Funny women

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inspired by the development of minor TV observations

think about these things:

who is your favourite female comedienne?

what is it about their act/style that is funny?

are women less encouraged to be funny or act
can there be a successful female Jim Carrey (zany egotistical cariacture overload), Bill Hicks (humourous rock n' roll political philosophisng) or Chris Morris (surreal/satirical maverick) or are women generally restricted to bitchiness/lewdness and only mild satire, observation and dry wit to get laughs?

do you generally find men are funnier than women and if so why? why should this be?

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

are women less encouraged to be funny or act

got cut off - should finish 'act funny to more extreme/unconventional levels?'

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish there were more Gilda Radners. I watch old SNL re-runs and I think, Jesus, yes.

I think it's more difficult to "get away" with laughing at women in a mainstream entertainment context because 1) so many writers are men and 2) so many female writers are too freakin' self-conscious to really cut loose. The funniest stuff I've ever read about women seems to be written by guys.

Gilda Radner, man, I wish she had had more of a revolutionary effect on women in comedy.

― jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Hard question Steve. For instance, I don't think Bette Midler is side-splittingly funny much of the time, but the reactions some males have to her are quite often hilarious in their extremity. Pam Stephenson was a bit the same, some men hated her with a passion that bordered on downright vicious and it was imagining that that produced the laughs.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I've just been on about this on this thread's parent. To summarise, I think it's been a sexist world for ages, and women haven't had the chances or encouragement, and actually that positive reinforcement is still many times likelier to go to young boys than young girls who clown around.

The first big favourite to leap to mind is probably Lily Tomlin, a brilliant comedy actress who I hope is revered in America, where you've certainly seen much more of her. I am a big Lucille Ball fan too.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 5 July 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Sadly it seems like women are freer to be funny on TV than in movies here in the US -- Gilda Radner and Lily Tomlin being prime examples. And no, Martin, I don't think Lily's as revered here as she should be. There seems to be some sort of a backlash against her because although it's apparently widely known and understood that she's gay, she's never come out and admitted it. (Sure, that's what she should do -- look what coming out of the closet did for Ellen Degeneres.) Also, sadly, it seems like in order for any female entertainer to be "revered" she has to be not only talented but sexy ... or, just sexy will do. I gather Gilda and Lily were never considered sexy enough to really move beyond sketch comedy.

― jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

You know who else is hysterical? Amy Sedaris. I think she's the most maniacally loony and hysterically funny woman around right now, but I hardly ever see her. *sigh*

― jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

must admit i've never heard of Gilda Radner and Lily Tomlin but am intrigued. if you were to poll people in the UK about who they thought the funniest British women were you'd probably get an interesting contrast with older generations going for French & Saunders or Victoria Wood and younger people going for the Smack The Pony team or Caroline Aherne but they're all more revered for their writing skills rather than their performances and characters (although Ab Fab was actually a rare example of female characters that were quite OTT...tho for some reason i never found them as funny as Mayall & Edmondson in Bottom and i'm not sure why this is). i also remember finding Jo Brand reasonably funny about 10-12 years which is scary looking back at it - she's unlikely to be that well remembered in years to come.

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

jewelly is OTM with amy sedaris. her appearances on letterman are winningly funny.

― Chris Radford (Chris Radford), Saturday, 5 July 2003 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

there's probably some difference between the US and UK here. there's no British female comic i know of that i'd class as hysterical as they are - just lots of nice 'meh-heh' type ones, but that would just be my opinion. what occurred to me is that a female version of Jim Carrey or Mike Myers would just somehow not work - i see irritating and unattractive as opposed to hilarious (not that i find Carrey that funny but many do)...some sexist conditioning going on here maybe...but it ties in with what jewelly is saying (female comics are now expected to be attractive so must play it fairly safe) - although Jo Brand never met this particular criteria and routine wise she was pretty much just the lower class female version of David Baddiel, but that was over 10 years ago and there seems a greater dearth than ever of risk-taking or maverick female comics emerging in the UK compared to a fairly constant stream of males (dave gorman, rob brydon, johnny vegas etc.).

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I only know of Lily Tomlin via "The Incredible Shrinking Woman" which I saw on ITV when I was about 9. I remember really loving that film.

― Chriddof (Chriddof), Saturday, 5 July 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I read this thread title and thought of Kate Hepburn!

I don't like "comedians" in general so I'm relieved if there aren't many female comedians to begin with.

― amateurist (amateurist), Saturday, 5 July 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

not just comedians tho amateurist, writers/satirists/performers who deal with comedy included here. surely some of these people make you laugh?

