Terrorist action 9/11/01 and the aftershocks

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Time to slightly retitle things...

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 15 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

...and to give it a place in new answers.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 15 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ned, if you can do it, I think you need to revise the title of this thread to put "11" somewhere in it, so that people will realize that it is a continuation of this thread, and so that people looking for the latest thread in the series will go here.

Frank Kogan, Saturday, 15 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Um, that is, since the number "11" is already in the title as part of the date, you should put the phrase "Thread 11" in the title.

Frank Kogan, Saturday, 15 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

We'll have to let DG sort that one out, as he is Mr. Moderator.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 15 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Or you could start a new thread now, with "Thread 11" in the title, with a link from this one.

Frank Kogan, Saturday, 15 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I ntelligent explanation of what it is to be a moslem in this situation

Ed, Sunday, 16 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'll sort it out later when I do some categorisation, and then everything will be wonderful.

DG, Sunday, 16 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Don't know if it was ever mentioned again, but the band I Am the World Trade Center has updated their site explaining what they'll do about the name. Nice little post, actually.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 16 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

And in the meantime, here's a view of the WTC site from above. Ugh.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 16 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Don't know if anyone has linked to this disturbingly vivid report on what it was like to be in the WTC when the attacks came.

http://salon.com/people/feature/2001/09/14/dboyle/index.html

scott, Sunday, 16 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Re: "I Am the World Trade Center"

The free mp3 download ("Metro") at the site Ned linked to is a lovely little song.

scott, Sunday, 16 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

HAHA! Ned you are so about being bitch-slapped for that when Frank gets back!!

Now Mark, why would I bitch-slap Ned for inadvertently suggesting a similarity between Jacques Derrida and Nguyen Van Thieu? I think the suggestion is intriguing.

Frank Kogan, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This makes me feel slightly ill, and I'm not sure if I can work out why. Hokey idiom? Historical inaccuracy? Blind nationalism? Yuck.

Sam, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tariq Ali was on the radio this morning. Normally he annoys me, but he was pointing out the interesting fact that most (all?) of the 18 names of the hijackers were Saudi. He mentioned the specific part of Saudi Arabia they originated from, but I've forgotten it. Anyway, the point is, NO ONE has mentioned this in the media. I mean it should be like a major point of interest in discovering who did this but no one's interested. The obvious conclusion Ali made was that no one wants to upset our allies the Saudis. Easier to pick on poor, relatively uneducated Afghans than well-educated middle class Saudis. It's sad. But why is the media so complicit in this drip-drip disinformation?

Nick, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(erm am i allowed to say "alleged" hijackers?)

mark s, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes, OK. But they're dead so they won't sue.

Nick, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I should also point out that 'they' in 'they originated from' means 'the names'.

Nick, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Bin Laden - of course - is Saudi.

Pete, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Not technically, he was but the Saudi government took away his citizenship for plotting against the royal family didn't they?

cabbage, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Al this and insider dealing too!!

Tom, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If you go just slightly right to the park area in that arial photo and directly left of the crash site, you can see our hotel.

Took me several hours to get back to the city last night - in the Bronx, they made the bus go back to New Rochelle, then back to the Bronx, then to Washington Heights, then over the GWB to Jersey, then down to the Lincoln Tunnel, THEN into the city. It was mad insane. A good 60% of the trip was spent circling the city.

The crash site is still smoking badly.

Ally, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The smoke is like a literalization of the dread that hangs in the air and won't quite go away. I wish it would stop.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

T his makes me feel slightly ill, and I'm not sure if I can work out why.

That it's on an ISP called "Zianet" is certainly odd.

Kris, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Look at this letter from Greil Marcus in today's Salon. Wow.

Kerry, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Today was the first day of work. I hugged my bosses and it didn't feel odd.

I found out that, contrary to what I had been told, the firm kept its monthly network tape back-ups not off-site but in a safe somewhere in the WTC basement.

I had things I could've been doing, but since I won't have a phone or a desk until tomorrow, and I won't have a computer until Friday, I was basically doggy-paddling all day.

Me and my fellow co-worker in marketing had an impromptu meeting in a conference room with an unobstructed view of Citicorp Center. I can't look at the building without imagning jet airplanes crashing into it. All these tall buildings seem so vulnerable now.

