RFI: Italy

Venice There's a bar called Paradiso Perduto in the north of venice in an area called canareggio. It is one of the best bar/pubs i've evr been to. It's a local for the trendies of Venice, the food is simple but great and the wine is cheap.

in Venice you should drink Spriss, Wine Aperol/campari and soda. Should cost ?0.50 at most.

If you want to drink in one of the piazza san marco bars. Choose the Florian. (the one nearest the Basilica). Drink at the bar right at the back. Ask for an Aperitivo Florian. Sit anywhere but at the bar and they will double or treble the prices.

Check out the fish market.

Also in canaregio there is a bar full of rowing memorabelia which is an old man's local and is great.

Avoid most of the Canale garibaldi restaurants by the Arsenale they are mostly rubbish.

There is a great pizza al taglio place in the Piazza san paolo

Try and stay round san paulo or cannareggio.

Milan, find Luinis of the piazza del duomo for panzerottis (deep fried savoury doughnuts filled with mozzarella and tomato).

Don't spend too long in Milan I don't really like it. Nicest area is the canals area in the south west of the city by a station whose name escapes me.

Travel by train round italy, but book in advance over the summer as much as you can. If you are under 26 there is a card you can buy that gives you 20% off all fares it cost 40000 lire when I lived there. If there are three or more of you you can get 20% off if you book the tickets together. If there are no seats try first class, its not that much more expensive Florence-Venice cost me and suzy about 80,000lire one way in first 18 months back (that was only £26 at the time ?40)

Tenax in florence is a great club, they run free busses from asquare not far from the station because, as with all italian clubs it it miles from anywhere. If you get a chance stop in Bologna (100km from Florence on the way to Milan or Venice) and go to the Link, probably best club in italy.

Bear in mind that a lot of clubs pack up and go to costal resorts over the summer. There will be nobody but americans in Florence in August.

totally true! the canals called Navigli, designed by Leonardo, are nice but don't eat there: shit food, high prices and mosquitoes (fuck! I know, I live 500m from there) green line:Porta Genova.

Also Duomo, La Scala, Pinacoteca Brera...
I think you could spend maximum 3 days in Milan, it's not a tourist's paradise. people is here for business...and dream of moving away as soon as possible

Corso como 10- ma allora sei un fighetto?
discover what that means here! : )

Will be in Bergamo on the 6th and 7th of July, Florence on the 8th and 9th (and the 10th?), and Ferrara on the 11th and 12th.

in florence, after your art overdose (i like sculpture so the bargello was my favourite), the museum of the history of science is great. it's got some beautiful astrolabes and you can also see galileo's finger in a jar.

milan i've only ever passed through so i've no nothing of the place.

in venice the main joy to be had is just wandering around. there's not much in the line of nightlife, though i'd second ed's recommendation of paradiso perdito, where in the winter they do a great hot spiced wine. in the night take advantage of the lessening crowds and head down every little calle that takes your fancy. you'll stumble upon great things and experience suitable thrills from the creepy atmosphere and echoes.

during the day make sure to go on a traghetto or two, they are cheap ferries that cross the grand canal at various points and use old gondolas with the seats taken out. unless you want to be a wus, you have to stand in them. if you get scared halfway across the gondoliers will start telling you how deep this part of the canal is and pretend to rock the boat.

if you have the time a trip out to another part of the lagoon is an interesting way to see the place in context, murano and burano aren't particularly interesting, but i would recommend torcello.

for places to eat i'd recommend corte sconta for fish and alla madonna for their risotto (even elizabeth david spoke highly of it). the best place i ate in there was found by following some local old men who looked like they were going for their dinner, it was delicious and about a fifth of the price of anywhere else. there was no menu and we just ate what we were given and, of course, i can't remember the name or location of it.

i'm just back from a week on lake como. the scenery is stunning. villa balbianello is well worth a visit, it is a place that seems to be the fulfillment of an ideal of beauty. if lake garda is similar than the food and night life won't be up to much but the location will make up for it. once again go on boats as much as you can. i think boats always make for a good holiday.

have a brilliant time!

