Three Minutes Silence

someone's now playing 'everybody hurts' by REM on the radio. i wish they'd stop.

Apparently Chris Tarrant played that on Capital yesterday, shortly after giving his ill-informed thoughts. Some people have got absolutely no idea.

All my firm were herded out to the front of the building where we stood and listened to cars on the A40 outside. I couldn't get a Madness tune out of my head. It felt empty and flaccid, to be honest - most of my co-workers were laughing and gossipping on the way out, stood around and looked pious, and then carried right on. Three minutes talking to friends and loved ones and people affected and scared, or three pounds in a collection box, is worth a lot more, and this applies to every 'silence' by the way, nothing to do with these particular circumstances.

I forgot all about it and was watching a video.

I forgot about it too, but don't think the stereo or the TV was on and I wasn't talking to myself so...

In 1997, the 2-minute silence on the Saturday morning for Diana's funeral was interrupted on the street outside my flat by... a car alarm.

strangely enough Tom I could hearthe rumble of traffic from the A40. Ours was well observed with some people being genuinely moved but, like you say, does it acheive anything?

ours was well observed as well. if it gets people to actually reflect on the enormity of it (which, as the media bombardment has been constant and i'm rarely alone, i haven't actually had that much time to so) and so be moved to take some positive action, then i'm all for it. it's also a symbolic act - we can't be there to help our friends and loved ones or even strangers, so we try extra hard to be there in spirit. it's like when you read those stories about separated lovers agreeing to gaze upon the moon at the same time, it establishes a sort of communality. you all know you're doing the same thing.

I should clarify and say that silences on anniversaries - Remembrance Sunday for instance - can be a good way of breaking through to people and making them think. But silences as a mass, imposed response to immediate grief and mourning have always seemed empty to me.

Yes, Katie's absolutely right, unity has to be the message here, not only today but in the coming weeks which will be a test of everyone's strength and resolve.

Tuesday's acts of mass murder were not only specifically targetted towards killing a large number of people, they undoubtedly had the wider aim of creating division, not only between different nations, cultures and religions, but between different ideologies. None of us must forget that.

Whatever our own differences of opinion, we must show respect and tolerance for each other, and demonstrate our solidarity against those who attempt to drive wedges between us.

I know it's meant to be Time For Thinking, but from here it filled the same sort of function as a funeral, a time when everyone, pretty much, just stopped to recognise what had happened - and in the times we live in, that the whole of a country (or continent) just STOPS is pretty amazing - and made it a marker, a point where we recognise the grief that we, thousands of miles away, are trying to express. Like a funeral, it's symbolic of these thoughts, not necessarily the best time to actually think in this way, and like a funeral it can act as the starting point for us to start working back to the rest of our lives.

Yes Mark but the whole of a country did not just stop, which was why it was a bad idea on my firm's part to have it out by one of the UK's major roads where we were getting proof that the country had not stopped at the rate of about a car every two seconds.

Trevor - I understand but disagree, because I think that in the broadest sense this IS one manifestation of a conflict between reason and unreason (or civilisation and un-civilisation if you like), and that disagreements and debate and analysis and individual response and being able, at any time, to talk stuff through is in the end the precise core value that 'we' are having to defend.

Tom, I will defend diversity and defend dissent to the hilt, because they are essential components of any so-called "free" society.

However, when the time for action comes the need for solidarity is paramount. What I don't want to see is an isolationist America, I would dearly love to see every nation reach a concensus, that irrespective of the genuine grievances that exist between nations both now and in the past, we can all agree that the actions of those responsible for Tuesday's acts of terror, irrespective of any underlying motivations, cannot and will not be tolerated by *any* society.

Now is not the time for division, for that merely plays right into the hands of those who seek to terrorise us.

Travor: the consensus you talk about has been reached - one thing that has genuinely surprised me (remembering cold-war-era responses to terrorist acts) is the extent to which even hostile countries have come 'on-side'.

What I'm saying is that at the level of individuals unity has to come from the bottom up rather than the top down, and that a unity of sympathy and feeling shouldn't automatically mean a unity of expression of that feeling.

I would not equate so-called "hostile" nations offering their public condolences with an expression of solidarity, or if it is, then it's only a representation of solidarity in its most superficial form.

I only had to watch Question Time last night to bear witness to how much opinion in this country alone is divided as to the way forward. I am quite surprised that anyone could even begin to suggest that any such concensus exists, especially at this early and tenuous stage.