The head of the graphics department is going to be a crucial factor in recreating our marketing materials, but he's completely lost. He's focusing right on re-creating our time sheets, which is really pure trivia because we can use NJ's sheet, and we need other things to be done first, but I'm not going to press it, because I know he won't listen, he'll spend the next few days staring at the screen, doing things at random, deaf at any entreaties to prioritize. He was that way before, but he'll be worse now. He mused over some digital photos of the WTC a week before, and then he left early.

I headed to a bookstore several blocks uptown and killed time, looking through Wayne Kostenbaum's new Andy Warhol bio. I also checked out the latest New Yorker, and while I could honestly say I agreed with nearly every sentence of Susan Sontag's essay-lette, her tone royally cheesed me off, probably out of all proportion. I wanted to say something "the ungraciousness of the professional know-it-all" but any more than that would be me talking out of the side of my neck.

Watching MST3K last night gave me an idea I have to work on at greater length: the Godzilla/Gamera movies are the WTC tragedy played out as farce.

Michael Daddino, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That Greil Marcus letter in full:

"I don't believe Arabs and/or Muslims all over the globe give a damn about the Palestinians. If they did, as fellow Muslims they would be as enraged and committed to rectifying injustice in the Sudan, the Philippines, Indonesia and so on. I do believe they hate Jews, and I do believe anti-Semitism is the reason non-Muslim and non-Arab nations have helped keep the Palestinian conflict at the center of world politics since the 1960s. It is the intolerable presence of what used to be called "the Jewish state" in the Middle East that drives the external and presumptive support for the Palestinian cause, as an insult and an offense that must be removed. Don't kid yourself that Arafat, who again and again, to Arab audiences, without Western reporters present, calls for the destruction of Israel (as no Israeli government has called for the destruction of the Palestinians), and whose operation supports and sustains both organizing and propaganda for suicide bombers, promising money to their families and paradise for the martyrs, wants anything else. --Greil Marcus"

*Somebody's* cheesed, that's for sure.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 17 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Griel Marcus can go fuck himself. I'd boycott Chez Panisse, except I could never afford to eat there anyway. I was actually kind of proud to live in Berkeley for a couple days before reading this crap.

Kris, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

BTW, since this shining light of the Berkeley cultural aristocracy seems perfectly comfortable making paranoid ad-hominem statements about half the world, I'll make one about him. How different would his tune be if Dylan's real surname was Abdullahian?

Kris, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The argument 'Arabs concern for Palestine is illegitimate because they dont care as much about Indonesia' is pretty much the same as 'Western concern for the US is illegitimate because they don't care as much about [insert tragedy here]' - i.e. it overstates the regrettable truth that human beings care more about people they are close to and can identify with. Yes many Arabs resent the establishment of Israel, but I very much doubt if any of the "external support" for the Palestinian cause would also support the destruction of that state.

Incidentally, how strong was the anti-Semitic streak among Arab nations before 1947?

Tom, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I suppose its good to see the other side of the extreme being spun in the media. Now if we can just find the fucking middle.

Historically it is grim. Arabs and Jews have been in conflict since Muhammad. It is unfortunately ingrained into the texts in such a way, that as with the Bible, people can read it as a way to justify hate.

bnw, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Headlines in today's online Denver Post, under the category "Day of Terror": Day of Terror:
--Markets absorb blow
--N.Y. financial community rises to challenge
--New York gradually regains its rhythm
--Hostility to U.S. brewing for years
--NFL keeps 16-game regular season
So my question here: Is the NFL 16-game season likely to reduce or counter hostility to the U.S., or will it only continue to exacerbate the hostility?

Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oops! I don't know if this will do it.

Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Jews and Christians have been in conflict since before Muhammed. The goyim have been resentful ever since we got our running dog lackeys the Romans to kill Jesus. Jewish and Arab conflicts precede Islam too.

Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

sad news: a local Pakistani man who ran a conveince store was murdered yesterday. No money was taken from the register so it's being treated as a hate crime. assholes.

Samantha, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Has anyone seen the slides that are going round the net of the disaster? I was on MSN last night and my friends were asking me did I want it transferred. I thought about it for one second and just realised, No, I don't want to look at slides of burning rubble and explosions, I realised I've not been watching the News, I buy the paper every day normally on my lunchbreak and I've stopped, I don't listen to the radio in the car even. I can't stomach any more coverage of this event, or any threats of war, and I've stopped doing all these normal things without noticing it hardly.