My favourite thing of all when I visited Italy last year was the crazy Osspitale museum in Siena. It was a working hospital until just a few years ago, amazing when you see all the state of the place and all the Renais sance murals on the wall. BUT THEN EVEN BETTER you go downstairs the exhibits continue and it just goes deeper and deeper and there's hardly anyone around and you get totally lost and suddenly you're in this contemporary art exhibition space with spooky music echoing around and then you are in the library and chapel of some secret society. It's just great. The exhibits themselves are nothing special but it's the most amazing place, and like I say, no crowds at all.

Siena is much more fun to visit than Florence.

I'm looking at: 11-13 Florence, Venice 13-15, Lake Como 15-16, then on to Switzerland, Germany and the UK.

God I can't wait!

But I think that's because I was only a kid, and because my family did one of those punishing see-everything-in-two-weeks kind of runs through it (not with a tour group, but with a father who has the same obsessive-compulsive-scheduling-mania that a tour group has).

You know the kind of tour we took : where you average about five museums a day, and about three churches. Where you are shoe-horned into the Vatican with a stampede of tourists and pick-pockets. Where you can't keep the names straight ("are we in Ravenna, or are we in Siena, Dad?"), where your feet are blistered raw from cobblestoned streets, and where you get all your meals from train-station kiosks.

Since that first un-promising encounter with Italy, I've gone back two more times, and enjoyed each trip much more than the last. And now I am at the point where I like the country so much that I'm planning future European visits around it.

What caused the change of heart? Well ... I've found that once I got the requisite tourist stuff out of the way, I no longer felt obligated to do that with each successive visit -- which freed up a lot of my time there for doing other, more enjoyable things, like, for instance, doing nothing ... (and by "nothing", of course, I mean the Italian version of "nothing" : wandering aimlessly about the outskirts of town, people-watching, attempting conversation with strangers, admiring the art that's not in galleries, sitting down for a proper meal, etc).

If this is your first time in Italy, you should probably see all the sites that you're "supposed" to see -- because they really are worth the seeing (especially the Uffizi, if you have any interest in Renaissance art or sculpture or architecture). If you hate lines, then pass the time by people-watching or flirting or drawing or listening to music. Exhaust yourselves with everything that's been recommended by the ILXers, and everything that's been cited as a "must do" in the books and on the websites.

Then remind yourself to visit Italy again in a few years. This time, have no more than a date and a name on your schedule ("on tuesday the fifteenth we will be in Urbino") -- and even _that_ should be flexible, so that if you suddenly decide you want to spend two weeks in Como, it won't create a logistical nightmare with your train tickets.

On this second trip, avoid the "must do" -- you've already been there/done that. Instead, let whatever fills the day fill the day (it might be boring, or it might be fun. It might be crazy or it might be calm. You may find yourself in the Doumo, or in the San Siro. You may end up having dinner in somebody's 100-year-old apartment, or out in some sunflower-filled field somewhere). This sort of spontaneous, low-key tourism will give you a whole new appreciation for Italy, as well as a better understanding of the folks you meet there.

ciao. :)

i mostly want to eat, and see a skyline other than my own. just need some directions to start my wandering...

this RFI is also more of a general what to do, ie. lali puna is palying a show, check this site for listings, etc. anybody know of any non-tourist events?

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! I'm taking notes for my next trip. :)

also has anyone been to pordenone? if so: how far from venice? what to do?

does anyone know where i can find a map of northern italy on the web that has more than just the big cities?

Alloggi Alla Scala, a seven-room place run by Signora Andreina della Fiorentina, is homey, central, and tucked away on a quiet square that features a famous spiral stairway called Scala Contarini del Bovolo (small Db-€77, big Db-€87, extra bed-€26, breakfast-€7.75, CC, 5 percent discount for payment in cash, tell her when you reserve if you’ll be paying by credit card, sometimes overbooks and sends overflow to her sister’s lesser accommodations, Campo Manin #4306, San Marco, tel. 041-521-0629, fax 041-522-6451, daughter Emma SE). To find the hotel from Campo Manin, follow signs to (on statue’s left) “Scala Contarini del Bovolo” (€2.10, daily 10:00–17:30, views from top).

