LA vs. SF FITE OH NO

i lived 23 yrs in LA, 1in chicago & 3 in SF, and would never want to move back

there are tons of great san francisco people now living in la.

la people don't spend a lot of town talking/thinking about sf, while the reverse, in my experience, is not the case. i don't know what this means.

sf has better architecture overall.

sf newspapers make the la times look like the greatest newspaper in human history.

my sister lives in sf and she is great.

LA has fake trees.
SF has no trees.

I hate the sameyness of the architecture, though, all those foofy Victorian houses they built after the earthquake. But some of the neighborhoods are fantastically ugly. I like the Tenderloin. I like the weather. I like lots of people up there.

I'll never be able to make up my mind about LA. Until I move.

LA obviously wins

*at Foreign Cinema and Cesar (who probably moved up from LA anyway so back to square one).

;-D

And as i'm a caffeine addict, and always have to throw the aluminum cans away in the trash, I keep ffeeling that i'm doing more than my fair share to destroy the environment. I need to recycle them..also, this lady who just came down from vancouver that I had to drive around for the production company (her son is a hip-hop/b-boy dancer who is in this new unreleased movie w/ Tweet... actually don't ask) she kept talking about how LA has such little recycling relative to her old city and blah blah, and it was only after she said all that did I really began to reflect on how I've never seen anyone in my building recycle anything, and that I should ask my landperson. I was being facetious when I said LA doesn't recycle at all - and you know how I'm often facetious and well, stupid in whatever I say on here. That's just my ilx style, unfortunately.

And about the fake-thing, yeah there;s no way one could actually determine that, of course. And before I say anything else let me just say that I honestly do like LA, or else I woudn't keep living here.

But continually being around people from the entertainment industry, or those trying to succeed in it, it just seems like there are disproportionately a greater number of artificial people in this metropolis, or those who come across with an air of affectation -> it's filled with thespians, after all! Of course, if one has lived here for a number or years (like me), or one's entire life, etc, then it gets harder to really be put off by any of this, since you are exposed to so many different types of people from all different walks of life in this city, and you assimilate yourself into the diverse environment, which remains, nevertheless, pretty stratified. LA is quite a stratified society, and it's usually outsiders who comment on the striking differences that we become immune to, and the circumstances they inspire (like not getting into a club, getting dirty looks for not wearing the right thing, etc etc). Just this past week I was hanging out with a friend who is originally from SF, who had invited two of her friends from SF down here as well. They kept talking about how annoying they found people's "attitudes" here, and while I understood that it may truly have to do with cultural differences and that LA is a more glitzy, gaudy place housing huge egos, I wished they would have understood that all the anti-LA talk was kind of annoying to me.But I was not going to deny what they were saying either, since some of it is true.

I did ask one of them though why she personally hates LA so much, and she replied with :I'm from northern California, it's been bred into me from an early age, hatred of SoCal. So there you go, I guess. It's envy, imo =)

I'm certainly not one of those "Oh-I-hate-LA"-kind-of-LA people who just go on and on about how terrible a place this is with insufferably shallow inhabitants, while remaining glib and superficial in their criticisms myself, without offering anything positive or constructive (improve it! change your *own* attitude first!) to ever say about their home, and I'm sorry if I came across that way (I'm sure you run into these kind of people all the time, as I do). I am just honest in admitting to myself the general sense of artificiality and corruption hovering over this town of tinsel, and love it despite all that, since that's always been hovering around here: it's what makes LA, indeed, LA, one of the defining characteristic of this city of nets, city of dreams. The flip side of artificiality is glamour after all, and no one can deny the illusory glare of glamour that we project from here as well, more than any other place in the world. It's a very a complex town..

