Hollands greatest artist......

[he looks up and finds the new answers board with a 40 yard, cross- field ball]

Vermeer often took a dive in the penalty area, but otherwise reigns supreme...

Omar as in "There's Nothing Like This"? Odd.a lot of the 70's Dutch playres were unbelievably cool (Rep, Jansen, Neeskens) but Cruyff was the coolest.

no Jonnie, you cheeky boy, Omar as in Omar who has been quiet lately on this here board. I want your input here Omar! and more recommended reading too.

Drink a glass of cold, champagne wine......

In Belgium we have Pfaff. I don't think you can have'em any dumber than Pfaff. But he was a fantastic goalie.

Van Dyke, surely, or does he not qualify for A) spending too much time amoung the artless English and B) actually being Flemmish?

And a handsomer man I've seldom seen, a fine Dandy and the 17th century equivalent of dronerock boy (they were all dirty in history) with his lovely blonde bowlhead. Is it wrong to lust after long dead artists? I think he and Egon Shiele should fight for a prize of being almost prettier than the art they created.

Someone mention J.C. :) The greatest footie player ever? I actually saw him play a lot of times as a kid. Even was there when he made his come-back in 1981 against Haarlem. Ah full stadium, everybody tense with expectations...can the old master still do his magic. After 20 minutes Cruijff gets the ball makes some moves and outside the area chips the ball over the keeper. Grown men fell into each others arms with tears in their eyes. We won the league that season with some great footie. Also has a way with words, i'll check my Cruijff book of quotes one of these days, most of them are too Dutch I fear for a translation.

Gotto go now, tomorrow more on Cruijff ;)

Always prefered the Flemish Primitives, myself. Van Dyck is indeed from my parts. But then around that time, I think the Flanders was part of the Netherlands, hence the confusion?

In the top 5 of all time, almost certainly. If he hadn't retired before '78, Holland would most probably have done it. They would still have been gubbed by us, of course :)

In '74, peerless. Ajax's 3 in a row in the European Cup are also testament to his genius. And then there's that turn, like poetry spinning off a page.

BUT: As cool as Platini?

I always thought Platini was a little bit overrated. That's not to say he wasn't a fantastic player but he seemed to attract all the plaudits and yet he was one member of a fantastic midfield. As far as I'm concerned Tigana was the best player in that French side, Platini had a tendency to go missing in some of the larger games I thought. Would Van Basten have been able to eclipse Cruyff had he been able to have a longer career?

The Low Countries were part of the Hapsburg empire until The Netherlands broke away. Modern Belgium didn't, though post- Napoleonic attempts at re-uniting them quickly ended in tears.

As for Cruijff, if you don't like football revering the man so highly must seem a touch hyperbolic, but JC was a sporting genius, the most gifted European ever to play the game (Platini, close but no cigar). My first ever hero, posters on the wall etc dazzled by his genius in the '74 World Cup. He was used by Shredded Wheat in their ads and though I've never particularly liked the stuff but for weeks I'd eat nothing else at breakfast.

I'm not questioning the fact that Cruyff was a better footballer than Platini - I think he was. But Platini always looked really cool. Mind you, so did Cruyff.

Yeah, Platini looked very cool, always the shirt over shorts, that weird hair, the way he looked so slow. Those free-kicks, true works of art. France '82 still are one of my favourite footie teams ever.

Van Basten could never approach Cruijff, he was world-class of course, but in the end just a very good striker. Whereas Cruijff was more of a dominating player. Gotta go, already my girlfriend is giving me static over "dat klote voetbal gelul". ;)

LOL. Niet over voetbal lullen Omar.

Not only that, but I have been wasting a lot of time lately on the Ajax-boards with endless discussions if that bastard Adriaanse (arsehole manager of Ajax) is destroying our club by playing with 5 defenders. Needless to say classicists (read Cruijffianen) like myself are not happy.

Anyway, Cruijff always has had a way with words. But he also is struggling with language as if it, a la Heidegger, isn't equipped to really say what he wants. Not without controversy, there is a sort of Calvinistic strand in Dutch sport writing that loathes his seer-like quality. Fuck those humourless arseholes. ;)

Cruijff had an amazing world cup as a commentator in '98 when before games he would talk about the essential effects of the wind in Marseille, the wetness of the pitch or comparing the South-Korean defense to goat's cheese. :) Of course something of the Amsterdam charm gets lost in translation, but these are some well-known quotes, starting with arguably his most famous:

Every disadvantage has its advantage.

Football is simple, but the most difficult thing is to play simple football.

The difference between good and wrong is often nothing more than 5 meters.

Before I make a mistake, I don't make that mistake.

...and my favourite because it's so amazingly true is:

Italians can't defeat you, but you can lose from them.

he's fantastic, my favourite quote at the moment is:

"If I had wanted you to understand I would have explained it better"

he's a belligerent old soul though, after re-reading the Barend and Van Dorp book, he seems so argumentative, but not in a bad way, just more out of sheer bloody mindedness and/or mischief.

What's your view on Jordi, Omar? He was at Ajax and then followed his Dad to Barca before his ill-fated trip to Old Trafford. Was it all nepotism? he's at Alaves now and not doing too bad, but he's such a different player to his Dad it makes me wonder what he taught him in the backyard.

