Does anybody REALLY care about foxhunting?

Yo, I care about foxhunting, & I would NEVER do anything to upset Britain's lovable quaint class system!

I have no sense of moral outrage. I find it a fairly ridiculous looking pastime, much akin to going after the pigeons of trafalgar square in world war one biplanes, now that's something i'd pay to see.

I find it very hard to take a moral stance against fox hunting when i'm an urbanite, no nothing of it and am pro culling pigeons. (I come from a family who take delight in shooting plastic pellets at pigeons with a spring loaded bb gun from the kitchen window)

The whole thing about fox hunting is that it's an excuse for a bunch of people to get together, go "fwah fwah fwah" and race about the countryside, playing with horses and dogs. What I don't understand is why they have to use a fox at all. Why can't they use an *artificial* fox, since the rest of us have to be content with artificial everything else? In fact, a nonsense, this class system codrottle, why don't they just do what they *really* want to do, which is release a *serf* and hunt the serf down with dogs? I would have no problem with that.

I've been there: hunting is disgusting sub-human display, dressing numb brutality up as faux 'historical tradition'. They REALLY DO get the horn for the kill, sweaty older men groping their nieces at the moment of death. They REALLY DO employ local thugs with terriers to raid badger sets, root out foxes, beat up sabateurs.

The hunt as a traditional pastime is false history - the landowners have always been oppressors of the rural environment and in England THE MAJORITY OF RURAL PEOPLE are in favour of an outright ban.

"it keeps the population down" - does it fuck, they kill a few hundred a year throughout the country.

"foxes are vermin" - foxes only discovered killing chickens because we invented myxamitosis (excuse spelling) and got rid of all the rabbits, plus what are the chickens there for, pets?

There is a class-war thing within the anti-hunt movement but it's a small minority, I'd estimate 1/5th in my experience. Meanwhile the pro-hunt lobby has hijacked the rural movement completely, making a joke of any chance of revitalising our countryside by alienating most decent people. Why should I care about foot'n'mouth if they won't get civilised?

"foxes only discovered killing chickens": most of what you say is on the money but *this* is Grade A bollocks...
(Also: AGE of pervs and perps = irrelevent to yr agrt)

"the pro-hunt lobby has hijacked the rural movement": actually — dialectically speaking zzzz — this is In the Final Analysis a Good Thing, since it sharpens the contradictions. Rural working class forced to realign, as Patrician Support no longer forthcoming, true interests revealed etc etc. Apparent coalition between landowners and tenants for years was unspoken, taken for granted , passive, assumed blah blah: under the gun, and the emergence of activism, bogus solidarity breaks down.

I bet Basil Brush cares : Boom Boom. (Actually what with Basil being a bit of a toff it would be interesting to see which side of the argument he favoured.)

Artificial fox? How exactly would that work? One of the joys of chasing something is that it is unpredicatable. The fox is in its element, that is one of the few things it has in its favour. Of course it is being persued by superior numbers, dogs and the element of surprise is pretty much in the hunters favour. If a hunt sab suggested to a hunt that instead of the fox they should chase him it might be more interesting - but I would imagine the fox is more interesting to chase and goes on longer. And doesn't wear New Model Army T-shirts.

Mark S: You're right. I get het up on this one, sorry.

Pete: er.. drag hunting? bloke on a horse smells of fox, fucks off an hour ahead? they all chase it? lots of fun, still a bunch of idiots riding around but at least nothing gets ripped up at the end.

From someone who rides....with a drag you get somebody to run off ahead dragging a rag soaked w/fox piss, then everybody chases after. Out in the US West, there is a version where they actually chase a running *human*(no,they don't kill him,who ever touches him first wins.) Or you could just dump the dogs and fox and just get on your horse and go for a fucking ride.

GAAAAHHHH!!! Lollies list people taking over the world!

I'd like it better if they killed the human when they caught him. Though this being the US, it would probably have to be a black person, which wouldn't be nice. Better if they kidnapped city slicker yuppie businessmen types, but where would the sport be in that? You'd track him by the bleep of his mobile.

Fox hunting in the UK inseperable from class and politics. It is a dud, but the reasons it has become a dud are duds in themselves.

Should meat-eaters who are in favour of the death penalty be executed?

How about "pro-life" nutters who advocate the death penalty for people who receive/perform abortions?