It is my very real and legitimate fear that when the time comes to act on any information that comes to light, the solidarity you claim exists will evaporate very rapidly.

All I'm saying is that - compared to the good old days of states refusing to condemn attacks, threatening military support of attacked nations etc. etc. - the US has a vast amount of latent support for taking action. Realistically this is all that can be hoped for, and I'm glad of it, because of course the US should take action.

And of course there's division as to the way forward, because everyone is very aware that the way the US responds will have enormous long-term consequences. I'm not sure what you mean by solidarity, Trevor - that it should just be assumed that however the US responds is the correct response? That doesn't seem to me to square with the defense of dissent and diversity of opinion you were making a few posts back.

I sat here thinking of those poor pepole and what effects it must have had on their families. I sat, staring at my monitor, unable to get these thoughts out of my head.

Some people at my office looked out of our windows and saw that everyone in Town (our office locates right in our Towqn centre) had stopped walking for this 3 minutes' silence's duration. Wow.

Trevor said this: Tuesday's acts of mass murder were not only specifically targetted towards killing a large number of people

I dunno... In that case why not attack America's Statue Of Liberty? Its most iconic and best-known landmark? I think that would pretty much demoralise and devastate America to have that topple. Why such a crowded place as its WTC?

He said 'not only directed'

And I'm glad too Tom, the "latent support" displayed by other nations is a very encouraging starting point.

Solidarity is all about co-operation, it's about various countries sharing their resources in pursuit of a common goal, it therefore goes much further than mere verbal support or encouragement from the sidelines.

And of course, it's certainly not about blindly following America down whatever path they choose. The whole rationale behind NATO is based upon consultation between member states before any course of action is adopted. If that consultation procedure is not followed then that institution will be undermined considerably.

And no, I do not see putting one's differences and conflicts to one side in pursuit of a common goal as a contradiction. Not at all.

As there is an unequivocal recognition that this is a global problem, ie. *our* problem, we should recognise that everyone should have their say, and I certainly wouldn't want it any other way. And on a personal level, I can quite easily say that no other international event in my lifetime has had such a profound effect on me.

And like you say, compassion at a time like this can only be a good thing. Unless your name happens to be Dave Q of course. ;-)

Bush has proclaimed today a day of prayer in the us. He wants everyone to attend a worship service at noon. I don't think I will but it's not b/c my heart's not in the right place. On the way to work today a plane flew overhead. It was *so* loud. . .

A day of prayer might seem like a nice idea but what if you happen to be an atheist?

I was told the three minute thing was to think about what happened. Three minutes? It's all I've been thinking about for four days. I would like to be able to think about something, anything, else. I'm starting to feel like I'm suffocating under everything now.

A day of prayer might seem like a nice idea but what if you happen to be an atheist?

Yeah, I was just told we could watch the prayer service -- wasn't told which denomination -- in the conference room at 11 CST, and I feel the same sense of empty obligation as when we have to gather there for someone's birthday. The difference being that I believe in birthdays.

Also, some of this "solidarity" is just us turning ourselves inward -- again -- and to me this blind nationalism seems to be one of the problems that most needs correcting.

The difference being that I believe in birthdays.

and you get cake.

I don't see how a nice gesture amounts to blind nationalism. This is the issue that is affecting me right now, the amount of people now taking digs at gestures. A mailing list I am on had several emails last night tearing apart the chain emails going around about Red White Blue day and Flag Day and Candle Lighting. They're gestures of solidarity and respect for those who have died, will die and are currently risking their lives. What is so wrong with that that it's being torn apart? I agree, wearing red, white and blue on any day, much less one called National Day Of Rememberance, is tacky, but so what if that's what people want to do to memorialize the event?

If you're an athiest - which I was and probably still am - then don't pray. Don't attend the thing if it bothers you that much, I guess. It's just a gesture but it's better than nothing. I don't see how that amounts to "blind nationalism" or yee-haw-blow-em-all-up politicking.

I mean, I got into a screaming rage with Ramon on Tuesday night because apparently some moron kids at Hampshire College were having a vigil - he found it offensive that they were doing it and wouldn't explain why and I just lost it - it's a fucking gesture, and hopefully these people are doing more than just gestures, leave it be.

That's all, really.

Yeah, I agree Ally. I think maybe what people don't like is the 'you must do this to show you care' tone they perceive in some of the appeals. They react in a kind of 'who the hell are you to tell me how I should deal with it?' way, similar to your own reponse to those who slag it off. But yeah, tacky gestures in themselves - fine. No time for snobbery.