Yesterday's NY Times had this on the restaurants of Rome: http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/travel/26rome.html?th=&adxnnl=1&emc=th&adxnnlx=1143537437-fdWgEeQZ0jxnfh91O6yjjQ (Don't eat before lunch. I was starving by page two)

Florence: The best place in the city is "Il Latini" (Via il Prato, 68/r, 055/294766, closed sunday) but be warned, there is always a crowd outside. Tell them to book if they can (we were lucky: Sister's friend's boyfriend works there so we got in on short notice) and not to be polite: Push or don't eat :) There are two sittings, go for the later one. Stunning food. Otherwise there is always "Osteria del Boia" (Osteria del Boia Via Ghibellina, 70r Tel: 055 2638940) beside Santa Croce. Does an incredible Bistecca Fiorentina. Changed owners a while ago but no negative reports yet. Neither are touristy but it being florence everyone speaks English of a sort.

As to the others, can't be of any help. Hope they have fun.

ed, anything you can conjure up would be mightily apprciated. i know in rome they're staying on piazza navonna, if that helps.

If I think of anywhere else I'll put it in. Otherwise Piazza Navona is near enough Piazza di Spagna (and via della croce of course) that they can go so far as to have as many as TWO glasses of wine and get home safely :)

Don't worry about being out of place etc, the people in most places are there for the food. It's the very touristy places that'll try to fleece them and generally take away from their experience as a whole. That said it sometimes seems that Italy's very existence relies on tourism so it's harder to avoid than you might think.

Anyway, they'll be in all these romantic places: do you think they'll have eyes for anyone but each other? *sigh*

http://www.outlet-firenze.com/bottega_veneta_outlet.htm

in rome, there's a really good place just down the street from the pantheon, called due colonne. we had a good lunch there.

we spent two weeks in florence, siena and rome, and never had any problem with not speaking italian. sometimes we had to use hand gestures, and having good guidebooks is a big help, but in the cities especially english is usually enough to get by. (i heard an italian giving directions to german tourists in english, because it was the only language they all understood.)

http://www.ristorante-belvedere.it/

The Restorante Belvedere is on the beach and the fishing boats pull right up to it. They have an English version of the menu available, which they kindly offered to me. When I choose the Italian one, they were very patient with me when I butchered their language. There were a few tables full of tourists, but lots of locals as well. The food was wonderful and set me back about 30 euros for a three course meal with wine.

Fuck Florence if you want non touristy things - it's possible but it's so bloody crowded. It's a shame because obviously it's awesome in many ways. My sister in law is there now and seems to be enjoying it but it's still busy (obviously).Avoid the summer.

I've been to Naples in October/November and had good weather and the streets are a bit quieter. I don't find Naples terribly touristy, a lot of people en route to Capri, etc in the summer/autumn, but I loved the place, they've done a lot of pedestrianising over the last ten years which has improved yr ability to walk around without being run over.

Already vaccinated, already going midway through December until February.

Ed you had an impressive list upthread, anything you'd add/remove/change?

Florence is great in the winter / out of season. Even some of the big attractions are fine if you go at the right time (Palazzo Pitti first thing in the morning,etc).

I’m completely out of the loop on bars / venues but Nottingham Forest in Milan is great for cocktails.

Trains are superb. I think I did Milan-Napoli earlier this year and it’s painless.

napoli is an excellent city for walking about, lots of spectacular views. we stumbled upon a rad little bar/bookshop/record shop called perditempo which offered some agreeably experimental/eclectic DJing as we sipped our beers

Thanks ShariVari. Been to Florence before, beautiful place. Although can't remember if I did Palazzo Pitti. Spent a day at the Uffizi and alsop the Duomo. Also had the best panino in my life.

The trains are indeed excellent, last time I went Venice - Bolzano - Florence. Though I hear it gets progressively less excellent the further south you go?