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I love Ellen DeGeneris, Paula Poundstone, Rita Rudner, Gilda Radner, Caroline Rhea, Margaret Cho, and Caroline Quentin (when she's doing comedy, that is). I don't have too much of an exposure to Amy Sedaris, being that I only know her from "Strangers With Candy", but she rocks the comedy casbah in that show. I think with most comedians in general, the humor starts to become nonexistent when they try to be "risque" or "cutting edge" by either talking about bodily functions that are TMI or by using curse words merely for the sake of using them, and too many contemporary female stand-up comedians like to use the crutch of "gender differences" (really nothing more but a celebration of stereotypes) in the creation of their act. My favorite female comedians don't dwell on that but rather talk about things that would affect most everyone (e.g. Ellen DeGeneris talks about the mundane but annoying things that happen to everyone in life, Margaret Cho pokes gentle fun at ethnicity and family, etc.) And I think if I were to look at my favorite male comedians, they'd fall within similar borders as well. (Look at Robin Williams -- he says things the zanier part of us would love to say but don't want to lest we end up being locked up in a mental institution. Ray Romano talks about family and thus talks about all of our families. And Jeff Foxworthy, by chiding his own Southern roots, chides stupidity in general.)

― Innocent Dreamer (Dee the Lurker), Saturday, 5 July 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

p.s.: Yes, I really did mean to misspell Ellen DeGeneres' name. ;)

― Innocent Dreamer (Dee the Lurker), Saturday, 5 July 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

http://images.hollywood.com/images/770461.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/Seinfeld/wacky.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.prisma-online.de/image/b7/mmnet_b7228c096eb7.jpeg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/movies/reviews/08RainOffice.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Funny women = rOOOOOOOOOWWWR women

― donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.raptorial.com/Boingo/Sndtrks1/Romy&M.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

hello...

ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS, people!

Jennifer Saunders... Julie Sawalha... sigh

― donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~bart/bart-simpson.gif

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.filmnight.org/images/bringing1.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

BEA ARTHUR, NO FUCKING KIDDING.

― anthony easton (anthony), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

http://i.ivillage.com/womn/photos/janeane1.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

http://image.pathfinder.com/ew/itlist/2001/img/snl.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

http://users.rcn.com/lyndanyc/images/dottipic.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

[insert photos of Ally, Jewellry, Luna, Carey, Di, etc]
...I think some of the female ILXors crack me up just as much as, if not more than, the men around here.

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.egads.com/nemceff2/rain.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.angelsacolyte.com/epthumbs1/s1_185by5/5by508a.jpg

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 5 July 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

It has been scientifically proven that women are not funny.

― kikiru, Saturday, 5 July 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

How could someone not have heard of Gilda Radner?? Most classic indeed. (that said i didn't know Tomlin was gay.) Tell me something I might have seen Amy Sedaris on rather than Letterman.

― That Girl (thatgirl), Saturday, 5 July 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Tell me something I might have seen Amy Sedaris on rather than Letterman.

Strangers With Candy, which used to be on MTV. I don't know if it plays in reruns on any stations or not as I'm without cable.

― jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

who is the most famous funny woman (as in comic/performer) in the world?

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Lucille Ball

― That Girl (thatgirl), Saturday, 5 July 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

still?

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess i meant current/active

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Barbara Walters

― jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

current? hmm. is there one? most well known wouldn't neccesarily be funniest - whoopi, roseanne barr maybe.

― That Girl (thatgirl), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Joan Rivers?

― ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

again, just famous, not necessarily funny :)

― ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I love Catherine O'Hara.

http://sctvguide.ca/features/lola78.jpg

But my favorites are probably Gilda Radner and Lily Tomlin.

― Arthur (Arthur), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I love Imogene Coca, too.

http://www.tvtome.com/images/people/5/1/80-1880.jpg

― Arthur (Arthur), Saturday, 5 July 2003 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

madeline kahn. yes please, madeline kahn. i don't necessarily think there is anything inherently different about a 'female style' of comedy -- i think the same principles of timing and reversal still apply. i think ms kahn had (god rest her) such a tremendous straight face, such complete commitment to whatever gag she was playing. simply marvelous.

― Elmo Oxygen (elmo oxygen), Saturday, 5 July 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

joan rivers was groundbreaking 40 yrs ago. so was phyillis diller.

― anthony easton (anthony), Saturday, 5 July 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm really hilarious. I think most of you have only noticed 30% of my funniness. That means 70% is left to be discovered.