Maybe what Vic was getting at is that recycling isn't too popular in L.A., though the city limit proper may provide the mechanisms. Compared to SF, this is true.. especially if you weigh in Orange County and especially San Diego (though I think the Northwest easily bashes Cali on the Recycling Reich tip, overall... 2 outta 3 you get dirty looks if you throw away a glass bottle in a normal trash can here)

As for fake people, yeah, well of course, fakies exist everywhere, but I think you're more prone to fatal doses in SF than LA due to the population density. (*reinsert "well they must moved up from LA anyway!" debate here)

I really do. And I'm really, really sick of all the constant LA vs. NYC thing too, and how everyone just assumes that it's a given that NYC is superior in...everything. Maybe I'm just talking out of jealousy of the NYC July 4th FAP thang and sublimated anger that Ned/Chris committed treason by leaving to go over...THERE... to go celebrate and etc, but really, I'm so tired of everyone off of Ilx going on about NYC as well. All these people I know from film school are now clamoring to leave socal forever, just to move to NYC, post-graduation."More culture." Ahem, "it has more theatre." C'mon!! WTF, really - like anyone is really moving there to go see theatre or the museums; you're all going 'cuz you can drink until 4 instead of 2!

Cowards. It's probably harder to make it, to survive over here as we're a meaner, tougher town with no great public transport system thing....and everyone knows that if you don't make it in LA, you don't really make it at all. =)

I think we're all pots calling each other black kettles here.. (myself included)

LA sucks because you HAVE to have a car. everything is at least a 30 minute from wherever else you have to be. and then add 40 minutes for traffic.

LA seems just to be stuck in the 50s to me. the architecture is fucking ugly. it's just so flat and boxy. i feel like i'm going to visit my grandparents house every time i drive around LA. SF is just a young town.

i always feel like i'm surrounded by like minded people when i walk around here (SF). as my almost wife and i joke regularly with each other (me being tall, white, bearded, indie - she being cutesy, lil filipino), "i could so easily replace you here"

that movie was ang lee's "the hulk" (universal pictures, hollywood, ca)

This is a really awful statement. How can you be so simplistic and hateful?

???? I don't see what's so hateful about it, it's an observation based on people I know who are even, to an extent, friends of mine. They live life with blinders on. I did not say that everyone is like this and I didn't say these people needed to be beheaded or set on fire.

fyi, I lived in Oakland between Grand and Piedmont for years and really liked it. Would somebody please stop by Kingman's Lucky Lounge and let me know if it's still the coolest most integrated bar ever?

Air Quality:
LA has the most disgusting air quality you can ever hope to breathe in the USA.

Fakeness:
More fake hair color and nails and cosmetic "enhancements"/surgeries in LA then anywhere in the world, and don't get me started on the women!

Hence the pocket oxygen tanks sold on every street corner.

Fakeness:
More fake hair color and nails and cosmetic "enhancements"/surgeries in LA then anywhere in the world, and don't get me started on the women!

Have you been to NYC lately? Tis the new mecca of 'rich bitch' enhancement.

I haven't been... I will return, when I have no idea... late summer?

Weather
One word: please.

Air Quality
If you exclude the choked desert valleys and focus on Santa Monica to Downtown, then Air Quality in the Los Angeles basin is comparable with any average American city (most studies include Riverside/Oxnard where eyes sting for much of the year).

Fakeness
So SF people are less fake, eh? Why do so many San Franciscans look the same, act the same, dress the same? How many women there have bangs? How many guys wear bowling shirts? Also, speaking of fakers, do you think for instance, that John Walker Lindh could have come from anywhere BUT the Bay Area?

Oxnard has bad air quality? huh... at any rate, I would love to see the report that you're referencing although I think you're getting the fleecy eyed treatment wrt: air quality.

Bangs and bowling shirts sounds like that Alameda/Oakland retro-thing about 5-10 years ago, I don't remember the last time I've encountered either.

Why do so many San Franciscans look the same, act the same, dress the same?

I'm thinking if you replace "San Franciscans" with an ethnic/religious group, it's the kind of thing that people in the public eye take a lot of heat over, just to point out an unbecoming quality to your mentality/thought process here. It seems to speak more to your ability to evaluate people in a superficial LA-manner (looks, dress, etc.) rather than traits not immediately assessible after a cursory glance or once-over.

John Walker Lindh lived more than half of hislife in DC by the way.

