taking sides: the Dutch or the Belgians

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This surely is the real question that must be settled - the frugal, hardworking, and permissive Dutch v. the jolly yet slighly less hardworking Belgians.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 10 July 2003 10:49 (twenty-two years ago)

The dutch all the wway - no one comes close tto those guys - my fav europeans and no mistaking, up the dutch. Belgian smellgian.

― james (james), Thursday, 10 July 2003 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Belgians make better beer, therefore Belgians.

― fletrejet, Thursday, 10 July 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

The Dutch win because they welcomed The Legendary Pink Dots in their exile from England.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Belgium vs Netherlands

guns : FN P90 vs ???
films : Dardenne brothers vs ???
comics : Herge vs ???
drugs : ??? vs the best weed in the world

That's 3 : 1 for Belgium.

― Sommermute (Wintermute), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:05 (twenty-two years ago)

The Belgians are more funloving, I think. So therefore they win.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:06 (twenty-two years ago)

kim clijsters is from belgium. belgium wins. also, i like ads for stella artois.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Dutch. For purely nepotistic reasons.

(Though the modern Dutch would probably try and argue that my Afrikaans ancestors were not Dutch at all, but some kind of weird Flemmish...)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

X-post... UGH!!! Stella is surely a reason to call for the elimination of Belgium from the face of the earth! The Dutch win again.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

nu beat, monks, fab beer, the inventors of chips and mayonnaise, great techno = Belgium all the way

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I said the ads kate, not the beer.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Belgian beer = tasty goodness. Dutch beer = piss. Belgium wins.

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:12 (twenty-two years ago)

New York was founded by the Dutch as New Amsterdam. Therefore, yet again, THE FUCKING DUTCH!!!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Do I not like orange

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

belgians = better in every way
kate = completely insane

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Kate's winning despite the suckage of Orange-type things but it's Nieuw Amsterdam.

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

The Dutch have, like, at least three different words for their country/nationality: Dutch, The Netherlands, Holland, etc.

Belgium has only one name.

It's the Dutch again! Wooo!!!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:17 (twenty-two years ago)

no-one's mentioned Belgian chocolate?

actually i do like the Dutch but they do little to help their cause - Van Der Valk being a case in point

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

But Belgium has Flanders and Wallonia, Flemish and Walloons.

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

and how could clogs ever have been considered a good look?

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Hieronymus Bosch!

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Kate, the Dutch don't have all those words for their country, it's the rest of the world that does.

Belgium - French or flemish

Holland = horrible, guttural croakings that make them sound like expectorating dogs

That'll be Belgium then

― chris (chris), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The Dutch have, like, at least three different words for their country/nationality: Dutch, The Netherlands, Holland, etc.

actually, I think you'll find that Holland is just a bit of the Netherlands.

I've just remembered that there is a bit of the Netherlands WHICH IS STILL AT WAR WITH SPAIN. this gives additional points to the Dutch.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

French is the ugliest language ever spoken. Dutch is beautiful. Points to the Dutch!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

But Belgium has Flanders and Wallonia, Flemish and Walloons.

so there really are 6 different ways to decribe belgium/belgianness, so kate not just insane, but wrong, too...

Big up your collective belgian chest!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

French = ugly = kate = mental

I wish my french was better, I love speaking it.

Holland = flat as a pancake
Belgium = green wooded hills

Another nice point for Belgium.

I'll give Holland a point for Cruiff though, he does manage to beat Eric Gerets and Enzo Scifo (put together)

― chris (chris), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I think weed is rubbish, but I like Gabba. I think both Tintin and Belgian beer are great. The Dutch person I met most recently was my colleague Andre, an affable fellow who I like quite a bit. The Belgian person I met most recently was 'the first fackin pank in fackin Brussel', who was an outrageous grade-one mentalizer. I think Belgium is winning.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Belgium gave us King Leopold. The Dutch win.

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:42 (twenty-two years ago)

i also like the way that belgium is predominantly made up of dutch-speaking catholics and french-speaking protestants, therefore is mainly a big bunch of folk who didn't really fit in with either france or holland. big old nation of ecclesiastical misfits = belgium winning by a mile

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The Dutch have reclaimed the land from the sea! Without the Dutch the entire earth would be covered in water!

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I could live with Kings Lynn being the new Atlantis - point to Belgium.

― chris (chris), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

where's my Dutch posse, I'm getting creamed here

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 July 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Where is Erik? We need his help!

(And me sitting here with a Hoegaarden pintglass on my desk. Filled with water, though.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

you must have stolen that kate...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:03 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not mine, obviously! If it were mine, it would be Oranjeboom or something. Clearly.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:06 (twenty-two years ago)

oranjeboom... oranje-mo fo'in-boom!?!?! and you slag off stella?!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i've got about 20 of those Hoegaarden glasses, they're great

trying to balance things for the Dutch tho..