Ajax, playing with 5 defenders? It's enough to give Kroofie another heart attack!

and Van Basten, he was a box player, he could never exert the influence that Cruyff did, I'm not sure he would have fitted into the total football ethos at all, I can't remember him making too many tackles, but then with some of the goals that he scored you wouldn't really mind would you, particularly *that* volley in 86.

Did anyone else used to visit footofgod.com before Fifa shut it down, that had some of the best footy clips I've ever seen.

88, sir. ;)

yeah footofgod rocked! I still have a couple of clips on my desktop, esp. the great Platini free-kick with St.Etienne against PSV. And the great gallery of Dutch canonballs: Haan against Germany, Haan against Italy and Jonk against Torino. Bastards why did they shut that site down? :(

Ah I forgot another message above:

------- he seems so argumentative, but not in a bad way, just more out of sheer bloody mindedness and/or mischief. -------

yeah, sometimes out of mischief and he's always searching for new ways to look at footie. As a commentator he almost never repeats himself. Of course if you against him, he'll never leave you alone as Van Gaal has noticed, although he's quite subtle about it.

Jordi. Well, he could never match up really. Isn't fair of course. He is a decent player though. He played some great games at Barca. And Alaves suddenly played Ajax-style one-touch footie (I wonder why?). But physically he's too weak, too many injuries. Something his dad always avoided, they just could not get at him.

------- Ajax, playing with 5 defenders? It's enough to give Kroofie another heart attack! -------

Yeah, because in his view 3 defenders are quite enough, otherwise you'll miss a player elsewhere. ;)

of course it was 88, how silly of me.

Footofgod was closed down due to copyright infringement apparently, there's a message on the website now urging people to e-mail fifa to get them to allow it to re-open, they've even offered to hand over all the footage to create an official archive but Fifa say thee nay :- (

I have the best goal ever from it (according to them), a beautiful move and finish from Kazi Deyna.

Omar, are there any other good books about Ajax/Cruyff/dutch footy, I've read most that I can find and they've been excellent, unfortunately to find more I may have to learn Dutch.

You probably have read David Winner's 'Brilliant Orange'? That's the only book you really need. That man speaketh the Truth! Other than that I'm not sure about any translations. As a kid I read his autobiography as told to...with the great title 'Boem.' IIRC. Essential viewing is the film "Nummer 14", which I saw as a kid and afterwards the great man talked about footie and we were allowed to ask questions. And we got a poster. Yeah!

Essential viewing is the film "Nummer 14",

obtaining this has just become both key and vital, I will have this film. Have you read the abc book? it's a cracker. and yeah, brilliant Orange is a fantastic book, particularly the new edition with the discussion of penalties. Cruyff's thoughts on penalties are very interesting, give them to the less skilled players as they'll just belt it in rather than stuff up by thinking about placement too much.

"Nummer 14" is out on video I think. It must be. :) It's a great documentary from the early 70s with lotsa slo-mo action. Mmm, I only have the hard-back edition of Brilliant Orange, didn't know he added something in the new edition.

Cruijff on penalties is controversial in Holland since he stated that you can't train on them. Which I guess is true, if you reach a certain level your skill is such that you can put the ball anywhere you want. Just doing it at a certain point in the game is where the difficulty lies. Since Rensenbrink there hasn't been a faultless Dutch penaltytaaker and I suspect that in his case it was that in a way he didn't really care too much about football. Of course Cruijff himself only took 8 penalties in his life, one of which was the celebrated 1-2 with Jesper Olsen. 7 for Barca in case his Spanish team mates got scared (the Spanish also being notoriously bad from the spot) and one at the end of the Amsterdam Tournament of 83 which he missed. It is said that Cruijff didn't like them because the whole situation is too static where he was all about movement.

Funny, maybe that's why I've always hated taking penalties.

Bosch. Verhoeven.

The extra chapter was added after the last world cup iirc or maybe the euro championships, anyway, I'll bring it in tomorrow and give you the gist of it. Much of it featured the works of a business based psychologist who published a pamphlet on penalties, it was very interesting stuff.

Mr.Cabbage get thee to www.cruijff.com Presented last week by the master himself. It has video's of some goals, shitloads of cool photo's. Alas it's in Dutch so you'll probably miss all the cool insights Cruijff is going to give. Already he has been firing away, rubbishing Van Gaal and the state of Dutch footie. :)

I'm gonna have to learn Dutch aren't I? Still it might help for when I pop over to Amsterdam on my big trip next year won't it?

I want to know what Cruyff said about that terrible display last night.

Odd moment from Lineker last night: "I played in a team managed by Cruyff, and if we were losing with ten minutes to go, he would put a big lad on and tell us to bang the long balls over the top."

I love Cruyff, but it's Pieter de hooch all the way for me. Those beautiful empty rooms, like a Dutch Edward Hopper from centuries before.

Tendency to stray offside withstanding.

Props to Mikey G for getting this thread back on track (which is to say, straddling two tracks).

Dennis bergkamp.

Oh Julio, bless your heart.

I'm rapidly going into head patting mode here.

Marco Boogers.

good call

Not strictly relevant, but a drunk collapsed on my bus yesterday morning. Spitting image of Jackson Pollock.

I haven't really seen Cruyff so there you have it.

What about Vermeer? Played for Feyernord in the 70's?