Ronan, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Marcus is a good man, but logic has never been his strong point. The more "political" he gets, the more simpleminded he gets. And to say that he's prone to overstatement is an understatement. "They hate Jews," for instance, is not the most nuanced and perceptive explanation that's possible here. But I do think that Tom's analogy misses the point of Marcus's second sentence. I'd restate Greil's idea to be that overall (that is, except for those directly affected and for those many Arab and Muslim individuals around the globe who do care), the Arab and Muslim worlds as a whole only officially care about the mistreatment of Arabs and Muslims when the mistreatment is perpetrated by Israel - contrast this to the general international indifference to the situation of Muslims in the Philippines, Indonesia, Iraq, Iran, Algeria, the suppression of Shiites by Sunnites and Sunnites by Shiites, the suppression of "fundamentalist" Muslims by nonfundamentalist Muslims and vice versa, etc. But I don't think it follows that the concern for Palestinians is fake. Just that it's easy, with Israel the safely demonized perpetrator. Just as it was easy for the U.S. to care about the Afghani Muslims in 1980 who were fighting the Soviet-supported government, but to basically not give a shit for their welfare after the Soviet withdrawal.

Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I suppose it's good to see the other side of the extreme being spun in the media.

I don't understand this. In the U.S. media, at any rate, I'm only seeing one side being spun. I haven't seen any major U.S. newspapers or networks describing the U.S. or Israel as terrorist states. Not that they should, but if you want the other extreme, that's it.

Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Good points Frank. Though a reason I've heard given for Muslim states' refusal to recognise or support the Taleban regime is their oppression of the Shi'ites in Afghanistan - the divisions within Islam, actually, are another factor making demonisation of the religion by more headbanging commentators stupid.

Tom, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You are right that most the country and media has not spun the anti-American stories. But it can seem that way when you are in a liberal college community, where its popular to follow the progressive left i.e. Chomsky and others. Also, there have been times I've been here on this board, or others, where I've felt like the lone Israel supporter.

From memepool.com: There is more to this tragedy than you are likely to learn from television. We need to understand the context of this impending "War on Terrorism."

To me, that is appallingly one-sided.

bnw, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't understand. Until recently in this thread, and very recently on another thread, I haven't seen much about Israel on this board.

Kerry, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I came into work today using the same Bay Shore/Brooklyn route I did last Tuesday. The smoke in lower Manhattan I'm now used to. But I took a different train than I used to (for obvious reasons), and instead chose one that could take me to a place on Fulton Street only a block away from ground zero. When we got there, I understood there was nothing preventing me from getting out of the car and walking up those steps and confronting, for the first time, the memory with the reality. I turned numb.

I've seen the new subway maps that feature a small blank space on Manhattan that wasn't there before.

I've said that I can see the Citicorp Center, to my mind the epitome of '77-era NY corporate glam; now I've noticed that if I strain hard enough, the Chrysler Building is on the other side of the view. I pieced together a paper model of the place back when I was eleven. It's still my favorite skyscraper of them all. The two together are my guardian angels.

Work was slightly more productive today. I didn't eat lunch. I spent my time in reverie at Border's again. I bought an album of Bach organ works but I can't bother to listen -- everything, include my MST3K tapes, can only be consumed ambiently.

People have been going inside the WTC concourse now. An AP report made reference to the Warner Brothers Studio store and the enormous tacky-ass Bugs Bunny statue that's been on sale at the WTC nearly as long as I've worked there. There's been footage of the escalators that lead down, down, down to the nearby watch shop and its stopped clocks. The disaster robbed me of a place that, in my more confused moments, I say I lived rather than worked in; now, with the berubbled basement concourse the subject of media exposure, my subconscious is being burgled.

They've been raising the spectre of biolgical warfare on the news and now I have these horrorshow images of cropdusters with Sarin or Anthrax over Central Park...I can't stand it. I want to throw up. They just talked about a thwarted plot against the American embassy in Paris on CNN. The Sunday NYT spoke of satellite images of terrorist training camps showing dead animals. And the nuclear power plants...