― Mandee, Saturday, 5 July 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

i am abso-fucking-lutely fabu-fucking-lously with donut bitch.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 6 July 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Female comics are interesting, I think there's a real difference in attitudes from the audience when they get on stage. When male comics get up it's a real 'is this person going to be funny?' and then females get up and it's more 'what's she trying to prove?'.
Women also talk too much and over explain things when a lot of comedy is based in simplicity.
I think that this thread should be retitled 'Funny women; what's that about?!'
I'm going to have my stand up debut in November. It's all a bit exciting.

― Nellie (nellskies), Sunday, 6 July 2003 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

has no one mentioned carole lombard?!?! or betty comden, she could be extremely funny.

marlene dietrich was an underrated comic actress.

― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 6 July 2003 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Kathy Burke the best - I thought Susie Essman was really great on 'Curb Your Enthusiasm', too. Susie Essman does do the bitchiness/lewdness thing, but a kind of purified version of it - so extreme. But Kathy Burke, I love her so much, because I've seen on her in interviews and on 'Gimme Gimme Gimme' and she has that intelligent sad stupidity that is outside the domain of all but the best comics - I mean Woody Allen has that. Kathy Burke can really do deadpan, melancholy nothingness, as well as satire, which is great. And I love her hatefulness towards the upper classes, too.

― X, Sunday, 6 July 2003 08:19 (twenty-two years ago)

thankfully no-one has mentioned any Australian female comedians. for there are no funny ones. no, not even Judith Lucy, who is horrible. mention kath and kim and i will throw beer in your lap.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Sunday, 6 July 2003 09:09 (twenty-two years ago)

i should've mentioned Kathy Burke long before I even thought of mentioning Jo Brand!

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 6 July 2003 10:05 (twenty-two years ago)

There's a distinction worth making, I think, between comedy acting and stand up comedy. I think women are absolutely as strong in the history of the former (despite bing given rather less opportunity at times), but are certainly in the minority both overall and in the upper echelons among stand ups. The fact that successful and popular standups in the US seem to generally lead to sitcoms will maybe maintain that - in the UK we've seen almost zero standup from people like Roseanne Barr and Ellen DeGerenes.

I don't get how people think there is a problem with funny women being sexy. Obviously there is a whole range, but look back at the classic era of screwball comedies and the women were often the funniest characters, with the men often playing straight man. Bringing Up Baby is as good and high profile an example as any, I guess. If a modern example is wanted, UK viewers can watch Smack The Pony for some of the sexiest women on TV (I particularly love Sally Phillips). I do agree that there seems to be a weird attitude towards female comics, as if it isn't a properly feminine thing to be doing. This obviously needs opposing.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 6 July 2003 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Good luck Nellie! I look forward to your future HBO special. :)

― Innocent Dreamer (Dee the Lurker), Monday, 7 July 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

that woman off of will and grace - not grace but her friend abso kills me, she is funn-e (although this is mainly due to the writers but her delivary is great - oddly i also find her a very sexy woman - even with the screachy voice)

― james (james), Monday, 7 July 2003 10:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I was gonna say Kathy Burke too. She can be so funny, but also so serious in her roles. But yeah, she makes me laugh loads.

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Monday, 7 July 2003 10:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Grace's pal < Cybil's pal.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 7 July 2003 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.everwonder.com/david/silverman/xsm_sarah44.jpg
"I, Sarah Silverman, have made The Nickalicious laugh so hard he pee'd all over his self. Twice."

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 7 July 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I LOVE Wanda Sykes.
Margaret Cho is okay. Amy Sedaris can be hilarious. And what's her face who used to be Andy's Sister Stacy on Conan O'Brien, oh man, did I love that bit. Everytime.

The women of Newsradio were all very funny, though most of them are now doing ER. Which is, from the brief glimpses, quite humourless.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 7 July 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

The first season of Strangers With Candy is out on dvd now! I just bought it this weekend and has helped fuel my Colbert obsession.

― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 7 July 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

all these "comedians" are so fucking dud.

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 7 July 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

What about Carol Burnett?

― Mandee, Monday, 7 July 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

what's her face who used to be Andy's Sister Stacy on Conan O'Brien

Amy Poehler. Now on SNL.

Funny women also seem to succeed in character sketches = Tracy Ullman, Carol Burnett.

(xpost with Mandee!)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 July 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Sarah Vowell?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Sandra Bernhard is funny and clever.