Will check out Nottingham Forest. Enjoying the owners' salty replies to reviews on google.

Added Perditempo, thanks ogmor.

So far

Milan 18-24 December, then Venice. Seems like some good suggestions here?

https://www.modalitademode.com/rubrica-milano-en/36-hours-in-milan-not-ordinary-itinerary/

Florence being touristy- I still bring up how A Room With A View (1908) talks about Florence being touristy.

You still do, Carey

I bumped the other thread, but hey since we're here does anyone have suggestions/cool tips for Genoa, Elba, Sapri, or Cosenza?

bump

we def wanna go off the tourist track and into the south as far as time allows

it's one of my hits! wait who is S-?

I think the most south in Italy I have been is driving around from Naples to Amalfi, 2-3 years ago. I really like the white wine from Liguria/Genoa. Just remember "pigato" very crisp and easy.

excellent, tyvm

yeah we wanna head down to Calabria, where my wife's family (and like 90% of US Italian immigrants) are from. We're looking at a night in one of the smaller Amalfi towns on the way.

Have you already been down there? We have a local friend from Sicily that we want to visit with and we keep putting it off because we can't make seasons work out.

nope, first time in Europe for either of us

Bumping thread again with a non-standard RFI...

Before leaving for (but after booking flights to) Italy I've injured my knee.

Pretty much the worst thing I can do for it is stand for long periods, which really sucks for a place so rich in galleries and sites of antiquities. Walking long distances to is Not Good. At least sitting and gorging myself is still in (and er, worry about the resultant weight gain once the knee's better).

I'm in Bologna at the moment, no definite plans except need to get to Palermo by the 26th of January (though maybe go on the 18th to see Palermo vs. Salernitana).

Anyway, excited about the train from Napoli to Palermo - perfect sedentary sightseeing. Any other recommendations like this?

Bologna is excellent for just eating. I've been twice and don't have any memory besides eating and walking. But that is almost everywhere I go, I guess. Are you wearing a knee brace or anything?

It really is. More places I want to try than time I have to try them. Also been invited to a couple of people's houses for food which has been great.

Nah no brace, perhaps I should have looked into one. The physio said to take it easy, which I thought I was. Obviously not enough. Venice clearly not the best place if you want to avoid walking and stairs (also pretty much anyone's house in European cities).

Ugh Venice, city of people with rolling luggage. I have knee problems a lot. You should just go to the pharmacy and get a compression sleeve, or even an ace wrap to at least keep it stable and keep it from swelling when you do walk.

revised tentative itinerary:

fly to Amsterdam, stay a day, then plane to Nyons area in France for a few days

Nyons to Genoa, 1 -2 nights there

Genoa to Salerno and then bus to Minori (Amalfi coast) for a night

Salerno to Paola on the west cost of Calabria (the fast train goes this way)

Paola to Cosenza inland by bus, 3-4 nights total in Calabria

back to Naples for flight out to Amsterdam

has anyone here spent time in Calabria?

I only went to Genoa once, to change trains coming from the Cinque Terre, but there was a problem with our train and we got stuck there for several hours. The food in the Genoa train station cafeteria was ghoulish: I felt sorry that chickens died only to be prepared so miserably. I don't know what there is to do there besides eat, but that would be good enough for me.

Why are you going to Nyons?

to stay with friends for free! 3-4 days

I had not heard of Nyons, but I see that it's close to Montélimar, famous for its nougat which got it a mention in "Savoy Truffle".

haha noted!

I had not heard of it either but it's super, super close to vacqueyras/gigondas where I did a grape harvest.I've gone in and out of the Orange and Avignon train station a lot.

we would consider alternatives to Genoa anywhere on the Ligurian coast if anyone has recommendations, just stopping for a night or two because it's on the way to Florence

well the Cinque Terre is lovely! I haven't been for twenty years though. when we went we just showed up in Vernazza, asked at a bar if he knew of any rooms in town, ended up staying with the bartender's sister's family for a couple of days. a kind of proto airb&b I guess.

thank you, will investigate.