Johann Cruyff (who's the most famous Belgian footballer?)
Architecture (from the Reijksmuseum (sp?) to those cube apartments in Rotterdam, great stuff - and the Tuschinskitheater is the most gorgeous Gothic/art deco building i've been in)
Canals
Focus
Anita Dels from 2 Unlimited
Van Gogh

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, the Dutch win on architecture alone!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:16 (twenty-two years ago)

and cheese!

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:18 (twenty-two years ago)

It was touch and go there for a while but it looks like the Dutch have pulled out a last second win.

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Mmmm, Edam! Gouda!

And APPLEBOLLEN or whatever the freak they are spelled. Dutch pastries RULE!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

way more belgian artists than dutch ones, the belgians have great anchitecture and canals, football not important at all - belgians still ahead...

don't bring cheese into this, otherwise we'll have a massive debate about how england, switzerland and france shit on allcomers...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Cheese? you mean like the Belgian cheese with Chinmay Belgian beer in it that tastes like the best thing in the world?

I gave Holland Football earlier in the thread (although historically they are miles better)

And Architecture? Like Antwerp? Beautiful place.

Belgium wins fashion too.

― chris (chris), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Plastic Bertrand, Django" Reinhardt, Jaques Brel, Rene Magritte, Jean-Marc Bosman (a la the Bosman ruling) and, wait for it... Audrey Hepburn were Belgian *raises arms aloft in victory* I thank you...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Alright, could someone please explain the great Netherlands/Flanders/Belgium mystery to me? Where the historical boundaries have been etc. because haven't the Flemmish actually been Dutch at some point?

Considering my ancestory, I should probably know all this, but then again, fuck the load of them as they kicked my ancestors out in 1647 or something, and when I went to look in the museum in Amsterdam, the exhibit about the Voortrekkers was all closed and shit.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Audrey Hepburn owns this thread

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

uh oh, beer in cheese? steady...steady...

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

It's too confusing to go into details, but roughly: Belgium and The Netherlands were both part of the Holy Roman Empire. Bits of Holland escaped, then Belgium got Spanished, then lots of war, then attempt to reunify B+TN then fights then now.

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, this is So Confusing.

So, properly, those Flemmish painters which are supposedly counting for the Belgians were neither Belgian nor Dutch but actually property of the Habsburgs until the 30 Years War... and oooh, my head hurts.

It still doesn't explain about the Voortrekkers, though.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

(And is anyone going to throw in a rogue vote for Luxembourg?)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 12 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Flemish != Dutch. If you suggest otherwise to a Flemish or Dutch person they are likely to get v.tense at you.

"Oh your a frog, Im sorry"
"Im BELGIAN!" < /SCTV>

I wanna visit both those places.

KATE, you can go to hell for putting TMBG in my head at the mere mention of Old New York was once New Amsterdam, why they ever changed it... Istanbul... Canstantanople... Im loosing my mind....I'll be humming this all day... Istanbul...
:P

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Vortreckers probably from both Flanders and The Netherlands proper, since they were both part of the spanish netherlands at the time and full of persecuted protestants.

x post

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I now have a mental image of my friend Echo protesting very loudly "But uh am nuuuuht Belgian!!!"

Flemish is more like Dutch than it is like French.
(It is probably more like Dutch than Afrikaans, as well, but that's besides the point.)

Language family trees fascinate me. Curse the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible for standardising them all! Otherwise we would be free to speak and spell as we damn pleased! (Though some of us - I'm looking at you, Noodles - continue to do so anyway...)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Taking sides: Voortrekkers vs. Arcadian/Cajuns - who is more persecuted?

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Voortrekkers under the thumb of Spain vs Cajuns under the thumb of Great Britain. But then the British got bored and decided to oppress the Boers as well.

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes Kate Flemish is like Dutch but Belgian is bilingual: it has Flemish and Walloon. Walloon is like French.

(I have a feeling that strictly speaking Belgium is trilingual because Bruxellois counts but I'm not sure I know what I'm on about. I think this information may have been contained in the legendary lost book which contained supernatural rock truths but that's another story.)

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

(is this same book that claims that Germany is not a nation state?)

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

No it's the book which invented post rock. In 1983 (or something).

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

(no it's more important than that)

(Mainland Europeans are great with their languages which are basically the same but can on no account be admitted as such)

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I was going to post something very facetious about Voortrekkers, but then I decided the better of it. Because people still get very offended when you bring up Apartheid, even if you're joking. Sigh.

(The above post in no way shape or form supports Apartheid or any other form or racism, except maybe making fun of the Belgians because, well, they deserve it, what with those funny accents and all.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

And what sort of a bloody name for a language is Walloon? Honestly!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

(danish vs norwegain(1) to thread)

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm slightly suprised no-one's played the "institutionalised paedophilia => holland by forfeit" yet.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

???

