Work - where do you draw the line?

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When I left university, I got a job at a quite well-known company, doing something that was vaguely in the field I wanted to work in. I enjoyed this job greatly for the first three months or so, quite frankly because it was something of a "cool" job with a supposedly "cool" and "progressive" organisation. I didn't mind that the pay was pretty low, that I would often work twelve hour days with no overtime, and that the learning curve was incredibly steep. After all, isn't that what work is supposed to be about?
Gradually, I was working more and more long days, often being asked to come in for the weekend just as I was putting on my coat to leave on a Friday, and despite working enough hours for two people, struggling with my workload. The "full training" promised to me in my job description turned out to be a half day sat with an engineer while he installed some software (all the while having to cope with new work as people brought it in). Unfortunately, I was the only person employed to do what I did, and taking a holiday or a sick day often resulted in a truly unmanageable backlog of work. The company paid for me to have a mobile phone, but I soon realised this was simply so that I would always be in contact - I would get calls early in the morning, while on holiday, and once when extremely ill in bed, I got a call from an irate co-worker complaining about the state of my office in my absence. When I protested that I was quite ill and unable to even move, he gave me a very insincere "apology", insisting that unfortunately, work was "a priority". When I had to take two days off to go into hospital for the same condition, my boss "ummmed and aaaahed" about for a while, saying that my absence "might be a problem".
Being quite young and not wanting to seem like I couldn't handle hard work, I would often soldier on silently, but soon I learnt to give some feedback about my workload. I was told that I needed to "be more flexible" and "learn to manage people's expectations". I was often responsible for some very high-profile projects and the pressure was fairly constant. This was a company that prided itself on being about "the individual" - you were expected to decide on your own hours, lunch breaks, etc. as long as you did your job. What this resulted in was chaos. With everyone responsible for themselves, everyone was potentially to blame. I would soon realise that my attitudes towards the company were also held by many other people, some of them much older (and wiser) than me, and who I had hoped would know better. I was amazed that people in their late thirties and early forties were still afraid to not come in that one weekend for fear of not seeming like a "team player". When I finally handed in my notice after a year and a half of procrastination, without another job to go to, I had some very senior people come up to me and congratulate me on "the right thing to do". Many of them said "I've been thinking of doing that, too". Of course, almost a year later they are still there.

So, my question to you is: Where do YOU draw the line? Is there really a job worth giving up your life for? Is it really satisfying to kill yourself with hard work and expect some kind of reward? Is it foolish and idealistic to think that you can do something you enjoy for every day of your life?

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Friday, 23 May 2003 07:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Why is it that I feel like a lot of the people on ILX have wonderful lives listening and writing about music, etc. and never feeling the cold hard stare of an evil boss on their shoulder? I know I'm probably far off the mark, but it's actually quite heartening to believe that some people are living an impossible ideal.

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Friday, 23 May 2003 07:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I always had the impression that pretty much everyone here has a boring day job to support their exciting dips into the world of rockcrit. I personally dread the idea, which is why I'm staying at university as long as I can get away with it.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 23 May 2003 07:56 (twenty-two years ago)

"wonderful lives listening and writing about music, etc." = feeling the cold hard stare of an evil boss on their shoulder a.k.a. CHUCK EDDY*

*Chuck I'm just kidding I love you please keep giving me work thanks

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 23 May 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i, having got my first permanaent full time job, am seemingly lucky. i dont have any real time commiments to work outside of the 9-5.30 paradigm, and when i leave for the day/week, i leave it all behind. however, the flip side is that i have no interewst advancing myself in the company particularly, like, to team leader or whatever, and it isnt really something i feel real interested in, or am really anxious about our products. so the bottom line is, at the risk of sounding obvious, that 99% if you want to do something that interests you, or you think will interest you/enjoy, you will either have to slave away and fell kinda let down, or do something shit and maybe surprise yourself in something lame that actually is alright. i havent gone iether way...just painlessly whiling away the time to gain $$$$$

to answer the question though, i could certainly imagine giving quite a lot to an emploiyer who did somehitng that i cared about, but i havent been able to get to that stage yet....and im not doing that at the moment

― @mbrose (ambrose), Friday, 23 May 2003 07:58 (twenty-two years ago)