Genoa is worth it - a bit gritty with a real port atmosphere. The old town is dark, sinewy and interesting. Also it's a perfect base for some nice day trips, eg Cinque Terre but also Porto Fino, which off season is truly lovely.

Sestri Levante is a very nice medium-sized town that you can use as a base to visit the Cinque Terre, etc. It is pricy, but Hotel Vis a Vis is awesome with wonderful views of two bays.

I just booked for a trip to hike in the Dolomites in the first week of September. Does anyone have any recommendations on hiking (especially overnight stays in a Refugio), where to stay, restaurants, etc.?

I recommend 'Midnight In Sicily' if anyone is looking for a history of Italy focussing on the corruptions of Andreotti and a personal take of the years 1978-1992. It's in English.

Hi - I'm visiting Rome for 10 days in early April and my last European travel was Iceland in 2014... I'd be grateful for recommendations about anything Rome-related at all. I've lived in NYC for 20+ years and am not a seasoned traveler but my partner has spent time in Rome and is familiar with the language and city, so that's comforting to me. We have some plans while there but what would you do?? The only contribution I've added to our list of adventures would be to see some live jazz after a long dinner -- there seem to be a few places for that. Anyway, thank you!

For food, Katie Parla is your guide. Check her on Instagram, her podcast, and various publications for which she writes.

Try to get in to a classic Roman restaurant. Armando al Pantheon is the gold standard, but likely booked up already (check their website). If you get in, the chicken innard pasta is a must.

Baring that, Al Moro is also classic (including the gruff but professional service).

Il Goccetto is a very small and quiet (at least at lunch) wine bar with simple dishes like meat and cheese platters, salads, and pickled vegetables under olive oil. This is where I have lunch immediately after arriving in Rome. Some of the attraction is that it is our place, but I also think it is unpretentious and good.

Latteria Trastevere a great wine bar/restaurant in Trastevere with outdoor seating on a quiet lane.

Otaleg and Geletaria al Teatro for gelato.

Santo Palato, a neo-traditionalist trattoria, just closed and I suspect it won't reopen by then. Romané, by the Vatican, is a similar alternative. Great pasta carbonara (and other pastas).

Antico Forno Roscioli - Square pizza by the slice for takeaway (no seating other than one or two tables outside). They have about 20-30 kinds to choose from and are always cycling more in and out.
Forno Campo de Fiori: Pizza "al taglio" (sold by weight on the go) in central Rome on the Campo de Fiori. No seating. They may not speak English, but just use your hands to show how much you want.
Ai Marmi: A classic Roman-style pizza place. Open in the evening only. No reservations. There will be a wait unless you get there when it opens. Wood fired. Also try the fried baccala (fried salted cod).

Palazzo Doria Pamphili - A museum in the palazzo of one of Rome's oldest noble families with famous artwork and a fun audio guide.
Villa Borghese - Over the top with mosaics, Bernini, and great art. You need to book ahead.
San Clemente: A church from the 1100s, on top of a church from the 400s, on top of a 1st Century Roman Mithraeum (pagan temple).
Fontana dell'Acqua Paola: This is a fountain on the hills of Trastevere. The fountain is beautiful and there are views over the center of Rome that are worth the trip. Skip the Trevi Fountain and go here before sunset instead.

Also, Santa Maria del Minerva has a great chapel by I forget who and a Michaelangelo statue. Free to enter and not too crowded.

San Pietro in Vincoli is another church with free admission. The interior is unremarkable but for Michaelangelo's famous Moses statue. Absolutely incredible, if a bit crowded.

I haven't been keeping up with it but it was forecast the Papal Jubilee would cause chaos round the seven churches and routes between them because of the extra footfall. If your partner knows anyone there it might be worth checking out for spots to avoid.

Also I think do not underestimate just how busy the main attractions have become on the past couple of years - have seen video and heard tales of 2-3 hour waits at the Pantheon, St Ignatius etc.