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you not remember the big Belgian paedophile scandal of a couple of years ago?

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

No. I have a ten second memory.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Which is still awaiting trial - authorities curiously reluctant to press the case.

I still vote Belgium though.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Walloon is like French

Walloon is French... it's as French as Flemish is Dutch. Belgium is trilingual as there are small pockets of German speakers along its borders, but they are pretty discriminated against in a linguistic sense.

"institutionalised paedophilia => holland by forfeit"

erm, glass houses and stuff. anyone read about islington lately...?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

And Andrew Farrell is linked with Islington how....????? Blimey the conspiracy runs further than we thought!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Have I missed something? Has Islington just become a suburb of Amsterdam?

And Walloon is still a dumb name for a language.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

It's from Wallonia isn't it?

It's weird but I really like Holland, but it definitely comes a good third or fourth in my own european super league.

― chris (chris), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

(And as I type this, I just got handed a roaming agreement for Vodaphone The Netherlands...)

So! Belgium have 3 mobile phone companies, The Netherlands have 5. The Dutch win!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Euro mobile phone companies are pestilent because whenever you go abroad you become a pawn in their secret electronic war and your provider changes every half hour, accompanied by a "Welcome to Belgium/Holland/Spain/etc" text. The fewer the better: death to competition!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha, you think that's bad, you should see what happens behind the scenes in their secret electronic wars!

However, soon you won't have to worry because T-Mobile, Vodaphone and Idea Bharti Cellular Hutchison & Gamble will own the world anyway. Sigh.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

they're much tougher on music piracy in Belgium = LOSERS

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

on the other hand, you have Radio Soulwax

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Nederland = Ned R land

I have invoked the Ned clause. The Dutch win.

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

very good point - 2ManyDJs... Belgian!
Still reckon Audrey's the clincher, though...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I admit that whenever I see an athlete from the country of NED winning something at the Olympics I'm a happy sort.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually it's because it's secretly Ned Flanders Land.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 10 July 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

RUIN my dream why don't you.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

don't forget that the Netherlands also have a linguistic minority, the plucky Frisians who speak yet another language that diverged from German at some point in the middle ages.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

What I remember learning about Belgium (this may all be wrong): most densely populated country in Europe. More wars on its soil than anywhere else in Europe => if they find the room to start swinging weapons properly, they'll all be killing each other and the country will be gone.

Ditto Holland: it is phenomenally dumb to build a country that is, but for temporary contingency, basically underwater. One bad night at sea and the country vanishes. Also they thought tulips were worth millions.

But I'm a football fan, so Holland wins easily.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 10 July 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I just saw on the Teletext this morning that Belgium plans to legalise prostitution. I'm not sure if that counts for or against...

― kate (kate), Friday, 11 July 2003 09:00 (twenty-two years ago)

well 'for', of course. duh.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 11 July 2003 09:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Frisian is very similar to Old English apparently. Frisia also responsible for black and white cows.

― RickyT (RickyT), Friday, 11 July 2003 09:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Nath, hurry up and post to this frigging thread ;-)

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 11 July 2003 09:25 (twenty-two years ago)

It's the Belgians Roper, or we gotta break something.

― Alex K (Alex K), Sunday, 13 July 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Belgium used to have dEUS = Belgium wins.

― j.lu (j.lu), Sunday, 13 July 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Belgium still has dEUS but now they are rubbish

― Ed (dali), Sunday, 13 July 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

weren't they always rubbish?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 13 July 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

first two albums were great, then klas janzoons left and it all fell apart.

― Ed (dali), Sunday, 13 July 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

whatever you say ed. whatever you say ;-)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 13 July 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

godverdomme! i don't check ilx for half an hour and you have all gone out of your minds!!

― Erik, Sunday, 13 July 2003 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

andrew please explain the dutch inistitutionised paedophilia part of holland?

― Erik, Sunday, 13 July 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

that was the belgians, surely?

― Ed (dali), Sunday, 13 July 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i think he meant that yes

― Erik, Sunday, 13 July 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

from way up high, to down here i've read this t'read and
still
no
mention
w
h
a
t
s
o
e
v
e
r
of
DE SUBJECTIVISTEN
?!?

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Sunday, 13 July 2003 21:20 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah... but surely that is open to anyone who can read/write Dutch - and therefore might have both Dutch and Belgian people posting to it?

upthread Kate mentioned the Voortrekkers in a "poor persecuted Voortrekkers" kind of way. aren't these people the cockfarmers who left the Cape Colony because the Brits said they were persecuting the Africans a bit too much?

― DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 13 July 2003 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Fun fact about a part of the Belgian-Dutch border (scroll down to "Geographical situation").

― OleM (OleM), Sunday, 13 July 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

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