I had been wondering what had happened to Big Brother USA 2, and tonight I found out. They were beginning to prep the audience for what happened inside the house -- of course, they told them -- and they I realized: Oh God. Monica's from Brooklyn. They explained she had a cousin in there and before I could react...well, of all the things the networks have shown, I don't think I've see reaction shots of people being told the bad news. Even tapes of people witnessing the attacks have been without visible faces, IIRC. Until tonight. Next to the leaping bodies, this may be the most tasteless thing I've seen all week.

Michael Daddino, Tuesday, 18 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

From The Guardian: "German composer Karl-Heinz Stockhausen has apologised for describing last week's atrocities as "the greatest work of art one can imagine"" - I'd missed this story!

Tom, Wednesday, 19 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

He apologised!!!? Pussy.

dave q, Wednesday, 19 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I mean, if he didn't 'mean' it, he shouldn't have said it in the first place.

dave q, Wednesday, 19 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i hearf mark lawson on radio 4 discussing this with this american guy who was about to host a stockhausen festival. the american guy said that he thought the comments were misjudged but taken out of context.

it seemed to make sense at the time.

i mean, not really, and just seeing those words on the screen makes me think 'what da fuk?' but they talked about where he had said it and stuff and the context and it seemed to make more sense and be less outrageous. its something to do with charachters in his new work: the angel michael, lucifer etc. and the works of the devil.

ambrose, Wednesday, 19 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Quotes of the day:

"There is just so little to attack. It is the most target- impoverished environment conceivable." - Unidentified former member of the Clinton administration, speaking of Afghanistan.

"James Lee, 70, from Chehalis, in north central Washington State, spoke for many when he said the disaster was not 'going to affect our spending habits.'" - New York Times

Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 19 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Re Stockhausen - the quote would be cool if he was renouncing art.

dave q, Thursday, 20 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

In today's 'Metro', p7, the headlines are 'Blunkett Warns Islamic Extremists', along with something about '43,000 Asylum Seekers'. The top half of the page is a crowd scene featuring bearded anti-US demonstrators, upon which is a superimposed a seven-year old brandishing a toy machine gun. Closer inspection reveals that the picture was taken in Pakistan. I think people should take notice whenever things like this are juxtaposed in such close proximity in newspapers.

dave q, Thursday, 20 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Stockhausen:

What happened there, is - now you have to adapt your brain - the greatest artwork that has ever existed. That human minds can [achieve, also "perform"] something in one act that we couldn't dream of in music, that people [could] rehearse like mad for ten years, completely fanatically, for one concert and then die, that is the greatest artwork that there is in the entire cosmos. I couldn't do that. In contrast, we as composers are nothing.

It is a crime for the reason that the people [i.e. victims] had not agreed to it. They did not come to the "concert." This is clear. And no one announced to them [beforehand] that they were going to bite the dust. What happened there on a spiritual level, this leap from safety, from what is taken for granted, from life, this occurs poco a poco in Art. Or it is nothing.

My friend John reports that György Ligeti, asked to comment, replied to the effect that if Stockhausen actually said this, it shows that he really should be locked away in a mental institution.

So who has more skilz, 2pac or Stockhausen?

Frank Kogan, Thursday, 20 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The Czech angle on the story:

Brno pensioner recalls saying "fuck you" to bin Laden

BRNO, Sept 18 (CTK) - Brno pensioner Adolf Grunt, 68, told CTK today of a five-minute meeting he had with Osama bin Laden in Sudan in 1992 and of learning afterwards that the "arrogant" man had been bin Laden.
"We met during the building of a motorway in Africa. He behaved so arrogantly that I told him where to get off," said Grunt.
Bin Laden's building company was working on the construction of an airport which the motorway led to. "The bin Laden firm didn't ring any bells at the time," said Grunt, adding that bin Laden's company had not carried out the construction very well. At one point Grunt and bin Laden, whose identity Grunt did not know, had a heated argument. "I used the well-known English phrase 'fuck you'," recalls Grunt.

Nick, Friday, 21 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Why Stockhausen would be lousy as a rock critic: he evaluates on the basis of how the piece is made rather than what it does. But he does make a good comparison in regard to the obsessional nature of terrorism being like the obsessional nature of being Stockhausen.

Frank Kogan, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

'Why Stockhausen would be lousy as a rock critic: he evaluates on the basis of how the piece is made rather than what it does.'

Perhaps that is his strength though, as evaluating the production process is less prone to corruption by perceptual factors than evaluating (even registering) the effects.

dave q, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)


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