I agree, wearing red, white and blue on any day, much less one called National Day Of Rememberance, is tacky, but so what if that's what people want to do to memorialize the event?

Memorialising the event, finding closure, moving on, contemplating, in whatever way you the individual finds appropriate = undisputably classic. I totally agree.

Being told by your bosses that you will memorialise and contemplate in a particular way at a particular time = dud. Gestures can be important and meaningful, but only if they're fully meant by all taking part. That was my only point.

(10p in the chatter box.)

Sorry Ally, I did say "some," wrote in a diff. paragraph and put solidarity in quotes b/c it was in response to Trevor's post above. I didn't mean prayer = blind nationalism or even three-minute silence = blind nationalism.

Private, personal gestures of mourning and compassion, I'm all for. I've had too many in the past few days and we will have many more in the years to come. But solidarity w/o seeking knowledge of why these events have happened (are happening?) is ill advised. If I saw any balance in the dialogue about Tuesday's events it would be different, but the answers aren't -- and these aren't your answers, but the media's -- curbside check-ins, readying the military, and wearing red. Like Tom said, I'd rather spend the time connecting with people than in silence. We need to mourn but we need real reflection as well, and I truly fear that isn't happening.

Oh crap. Fixed it.

Yeah, being told by your bosses NOT to memorialise = even more dud! Blimey. Shop 'em to the news networks, heh heh.

About the "red white & blue" e-mails - what I objected to was not people's private choice to wear r,w&b or fly the flag. Most of the e-mails *I* saw, however, had a bunch of bullshit ideology tacked onto them about what "America" means and how this is the greatest nation on earth, a beacon of democracy, etc. One of them said I should fly the flag because "most Americans are decent, god-fearing people".

Because of this, I find it hard to separate flag-waving and red, white and blue with a certain way of thinking about this country that I don't share.

I had a much longer response written as to why I think wearing red, white and blue to honor those who died in this, but in the process of writing I realized that it all boiled down to one intensely personal thing:

My oldest brother was in the Air Force. Almost 14 years ago he was hit by a truck driver. He lingered in a coma for just over a month before dying. The Air Force presented us with an American flag at his funeral (as is customary), which I cannot bear to look at. The thought of millions of people wearing red, white and blue to honor those who died in this tragedy has linked itself to the hated American flag in my parents' den in my mind and I can't bear the thought of other people developing the same ugly connection between the colors of our flag and the death of a loved one that I have.

So, self-involved and self-loathing. Par for the fucking course. I want to go home, but I can't get on a plane.

"[...who died in this] tragedy is an awful idea"

I can see why people feel the need to memorialise but as for me I am staying in and keepin gto myself. I tend to giggle at funerals becasue I am a social fuckwit amd emotions make me nervous and silly. I wrote a poem about my feeling son the tragedy that no one will ever see and I am trying to just get on with normal life if I can, becasue thats what the terrorists DONT want me to do.

You didn't miss much, Mike. The plaza service sucked, mostly because I (and many other people, apparently), found it difficult to concentrate because too many people were shouting "U-S-A" as if it were a football game. It's a fucking remembrance. It sucked, I hated it. I came away angrier than before I went.

We had three minutes of silence at noon that the choir teacher said Bush had suggested and one or two minutes at one fifty that the school imposed. It wasn't a huge thing, and it didn't bring about huge emotions for most people because we've been thinking about it so much that three more minutes isn't earthshaking, but I think there was a symbolic benefit. It is very strange to me how this happened and yet where I live life goes on as usual, and having a moment when everyone is acknowledging it makes things seem more rational and connected.

After the three minutes at noon people started hugging each other, and I think that meant much more than the silence.

To fully complete the circle of hypocrisy, my office is doing NOTHING and I'm shocked to discover that I'm kind of pissed off about it. Indeed, I hear co-workers laughing about something in the background and while it would be the mark of a true bastard to deny anyone happiness, right now I feel like a true bastard.

I think that geroge W Bush.Does his best to do what he thinks is right because its hard to do a god job with a lot pepole secound guesing him the pulbic dosent now how hard it is!My qusetion is why the hell did you vote for him if you dont like him he does his best and you should be proud of the persedent of the U.S. thats what i think

Dude!

(name me one person on this thread who voted for that cunt, also)

(and fuck, man LEARN TO FUCKIN' SPELL YOU RETARD)

yeah, i've been meaning to ask myself why i voted for him when i hate him to the core.

My husband told me to vote for him.