That sounds awful, Nordicskillz! My last job was a bit like that, my boss and her boss would work very long hours and frown on people who didn't. When I first started I would feel pressure to work late but eventually I though 'sod it, I’m not being paid enough for this' and started working more normal hours (still above my contracted hours though). It was also a v busy job with never enough time to get everything done, but I often felt they would make work - producing 40 page reports when the important info was only two of them and the rest was 'let's make it look as though lots if going on and we're really great', minutes for meetings would have to be checked by both of them and amended to fit into their personal style (and then you would be moaned at for not getting them out quickly enough). Also, the two of them were having an affair, which made them v keen to be at work together and meant that they always went off to meetings together and I never did so I didn’t get the ‘on the job’ training I should have had and it was very difficult to ask for help. I was also sick a lot, which got worse towards the end with stress and I think they didn’t really believe me a lot of the time.

I would have appraisals and my boss would be enthusiastic and say ‘this should be an interesting project’ but there was never time to do anything that wasn’t just the day to day stuff so at the next appraisal I’d have to say I hadn’t done it and that would be frowned upon too. In the end my boss said my standard of work was not high enough - by which i think she mostly meant i wasn't doing everything exactly as she would - and we went through disciplinary procedures, which was nightmareish and I ended up leaving ‘by mutual agreement’. The moral in my whole team was awful because of their behaviour but the company as a whole was not too bad, though it was becoming bigger and more corporate and I think some people weren’t happy. When I left, again with nothing to go to, several people enviously said they wished they could change careers.

Now I am an administrator, which is probably a ‘step down’ but I work for a small company, with nice people, a boss who thinks I’m great and I’m being paid more than I was! Also, I heard that my boss and her boss have had all their people management responsibilities taken off them cos so many people were unhappy, hooray! (Exit interview feedback can sometimes work!).

Anyway, sorry for ranting on, it was horrible and I’m so glad I left and got a nicer job (where I can mostly lurk and occasionally post to ilx), though it is only short-term so I will have to start job hunting again soon, bah.

― liz (lizg), Friday, 23 May 2003 08:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Reading this thread, I feel quite lucky. I work normal hours, the workload is large but not overwhelmingly so, I'm involved in a variety of interesting stuff and the bosses like me. Shame I don't get paid enough.

― robster (robster), Friday, 23 May 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)

robster, I think that's exactly what I'm aiming for with whatever I do next. I think I can maybe deal with not getting paid quite enough if I don't feel like I'm walking into a nightmare at 9:00 every morning.

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Friday, 23 May 2003 08:20 (twenty-two years ago)

No you are not alone. It never ceases to amaze me just how shameless employers are in their endless exploitation, just take take take all the time and expect ppl to be grateful to lick the peanuts out of their excrement. What's even worse is their unshakeable conviction that this is the normal order of things! (I was told in my last full-time job, "We use the carrot-and-stick approach. But we're not exactly big on carrots, ha ha!" Yeah rite funny, laugh MOTHERFUCKERS) Now employment is unsteady and I'm constantly stressed to the point of existential despair by finances but it must be an improvement over wanting to kill somebody all the time. Well so I'm told, I'm just going by acquaintances telling me I'm acting less insane than I used to, so I'll trust them. Just thinking back on that job makes me feel like the Unabomber.

― dave q, Friday, 23 May 2003 08:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I have sworn never to get myself in a situation like that again, even if it involves severe financial discomfort. However, I've been freelancing and temping ever since, and it looks like I'm going to be back to square one when I move this summer. *gulp*

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Friday, 23 May 2003 08:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I still think the best way to deal with a boss ringing on a mobile phone out of hours is to enlist a friend or SO to answer it, or set it to go to messages when boss' number flashes up. You could be sitting there laughing while your pal says, 'he's out for the night, sorry' or if you are on holiday with your SO, she should answer and ask the boss if it's an emergency. If not, she would be within her rights to cuss a blue streak at the fucker for ringing at that time (nobody's been fired for having a bitchy girlfriend yet, have they?). Or, better still, buy your own mobile and leave the work phone where it can't get you out of hours. If the boss asks, just say you're keeping the personal and professional separate and give him a big happy smile. If he'd like you to be formally 'on call' out of hours, then really it should be in your contract.