I just say no to sex with pro-lifers.

I'd say that's their problem to begin with, it just pisses them off that other people are having sex and they aren't. That's why a lot of them are opposed to any sort of birth control whatsoever, they would like people to not have sex. Ever.

I love foxes, they are forms of cats you know. They shouldn't be killed. They should go on cowhunts instead.

Foxes related to cats? Am I missing a joke here? They're dogs, woman!

Dearie me.

Ally, I think you'll find that foxes are members of the CANINE family, and therefore related to DOGS...

And pro-lifers too.

No, they look like cats to me so I decided they are cats.

We should feed pro-lifers to cats, at least those vehement violent ones.

Ally, you may be able to bend truth to suit your will in the kingdom of ILE, but in the animal kingdom, foxes are DOGS!!! Hello!!!

Instead of foxes, we could always use Doompatrol... there's an idea!

Slavering hounds leap ditch.... falter.... stop dead.... staring and whimpering pitifully....

turn on heels.... hmmmmm?....

.....

scamper *rolls eyes*.... back to stables....

lolliegirl loses again....

hmmmm................*shrugs*

Good boy! Here's a biscuit!!! Now you can go back to the kennels and listen to some of that earth-shatteringly progressive music by Oasis, the Strokes and the Cosmic Ruff Riders! Ruff! Ruff!

We are so...... asking for it......

I strongly doubt that doompatrol would ever come here, I just don't think his ego could survive in an environment like this. People like that need the security of rules to make them feel like bad-asses.

its...only...a...matter...of......time.

who's doom patrol? is he like Luther Gaylord on socialist music boards?

"socialist music boards" = scariest thing i have ever read on this board (not that it's not what i *vote*: but BOY do I avoid talking music wiv em...)

Go here, Chris: http://www.ilxor.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005b YX

He'll probably like you, tho, Chris, as you are A) a Springsteen fan, and B) male.

Ludicrous little troller with shit taste in music who got into a thread where I was out-arguing him, and responded by slagging off the Lollies (??? I never even brought up the fact that I was in a band) instead of replying to my comments. It's actually quite hysterical to watch him rant, because he makes such amazing leaps of illogic... "I hate all scenesters, death to scenesters!" to "I am personally good mates with Alan McGee" in one paragraph.

He's actually grown so predictable that the amusement value has rather warn off. Sigh.

I see what you mean. Got any info on your band masonic? Interested, email me off list if you don't want to hype.

It's exactly like Luther. Billy Bragg gb gets heated, then Luther turns up and he's got old enemies and everything collapses in insult heaven. Billy turned up to answer questions and Luther hijacked the afternoon, shouting about sellouts until Billy pissed off and then snuck back early the next morning while Luther was still asleep. Great for me because I was coincidentally up early and caught the second Q&A.

Nobs to the lot of them.

OOoh, TT, you are a braver soul than me! I predict... he will respond with something along the lines of "Oooh, you are in a BAND!!! You are a MEGATIVE SCENESTER HEAD" and rag on ad nauseum, projecting his own fears and insecurities as evidence. Just wait.

Ed, I have written you offlist about Ver Lolleez. :-)

Sounds like the majour fuckwit who nearly toook the wire list down. Started off by asking why the wire did hip hop reviews, it desended into major slanging then someone threw in the dreaded if you don't like hip hop then your racist thing and it all got nasty, trouble is its email so you have to turn it off when it goes like that.

Actually there are several opinionated halfwits like that on the wire list, who make it an unpleasant place to be. i don't know why I still subscribe.

The Wire list made me stop buying The Wire for a year or so. It wasn't even the worst list I've been on but yeah, they are corrosive. The Magnetic Fields mailing list is ATROCIOUS. The Clientele one is nice though because it's so small.

Secret mailing lists are the best.

indeed. I was on the UKIndie mailing list for a while in '97, went the same way. Although did divert me for many hours at work.

un-be-FUCKING-lievable. Chris, you flamed him far worse than I *ever* did, back in the day, and he cowed down and made nice with you. I post under an assumed name, he cows down and plays nice with me. I post as me, even saying something reasonable, he flips out and starts having a go at me. I just don't get it.

It's hard to take him seriously because he's so off the wall most of the time, but it's sad when people like that ruin mailing lists, etc. Then again, it does take two to make a flame war, don't it?