― Saskia, Monday, 7 July 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Women have saved SNL from the dumper.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Molly Shannon, Julia Sweeney, Nora Dunn

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

SWOON

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Wanda Sykes is about as edgy as a butter knife. Margaret Cho annoys me with her fag-hag dream world. Gay men are to her what unicorns are to 12-year-old girls. Everyone on Saturday Night Live is boring, predictable, and irritating. I don't mean to pick on the girls, either: comedy in general is in a sorry state. And stand up comedy needs to go away forever.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Is Wanda supposed to be edgy?
She's just funny.
Yr line about gay men and unicorns proves that comedy isn't in as sorry a state as you say. You funny Kenan you.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Expecting Wanda Sykes to be edgy is a non-starter unless you've got preconceived notions about her act based on her connection to Chris Rock.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone is on telly too much = they stop being funny quicker

denise coffey

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 7 July 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...

what if they did a Peep Show style thing but with two women in the lead roles...Tamsin Grieg and Sally Phillips? Maybe the lass from Man Stroke Woman (this looks quite good btw)...

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:32 (twenty years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/partridge/life/images/100_150_hayers.jpg

we're not commissioning a pilot

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

Haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if I'm re-observing here.

I think the problem with a lot of women in comedy is they're either used as the "straight" characters (viz: Quentin & Ash to Cloones & Morissey), or the comedy revolves around women's issues (endless jokes about tampons and dieting).
I think the only show that managed to avoid this was Smack The Poney. But despite it's much touted all-female cast, many of the sketches could have been done by men or a mixed cast.

― dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

going back to the Peep Show idea, you don't get enough female narration in comedy so that would be a nice novelty, coupled with the parent novelty of Peep Show itself (camera as eyes of the character). it's too bad the idea's already been done with two men as with women it could've been even all the more remarkable.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:19 (twenty years ago)

I know it's been said before on this thread, but there is a huge distinction between good comedic actors and good comedians. And while I could reel off a whole bunch of women who have impeccable comedic acting talent, I'd be struggling to name a handful of decent stand-up/sketch comediennes, certainly from the UK. In fact, past Jo Brand (who I have recently rediscovered as very funny due to her stints sitting in for Jonathan Ross on Radio Two) and Victoria Wood (blame my mum), I can't really think of any. Oh, Nina Conti was great the first time I saw her, but her schtick wore thin quite quickly.

Catherine Tate, Meera Syal, can't even think of any more, NOT FUNNY. Oh, yes, French and Saunders. Very much not funny.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

Jenny Eclair = good comedienne. that accent helps. she's also quite good on radio from what i've heard (not much).

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

http://a1204.g.akamai.net/7/1204/1401/04012112011/images.barnesandnoble.com/images/7320000/7322087.jpg

― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)

I forgot about Jenny Eclair. I saw her about ten/fifteen years ago and she was utterly appalling, relying on the shock factor of being vulgar rather than actualy being funny. However she seems to have matured into a genuinely funny person.

Destroy: Gina Yashere. Also Josie Lawrence (from the Emma Thompson/Catherine Tate/Tracy Ullman school of sketch-show smugness), that crap woman (Jenny Ross?) who used to be on the Sunday Show.

People who have intermittently made me laugh: Mel and Sue, Rhona Cameron, Donna McPhail, Hattie Hayridge

Honourable mention: Liza Tarbuck. I was trying to think of women who have appeared on Have I Got News For You or QI as the benchmark (that's appeared in the guise of professional funnyperson rather than being a guest who happens to be amusing) and apart from Jo Brand, Liza Tarbuck was the only one I could think of who I could actually put my hand on my heart and say that they made me laugh.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:55 (twenty years ago)

Sandra Bee from the Daily Show doesn't make me laugh, but my friend Anna (who thinks SB is hilarious) does.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:58 (twenty years ago)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/HuntingtonM15/lawanda3.jpg

― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:10 (twenty years ago)

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― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:12 (twenty years ago)

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― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:15 (twenty years ago)

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― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/universal_pictures/american_pie_2/_group_photos/alyson_hannigan23.jpg

― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:20 (twenty years ago)

http://lygo.com/ly/wg/e/ss2/KingHill/kinghill03.jpg

― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

http://valdefierro.com/mar33.jpg

― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

http://www.detnews.com/pix/2001/03/07/s08boston.gif

― _, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

Maria Bamford

― darin (darin), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 19:39 (twenty years ago)

It took me a few minutes to realize you didn't mean Ashley "what ever happened to..." Banfield.

― D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

haha tichina arnold was the best thing about martin. her fights with martin are priceless. and maya rudolph is one of my favorite comedians on snl ever.

― Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 03:58 (twenty years ago)

maya rudolph always plays the same "over singing " character. i mean she does it good but its totally played out by now.

― howell huser (chaki), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 05:07 (twenty years ago)

omg whatever did happen to ashleigh banfield?

― j b everlovin' r (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 05:09 (twenty years ago)

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