Spencer has lived in, and gotten to know, people from both LA and SF. he can speak from past experience due to having lived long in both cities.

how long did you ever live in LA ?

yeah, it's butt cold out there

i also miss crazy bay area microclimates too

i am working in goddamn san marcos / escondido right now and it has been 81 and sunny for the last two months

yeah what shasta said. My wife lived at 23rd and Quintara and the weather was just depressing. The sun never shines. Also the neighborhoods are eerily dead, no one's ever outside doing anything (even though there are plenty of families/kids living out there!), and it feels like you have to go REALLY FAR just to find a sixpack of beer or a sandwich or a trashcan or anything at all really.

do you love Contra Costa County almost all of the time?

I remember staying in the Richmond district in SF, and it was surprisingly dead.

well, surprising to me.

"no one's ever outside doing anything" = people have day jobs?

"really far" = more than a few blocks?

moonship, have you ever not had a car? Not trying to be snarky, seriously.

it's just incredibly residential and you know what, if you're gonna pay city prices you might as well get some of those benefits... there are clusters of city life in the avenues but for the most part, it's block after block of sameness.

i am from san diego, it should be obvious that i have never not had a car, except when i lived in berkeley.

no I mean like, at night, on the weekends, in the morning - you don't see other people. Its creepy. By contrast, every day when I walk out of my house to go to work, there are at least half a dozen people I see and say hi to - the gay bear gardener on the corner, the chinese lady out for her morning jog, the Vietnamese painter at the bus stop etc.

and yes I mean more than a few blocks - I mean like a DOZEN blocks.

x-post

"or is it pathological need for unlimited bars / coffeeshops within walking distance of your house?"

An absolute unwillingness to commute + nicer weather + better coffeeshops/food/grocery stores + I like to walk everywhere.

"gay bear gardener"

So many ways to read this.

http://one1rabbit.co.uk/catalog/images/bajotoys/61310.jpg

I mean a big part of living in the city for me is being around other people - feeling like I am part of a community that shares a common living space. You don't get that in the Sunset. At least, not on a regular basis.

Cars suck btw and I consider any urban design that is centered around the traffic of cars to be fatally and unforgivably flawed.

Maybe things have changed the last few years, but I remember Santa Clara Co. being as expensive as SF.. so talk about city prices, no city benefits, etc.

moonshape - Had no idea you were from SD, so that part wasn't obvious to me. Just trying to offer the not-having-a-car-for-many-years perspective, that's all.

Yeah and the community thing is nice too even if I didn't actually notice it until I got a dog.

shakey mo that sounds like a children's book about walking to school. "hello vietnamese lady! hello gay bear gardener! hello chinese lady!"

I think there is a children's book like that actually.

I live in a Richard Scarry world

i dunno i guess maybe it might seem like people don't use "community space" in the suburbs if you live a certain lifestyle. i hear that complaint from my friends who live in SF - when they talk about the south bay - and it seems to me like they just have a different idea of what community space is for. like maybe they have a lifestyle where community space is for walking to work, standing outside smoking at night, doing public art performance, etc. and people in the suburbs by and large don't use their community space like that, but that's not to say that they don't have community space or they don't use community space, but that it might be in places where you aren't looking - dog parks just after work, the soccer fields on saturday and sunday mornings, around churches and farmers markets on the weekends.

dog parks just after work, the soccer fields on saturday and sunday mornings, around churches and farmers markets on the weekends.

uh, we have these things in the city. there is a soccer field six blocks away from me, the nearest church is around the corner (they sell pupusas on Saturdays), farmers market is over the hill.

suburbs suck and alienate people and are just horrible from an urban design perspective and I never want to live in them.

that is the folksiest post on this thread imo xpost

"hello sporty audi coupe! hello escalade with custom rims! hello other sporty audi coupe! hello lunar crater-size pothole!"