My favourite thing is still Cripta det Frati Cappuccini, but I'm a sucker for an ossuary. Throw in a few incorruptible saint and other relics and I'm happy. Also worth a visit if you're in the area is Chiesa del Sacro Cuore del Suffragio, which has a tiny museum dedicated to the evidence of lost souls in purgatory at the side (and of course you should be in the area because it's less than a km away from Dario Argento and Luigi Cozzi's shop.)

Trying to think of eating places that I liked, and can only really remember Ristorante Mazze near Palazzo Barberini as one we really liked. Le Tavernelle exciting if the Fermi connection does that for you.

My standard recommendation is Dar Poeta in Trastevere, a local friend took us there and we went back the next night, might be my platonic ideal pizza place.

There's a little mid-price bistro in Ponte called Mimì e Cocò I'd recommend.

has anyone ever been to studio 33?

only been to rome once, for a wedding, but an italian friend advised me to a bar/restaurant called ai tres scalini, and i really enjoyed it: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1G1ZUGVHnFcCkhpq9

it is sort of as much about the beautiful street it's on as the food itself, and it's not like the best food in rome or whatever, but just incredibly friendly and has a very memorable vibe.

sistine chapel is the most breathtaking thing i've ever seen and i'm not a practicing christian.

if you were in milan for a work trip but had only maybe one or two hours of personal time max what would you do???

Thank you so much for these recommendations!!!!

Last Supper or the Duomo. As Ed said right near the beginning, I don't really like Milan that much but they are two of the best things in all the world.

The Last Supper is the most engaged and moved I've ever been by a work of art, and I'm not a practising Christian.

Botinero a seriously slept on restaurant in Milan, football themed (because it's owned by Javier Zanetti) Argentinian steak restaurant. Weirdly though in addition to the memorabilia it has screens everywhere showing Sky Sports News so is like a stupidly high end sports bar.

if you were in milan for a work trip but had only maybe one or two hours of personal time max what would you do???

― 龜, 19 March 2025 21:05 (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

san siro tour, the other cathedral

oh yeah, get it while you still can

Driving in Italy: pretty fun if you're a confident and assertive driver, almost like a video game. The roundabouts or junctions where people enter from both directions and leave in both directions with no lane markings whatsoever are wild. Merging on to motorways is pretty dicey, luckily I never had to do it on to a really busy one. My favourite terrible road design was where the authorised signposted route is to drive from a small side road through a gap in a crash barrier, over a pavement and down a small kerb, straight on to a dual carriageway.

tangentially reminds me to recommend the Gardens of Ninfa, outside Rome. the experience really is like walking around some sort of enchanted land - v much the original intention of course. i assume despite the gloomy augury at the end of the article that they are still thriving...

(tangent was we got public transport out of rome to the gardens, and on departing found there were no more buses. the wife of the owner of the local bar said she wouldn't hear of anything else other than giving us a lift back herself - the drive itself was uneventful however, and contained nothing like ledge's comedy diversion...)

I remember visiting the monster park in Bomarzo a few years ago - 2018, more than a few years ago. That involved a train ride and then a bus ride from Rome. My enduring memory is of seeing someone standing in this balcony using a basket on a pulley to lift their shopping from street level. It was a peaceful place, out of the way, slightly odd because it's on a hill and the houses all appear to made of bare stone. The estate agent boards were melancholic. I could literally buy a flat in Bomarzo with cash right now. But what for. What would I do with it. Could I catch enough rainwater and shoot down enough birds to not need money? I would use solar power. But without internet access, what am I.

The same is true of Barga, which is also really awkward to reach. The station is, as the crow flies, only around half a kilometre from the edge of town, but the only road is a fast uphill switchback with no pavement, so you have to take a train and then a very short bus ride. I saw a red telephone box that had books in it. The town is apparently full of Scottish people.

In both cases I went to the best restaurants in town. Imagine the kind of restaurant you would visit, but slightly better. I spoke with the head chef and the proprietor in Italian. I gave them some tips on cooking and they clapped me on the shoulder and said "what a guy".