Was in the mood for a fight, then it didn't happen - quite impressive really. This place rocks.

HAS MARRIAGE TAMED DOOMPATROL?

Meanwhile, yes. Heavenly = best of all the retroish labels, I think.

Oops, getting my fora mixed up there. And so my attempt to be on- topic was in fact off-topic. D'oh!

I think it's about time we had a music thread here.

Do you really think he's married? Do you really think a woman would put up with him? OK, no, sorry, that was a DP-style low blow of the sort I get cross when he hurls at me.

Want a fight, Chris? Post under my name. Not that I encourage the use of other peoples screen names on this forum. It's interesting, because he's talking quite happily with my male screen name over there. Wonder what will happen if I post as me again. Yes, this is stupid and infantile, but I am proving a point.

Anyway, yes, for the most part, this forum is surprisingly flame free. Went through a bad patch just before the split into two forums, but I think splitting actually made matters better. Those who just want to spout rubbish and chatter come over here, those who actually want to have serious conversations about music go over there.

my last post to this thread was utter rubbish.

I'm all in favour of fox hunting - eventually only the hardest and smartest foxes will breed, and one day the hunters will be confronted with Basil Brush DRIVING A FUCKING TANK.

I think Chris is right in that most people in the countryside are in no way part of the hunting culture (which is a select, internal thing rather like a public school), and that wider rural issues have obviously been deeply distorted.

However I also think Mark is right in that the polarisation of the last few years has broken down certain unfounded myths about "everyone in the countryside working together".

To answer the question: four or five years ago I was vociferously anti-hunting; I'm obviously still opposed to the practice, but it's gone way down in my list of personal priorities as my awareness of other rural issues has heightened. That said, I'd still get a tinge of pleasure when hunting is banned (and I still believe it is when, rather than if: Labour and the Lib Dems have consolidated themselves in most rural seats, and the Tories only gained one seat - Taunton - off the back of their pro-hunt rhetoric, hardly the basis the Tories would need to claim convincingly to *anyone* that there is a significant movement on their side).

Nice bit of spectacularly fucking crass attitude-taste stereotyping from Pete, incidentally.

I don't mind hunting too much if the hunters EAT what they shoot. Can you eat a fox?? Not after the dogs have ripped it to bits.

NO!! What kind of person in the right mind would want to eat a fox? It would be very inhuman. I think it would be just like eating a dog.

Perhaps they could all eat each other? er....(NB fri night i|\| w/a bunch ov cans ov newky brown = I may not make much sense)

I bet fox meat is tendony and tough. As such, they probably make a decent, though gamey, stew, like squirrels. But I haven't ever killed a fox except once, horribly, with a car, and what was left wasn't really edible.

What do yo mean by stew? Do you know anyone who has eaten fox meat by any means? If so, I will be shocked and appalled!

I haven't had fox stew, though I have had Brunswick stew, and I reckon foxes are sinewy like squirrels. And fox hunters are in it for the 'sport' of it, challenging because foxes do seem clever, and not for the vittles. But the Nentsy and other groups eat fox with little controversy from the west.

I really don't see how they're comparable to dogs. The taboo against dog as meat has to do with their status as a domestic, generally household, animal, not that they're really smart. I mean, pigs are smarter than dogs or foxes and they're a dietary staple in much of the world.

Madonna and Stella McCartney are still friends, EVEN THOUGH Madonna has taken up hunting and wearing fur, and Stella believes in animal rights. I think Stella should make a wig out of Madonna's hair, and Madonna should put Stella in a cage!

What are you talking about, Charles?

Madonna is a famous pop star, and Stella McCartney is the daughter of a famous pop star (Paul McCartney, of 'The Beatles'). The 'tabloid' (second rate newspaper) industry makes money by providing details of the private lives of singing stars, etc, to the public, and these two feature in the tabloid media. The story about Stella and Madonna differing over 'animal rights' was recently featured in the tabloids. People who believe in animal rights argue that because animals suffer pain in a way analogous to humans, they shouldn't be hurt or killed. Madonna wears fur, which is the skin of animals, and kills them on organised shooting missions called hunts, whereas Stella is an advocate of animal rights. I concluded my comments with a joke, in which I imagined that the two treated each other as animals: Madonna's 'pelt', her hair, would be made into a hat by Stella, while Stella would be put in a cage by Madonna, cages being used frequently to hold and transport animals.