xxxpost

having grown up in the LA burbs I just feel a deep visceral hatred of them - that feeling that everything interesting is FAR AWAY, that no one wants to spend any time together, everyone would prefer to be cruising around aimlessly in their giant cars or watching shitty sporting events on their bigscreen TVs, completely shutting out anything that does not correspond to some weird materialist fantasy while they absent-mindedly gobble up resources and generate endless tons of waste ugh kill kill kill

sorry for the self-righteous spieling but every time I visit my family in SoCal this point is hammered home very clearly to me. Everybody complains about the smog and the traffic and expensive gas and eats shitty food with no idea where it comes from and don't know who their neighbors are... its just the effects of really fucking stupid urban design, multiplied over and over again way beyond anything reasonable.

sorry gotta run, off to home depot and the grocery store

S.F. is just a more hospitable environment than L.A. ever has been or will be. L.A. is devolving quickly, and I think I got out in the nick of time. The L.A. Times is imploding, our public radio is terrible, the [L.A.] Weekly’s been devolving for years. Local media’s being run into the ground and I don’t think anybody cares. The public’s dumbed down and poorly educated. L.A. is a psychic death hole to me, and I don’t want a part of that. There are so many impending crises -- the political structure, the traffic, the educational system. L.A. is failing worse than ever, and I felt that if I can get out, I should. I found a way out. For a long time now I’ve been going back and forth between L.A. and S.F., and every time I got off the plane in L.A. I felt dumber.

people from LA dont even write their own posts they just copy and paste

its become a psychic postmodern urban death hole

the only art is of total recall

what about The Hills

sf is cool except theres too many gay vietnamese bear gardeners imo

I grew up in L.A., and have lived in SF (sunset) for a year now. So, I like L.A. letter since it still feels like "home turf." It was weird visiting last weekend though and realizing that all the plastic cups weren't made out of corn plastic like they are in SF. Still, San Francisco, to my eye, has awful journalism. LA Weekly and LA Times are much better papers than the SF Bay Guardian and SF Chronicle. I also feel like I have to wait longer for things that I want to leave the house for to happen, like art openings, or concerts, but that might just be because I know more people in Los Angeles, so I hear about things. Still there are many definite and concrete advantages to living in San Francisco, and these will become apparent after the end of the world.

I also feel like I have to wait longer for things that I want to leave the house for to happen, like art openings, or concerts, but that might just be because I know more people in Los Angeles

Probably because you live in the Sunset.

I didn;t mean that in a bad way, just that it takes a lot longer to get any place from there.

WTF, when did my mom become the head of the L.A. Chapter of N.O.W.??????

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/10/la-now-prez-on.html

Sorry, but for this item... SF SF SF. Fuck you, LA.

hahahahaha

What's funny is how many people I know from SoCal, esp. OC, who love how foggy West of Divisadero is. I find it a bit tedious, however.

might be nice to visit occasionally (and I do) but I wouldn't wanna live there

It's too grim for my taste. I would totally live in the East Bay for the weather but it's not urbanly dense enough except for a few places I just don't find interesting enough.

Having to travel to LA 1-2 times a month this year for work has helped crystalize this issue for me. Among the minor reasons SF is better than LA:

1. Climate. Fuck a LA summer. Fog & cold rules.
2. SF is more interesting to look at.
3. SF has somewhat fewer people with orange tans and levitating boobs.
4. SF: No car required.
5. People in LA actually dress up for work!

Going to LA tomorrow and the dread is rising.

Whew back from helLA and SF is like a billion times better thesis proved end of story lock stock and bonds.

Hahaha I don't mean to rile people like Shakeyy who I genuinely think are cool (and certainly have v legitimate complaints about the materialism of suburban Socal), but SF is terrible and my least favorite city - self-righteous, snotty, insular, pretty and (ironically enough, what they claim LAers as being) pretty shallow in its contempt. LA kills it in all respects - except for public transport; if you can't find anything of value in this metropolis of 17 million, then *you're* the one that's shallow, and plz, contemporary SFers shouldn't be the first to talk about materialism (choke). Also, how can anyone knock the food the infinite variety of the ethnic food of LA, especially the San Gabriel Valley - frequently considered the best east asian food outside Hong Kong or Bangkok? Ridiculous- of course SF has more "fine dining" institutions that I'd never feel comfortable paying for... culturally speaking, SF has become ossified and pretty irrelevant after 1969. Stick to your pretty, perfect bourgeoisie gilded village; I'll take the teeming, gritty, diverse jungle anyday