I am happy to stay late at an office IF:

1. The boss buys dinner if we stay after 8pm.
2. Taxi booked by company to ferry me home.
3. Overtime or paid days off in lieu of same.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 23 May 2003 08:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm very lucky, but also quite firm on what I will and won't do. The company pays me for 35 hours. I therefore have 35 hours at work when I won't look at ILX or other such things (I waste some time chatting to colleagues, admittedly). I don't spend 36 hours at work. I am willing to stay in an emergency: I normally leave at 5, and have stayed as late as 5.30 3 or 4 times in nearly four years. I would never allow work to take over my life, because I don't care enough about job and career compared to everything else.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 23 May 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Early on, my boss asked me to meet clients after hours and on weekends and I said no. I knew that if I started doing those things, he would just expect it of me all the time. I work REALLY hard and I'm not about to give up any of my free time, even if that meant I would make more money. I have done a couple of things outside of work hours for no extra pay, but only when completely necessary.

I really don't see how people give themselves to their jobs. Maybe if I did something incredibly interesting this wouldn't be a problem.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 23 May 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

where are you moving to again Adam?

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 23 May 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.aboutfilm.com/movies/o/officespace-c.jpg

― Chris V. (Chris V), Friday, 23 May 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I am resisting the urge to write a fucking tome on this subject. But I will say this, Nordicskillz, you are definitely not alone. Solidarity, brothers and sisters.

― hstencil, Friday, 23 May 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I am happy to stay late at an office IF:

1. The boss buys dinner if we stay after 8pm.
2. Taxi booked by company to ferry me home.
3. Overtime or paid days off in lieu of same.

suzy, you're one of my favorite posters, and I love you, but you live in a magical fairy land with hats and leprechauns and whatever else that Homer Simpson quote says...

Is there any company that really does this?! Or is this just one of those things we've all made up in our heads?

I will NOT detail my job dramas here, but suffice to say, last time I was out sick, someone CAME TO MY HOUSE.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 23 May 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Ally, yes, some companies do that. A number have cut back a bit since the recession, but it's still somewhat common.

― hstencil, Friday, 23 May 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I see no proof!

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 23 May 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

It was policy both at the ad agency I worked at in Chicago and the Bank I work for now (until the latter cut back - but then again there's still some guy who shines dudes' shoes so whatever).

― hstencil, Friday, 23 May 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I have put up with the kind of job where you are not allowed to leave your desk, or speak, between 8.45 and 5.30, except to go to lunch, and the kind of job where I had to be on call for emergencies at the weekends.

Now, I very much have Martin's attitude. Having an uneven work/life balance is only ok if you love your job enough to actually WANT to integrate it that much into your life.

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 23 May 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Everyone should quit their job once in their life.

― jm (jtm), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

In the two years I have been working at this job I have had less than ten days off not counting weekends and stats.
I am kept at exactly one hour below official full time hours so that I get nil for benefits like medical coverage and holidays.
Plus, my job is defined in only the vaguest of terms so that I am at the beck and call of everybody, who will ask me to do everything from get them some post-it notes right the fuck now to mail their personal letters to translate from french to make bullshit TV appearances under the guise of a well-paid professional who looks forward only to death.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

when i worked for the porn company, you weren't allowed to leave your desk at all. You would have to call a supervisor if you needed to use the bathroom. Also, no talking to others.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

That was the glib reccomendation.

In my business 12 hour days are pretty much standard. I have my contracts written such that, seeing as how I'm not union, my hourly rate doubles immidiately after the first twelve hours and quadruples after 15. As a freelancer I need that kind of protection, otherwise production staff tries to go 14-16 hours without blinking. It's the sort of thing where people need to be able to foot the bill if you're going to run me that hard.

― jm (jtm), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I was talking to someone the other day about work attitudes, and I could tell she was horrified by my attitude (she worked for her own business) I'm paid to do 42 hours a week, I can't work earlier than 8.30, or later than 5.30. I'm on call all the time, along with all the other managers, so if the alarm goes off, I could be called out, whatever the time, but I get time off in lieu, and less well paid managers can opt for overtime. We're very understaffed at the minute, but no-one expects me to work any longer hours. On the contrary, my line manager is very understanding, and if I need to leave early, it's not a problem. We don't have a clock watching culture.

I have a contract, I'm paid to work those hours, I have responsibilities, and as long as I'm doing the work that should be expected of me, and I'm not slacking, then that's all that matters. If there's a tight deadline, then I'd get things done, but I'd make sure I was compensated at a later date.