Well, I disagree with the guy who said that pigs are smarter than foxes. How can that be? Most people think pigs are pretty dumb.

I CARE!

And most people are pretty dumb.

Pigs are pretty friggen swift you'd be surprised. They still stink though.

Pigs are stupid as hell. Remember that one that escaped from the farm over here some time ago, that everyone said was sooooo smart? Well, the stupid porker got caught while trying to check into a hotel room using its' own credit card. This is while being on the run. Don't believe all that 'hogwash' about so-called porcine intelligence!

its, not its'.

It seems to me that if you ban fox hunting you must ban fishing too. Why is it less cruel to stick a barbed hook in the mouth of a fish, drag through the water for 1/2 an hour, and then pull it out of its natural habitat into the air. There, it flounders about a bit until it 'drowns' in the air, or the fisherman puts it out of its misery by bashing its head in. Could it be that the reason is that fish are slimy, cold, smelly things, whereas foxes are cuddly dog-like animals a bit like your very own Fido you have a home, and take out for 'walkies' so it can shit all over the pavement/local park? If fox hunters want to preserve their ability to hunt, maybe they should change the way they hunt. Perhaps after they find the fox, they could bait a barbed hook with meat, catch the fox with the hook in its mouth, and drag it for half an hour behind the horse. Then chuck it in a pond, suitably weighted, and let it drown. If it's good enough for fish.......

Except if you eat the fish afterwards, which surely makes some difference. I know most fishing people (rod and line) don't.

Foxhunting: the Beaufort Hunt used to gather outside my childhood home. Contrary to the theory that it's city people against the 'sport' whereas country people love it, we all fucking hated these people and would do anything to piss them off. And the farmers hated them, because they rampaged across their land with no concern for damage, and they bred foxes to make sure they had their fun, contrary to the weakest-ever-argument of pest-control.

Going by the theory that it's all good fun and the foxes don't really mind, I propose only a minor rule change. All these arseholes tirn up in their red outfits on horseback with their packs of ravenous hounds. A draw is taken, and one of the participants becomes the prey.

As mentioned earlier, there's been several varients where people are chased instead of foxes. They always strike me as being creepier than the traditional versions. (I used to hope that it would show up in Seinfeld, but it's too late for that one now.)

I saw a movie like that where the prison guards (and invited guests, like the Senator) were hunting prisoners, tally-ho style. Then fiesty lawyer Tia Carrere saves the day or something.

Or how about a game where you start a mad-cap religion, get loads of people to become devoted disciples, so you can sleep with all the women and the men have to train to fly planes but not land them cos they are going to crash them into big buildings owned by people who you don't like, then those people send a massive army after you but you go and hide in a really rocky mountainous country, and then it becomes a bit of 'hide and seek around the world' where despite the efforts of the hunting pack they can't find you even though your face is now more famous than Elvis or Che or Stalin, and you keep sending them badly made videos showing you sitting in a desert with a towel on your head laughing at them. Maybe if we sent all of The Hunt(s) out to this rocky country, it would be a real challenge for them: the ultimate Hunt. With a Tally- Ho! and all the dogs, the horns, and the jackets and the drinks, they might find the bastard and then we'd all like them again. Good idea eh?

I think foxhunters are dickless rednecks who don't know the concept of industrialized farming. If you don't like my opinion...too bad. All foxhunters are missing the point of the 'good' foxes can do on their farm. Eating rodents is one advantage they have.

So why bother foxhunting. If you foxhunt, you live in the past...BIG TIME! If you want to make money, get a better job, besides farming. Work at an oil refinery or a hydo-electric plant...(if your intelligent enough to afford it that is) and leave foxes ALONE!!!!!!!

Allah, you Brits are peevish, hidebound assholes. Sometimes
I wonder if the caste system didn't rub off on you.
Since when is it wrong or hypocritical to be friendly with someone you disagree with, even strongly? It's called being open. If I
only associated with folks I agreed with my social life would
be fucking boring indeed.

For the record: the fact that there are people shedding tears
and spending money over little red FOXES (while injustice and
cruelty against people is far from sparse) is a muthafucking
joke.

its not impossible to care about (and spend money on) more than one thing in a day