> 2. SF is more interesting to look at.
3. SF has somewhat fewer people with orange tans and levitating boob

perfect example of the hypocrisy of blaming LAists for being "shallow," while championing SF for being "pretty to look at" - excuse me if I prefer the city that's much more interesting to dig deep into, that still has wide swaths of layers of non-gentrified arcane elemetns to it, that keeps reverberating with classic noir-like malice and mystery as opposed to the pre-fab high society aspirations of the Gettys and Newsoms that dominate your civil society. Oakland is even more vital than SF these days, it's sad what you've become...but worst of all is the utter disdain and contempt with which you treat visiting Angelenos. I remember when I last visited in March, the sheer amount of sympathetic "oh my I'm so SORRY you have to live DOWN THERE," followed by the utter incredulousness when greeted with my response of how I PREFERRED to live down here - precisely because of your fucking uppity attitudes (out of many reasons)

The true test of security in your city is in how you treat citizenz of others; as Spencer wrote here long ago, Angelenos like SF but either think of it as a little weekend escape/getaway town, fun for a day or two - or think not much of it at all. But SFers are indoctrinated for hate and loathing for LA since young childhood, their insecurity lashing out irrationally at any native that dare ventures up there, complete with long diatribes of pseudo-morality of "how you bastards have stolen NorCal's precious water." Not to mention the egregious stereotypes Jeff perpetuates (much to the contrary, LA is revitalizing and discovering its city center like never before -or at least not since the 1940s - and we have great radio, wtf?! I'm not alone to argue THAT haha) Such insecurity towards your larger, younger souther sister that outgrew you in relevance and importance (as opposed to the delusional SFers who think that "only NYC can compete with us") - does not behoove the denizens of a metropolis that feels comfortable with itself.

The fake boob stereotypes are so one-dimensional in and of themselves - and apply to what, 10% of the West LA populace? I mean you can live here and not feel part of America; I live in a hood that's totally dominated by El Salvadorean, Koreans, Thai and Guatemalans - and most people in my bldg don't even speak English. But when you continue to regurgitate your stereotypes, you only sound ignorant

This remains my favorite summation of SF and their self-righteous attitudes - so OTM: :)

Smug Alert! is episode 1002 of South Park. It first aired on March 29, 2006, as a send-up of the environmental movement, hybrid cars, their celebrity proponents and the superficial feel-good nature of all involved. Gerald Broflovski buys a hybrid vehicle and buys into the whole progressive movement, becoming an evangelist, moving his family out of South Park, disturbing a delicate equilibrium and indirectly causing an environmental disaster along the way.