Much better to have some things not done, but keep things ticking over while we're unstaffed, than have me work myself into the ground and then have me either leave or have a nervous breakdown. And if you're at full strength and things still can't get done in the necessary time, then you either need to spread workload more evenly, or get more staff in, or look carefully and prioritise, and accept that not everything can get done straight away.

Her comment was 'that's a very public sector point of view'...

― Vicky (Vicky), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha!

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyone read the recent Working Stiff's Manifesto by Iain Levison?
I did. It's fucking great. My ex-GF is reading it right now and she said it reminds her of me.
It's this dude who goes through a bunch of jobs that he hates and steals cable. And he's very funny. And probably handsome, since he reminds XGF of me.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought I should add, I am very committed to our unit, I feel very strongly about my work, and I'm ambitious, it's just that I have a very firm line that I draw, and I think that makes me better at my job. Rather than mope working late hours, I come in, get the job done, then go home again, at a reasonable hour, have my own life, and then go into work the next day a happy worker.

― Vicky (Vicky), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

You are my hero Vicky :)

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

even though we were quite poor, my mother never let me get a part time job while i was in the high school we couldn't afford, and so i didn't actually end up getting a job until after graduating. at that time, i did some temporary secretarial stuff---which i really and truly hated. one of the temp jobs was kinda cool in that it was for a company that did video games and pinball machines and stuff, and one of the perks of working there was that you could go to their testing facility (across the street from the offices) and play video games for free, as much as you'd like. problem was, no one really had much time to take advantage of it. in that department, the company would also buy us lunch; a menu from a different place would be circulated every day and we could order whatever we wanted, so long as we agreed to work through lunch. which wasn't so bad, really; it wasn't done in a particularly stress-inducing manner. eventually the assignment ended, but the fact that they asked rather than told us to work (at least, that was the impression i got) made a huge difference.

as to line drawing, with my last job, i definitely didn't draw it soon enough. there were several factors involved (aren't there always?), but it had gotten to the point where i was going home and crying almost every night due to how ridiculous things had gotten. while i'm certainly not in my ideal job now, i vastly prefer it to what i had previously---even though the commute is longer, the pay is less, and the benefits aren't as good. a lot of that has to do with the fact that the boss i've got is quite good, and the people i immediately work with are quite okay as well. incredibly bored, but at least i can listen to music while i work, and i look at it as funding the things that i do actively enjoy. well, once all the bills are paid.

― janni (janni), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I come in at 8:30, I leave at 5. I'm quite happy to work through lunch, but you're buying me lunch if I do, and if I work overtime past 8, you're buying me dinner, plus paying me for the extra time I'm here. I work for a union-side labor law firm, so though there are other shit things about this place, those rules are understood and agreed upon.

― luna (luna.c), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, my boss very frequently calls me ALL DAY LONG when I'm sick because she is useless on her own, and she called me EVERY DAY I was on maternity leave.

― luna (luna.c), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

jtm do you do video editing?

i generally show up to work a half hour late, leave a half hour early. i have a fair amount of free time which i spend on outside endeavors. but i've had the same position for two and a half years without a raise or a promotion and i get paid shit. so it kinda evens out.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Just asking the question in this thread makes me want to jump out of a window. I've worked the same number of hours in the past month as I have in the previous two combined, I think.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Vicky = OTM.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

This question makes me feel weird. I really love my job, it's one of those 'it's my calling' sort of things. But I overdo it.

M-F I'm up at 4:30a by the latest. Usually I get home between 6 and 7p but I prepare for the next day until I go to sleep between 8 and 9p. I'm on call 24-7. I mostly manage to stay away on the weekends, though.

I'm not in the habit of doing a lot of line-drawing.

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh I suppose I do insist on getting 8 hours of sleep a night, but this usually means my social life gets the short end, not work. But I'm kinda anti-social anyway. It works out.

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow those posts make me sound retarded.

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

not at all! Unlike most of us, you have a job you love. I would probably be the same if I loved what I was doing. My brother's the same way (and of course his job demands that there be no line). Unfortunately it just has never happened.

― hstencil, Friday, 23 May 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The one time I really enjoyed my work in the military I was doing a 12-hour shift job from 8 to 8. It was great. I had a clearly defined purpose and I had 3 days off every week (spaced out here & there). After that it was all downhill. I have 6 months left and then I have to start working like a normal person. Eek.

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

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