Kyle's father Gerald buys a new hybrid car, a Toyonda Pious, and drives around showing it off to everyone. He begins an unwelcomed campaign to convert the other townspeople to environmentally friendly vehicles. This behaviour annoys his friend Randy, who complains that Gerald now preachily talks with his eyes closed, and that he almost likes the smell of his own farts. Deciding that they cannot live among such backward, unsophisticated folk, Gerald decides to move his family to San Francisco.
Stan is horrified that his best friend is leaving South Park, but Gerald informs him that he will not be returning until everyone feels the same way as him about the environment.
Cartman is joyous over Kyle's leaving and, after holding a farewell party for Kyle that everyone but Kyle is invited to attend, not celebrating Kyle, but the fact that Kyle is leaving. He decides to fill the void by ripping on Butters, whom he now calls a "stupid Jew". Stan coldly predicts that, without Kyle around to rip on, Cartman's life will be empty.
After the Broflovskis leave, Stan writes a repetitive song about the importance of hybrid cars, which finds its way onto the radio and, incredibly, causes everyone to drive hybrids — and act as smugly as Gerald. Stan is praised for opening everyone's eyes but soon bumps into Ranger McFriendly, protector of the environment, who surprisingly criticises what he has done: although smog rates are down, people who drive hybrids create a toxic gas in the air called "smug", and South Park now has the second-highest levels in the country, after San Francisco.
In San Francisco, Kyle's father is glad to meet like-minded "progressive" people, who, in mid-conversation, fart loudly, bend over and inhale with pleasure, before resuming discussions of their philosophies. Kyle finds it difficult to fit in with the other kids, who take drugs to deal with their parents' "smugginess". Kyle refuses the offer of acid but, after seeing that his dad is even more arrogant than before (sniffing his own fart), asks for "maybe just half a hit," while his brother Ike takes three.
The cloud of smug forms over South Park and begins to combine with that of San Francisco. In a series of scenes parodying the film The Perfect Storm, McFriendly reveals that the cloud of smug from George Clooney's 78th Academy Awards acceptance speech (which claimed that Hollywood was "ahead of the curve" on social issues) will soon drift into the center of the "super cell" and create "the perfect storm of self-satisfaction", which will heavily damage South Park and completely destroy San Francisco, much to Stan's dismay.
Cartman, meanwhile, finds Butters too nice and, due to his lack of self-esteem, unwilling to defend himself as Kyle did, quickly loses patience and wishes that Kyle would return, fulfilling Stan's prediction. To top it all off, Butter states that he is really not a Jew at all, much to Cartman's irritation.
While Stan is forced into helping the town to eliminate hybrid cars, Cartman, desperate to get Kyle back so that he can resume hating him, secretly goes to San Francisco with Butters, planning to infiltrate the city and rescue his foe. Afraid of San Francisco's lesbian and hippie movements (which he hates), Cartman wears an "anti-smug suit" (connected to a hose with an air supply managed by Butters). Just as the storm hits, Cartman finds the Broflovskis in their house, completely stoned on acid and smug.
The storm destroys thousands of homes in South Park, while San Francisco disappears "completely up its own asshole", leading everyone to think that Kyle's family is dead. The Broflovskis reappear, though, explaining that they awoke mysteriously on a bus, and thank a "guardian angel", unaware that it was Cartman who saved them. Even though Butters knows about this, Cartman convinces him to keep quiet, not wanting Kyle to know.
With all their cars destroyed, the townspeople vow never again to buy hybrids. Kyle points out that hybrids really are a good thing; the people who drive them should just not be smug about it, or act as if they are above everybody else. The people, however, are not ready to drive them without being smug — "it's simply asking too much" — so they return to SUVs and other high-fuel-consumption vehicles.
Cartman talks to Kyle, saying that everything is back to normal; Kyle agrees. Cartman then calls him a 'sneaky Jew rat'; Kyle retorts by dubbing him a fatass and storming away. Cartman smiles at this, relieved to have the status quo returned.

According to the commentary, this episode came directly from the creators' annoyance at people in California with the same attitudes as the people in the episode. One instance in particular involved Trey Parker's mother getting a smuggy compliment one day after receiving a hybrid car from her son as a gift. All quotes from the Clooney acceptance speech are the real words he used, although it is Trey Parker saying them rather than actual audio of the speech.

after all my LA hate here and elsewhere, I do have to say that I really liked it the last time I went (a few years ago). I suspect I might have only a 3 day tolerance of it though, but maybe not.

You know, if you think that SF folks are smug, it's not them but you who is being insecure. If you really didn't care what they think, then you'd just shrug or laugh at their smug opinions and forget about it a minute later. So what if those San Franciscans think their shit smells like roses? Folks don't let others' opinions bother them, unless the folks holding the opinions have some kinda power over them, which apparently SFers do. And before you say it, yr opinion of SF doesn't bother me in the least. I'm waaaay too smug to allow that. I just hope that my little bit of psychology here helps you figure things out so that you can be bothered by Smug Franciscans a bit less in the future.

Oh, and you don't have to thank me. I'm just doing my little charitable bit for the world.

There are a lot of unpleasant people in LA and in SF as I think this thread ably demonstrates.

You said it brother!