New postmodern music criticism and writing -classic or dud

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Im refering to that kind of mindset really common hera at ilm ,that is concerned with the dignification of mainstream hip hop and chart pop as a reaction to white guitar music or rockist music writnig ,even if it sometimes shits on critical darlings and guitar music only for the sake of provocation

― suxor, Wednesday, 23 July 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

anti-rockism != dignification

any, dnftt

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Why not?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

well, cuz first of all "dignification" innit even a word

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

god, the trolls get worse and worse.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

where's the goat?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

i think yr it, pal

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a good question it's just been worked over any number of times.

Also, what does "dnftt" mean?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

if something has been worked over any number of times recently within a group of people can it really be a "good" question?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Oddly enough he/she/it might have a vague semblance of a point (popular theme heresabouts: "I like [pop act] because it goes against everything [rokkisht act] does", aka "The Reverse DeRogatis"). A legitimate question could be extruded from this -- how many of us write as a direct reaction to the rockist/indie "mainstream pop/rap equals cackfest" mindset, rather than just touting music on its own terms? Why do we do it that way, how important/pertinent is it, and especially how conducive is it to the readers liking/disliking more music than they might previously have enjoyed/hated?

There are no bad questions, only BAD PEOPLE

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I wrote all that before the previous two posts and added that last line to be a dong

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

dnftt=do not feel too threatened

― dan (dan), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

That abbreviation sort of defeats its intended purpose, then.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

nate and ams defending rockist troll shockah.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling Clover being irritating douchebag shocker

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

amateurist that is not it's usual meaning, silly bird

i hate to be blount here, but i would really like to see one non-joke example of this on ilm from any writer worth respecting

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

which i guess is a more succinct way of expressing nate's last point

not the sterling one, the other one

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

also what in the fuck does "postmodernism" have to do with the question? "good ol' modernist guitar rock"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(Aside: This "shockah!" stuff is really getting irksome. I have to gulp down another mug of "mea culpa" for the times I've used it myself, and I promise to avoid it in the future.

I think the problem is that "____ in ____ shockah!" tends to freeze people into these caricatures, and puts everyone on the defensive as a result. )

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

any writer worth respecting

That saves me some time. I'll be over here playing Arkanoid.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

(aside: if you're sick of "shockah!" then honestly, what the fuck are you doing on ILx?)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

"postmodern" means "using, like, humor and weird references and stuff"

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks for loaning me the Arkanoid paddle, pal--my score's beating yours haha!

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah well you lucked out with that tri-ball powerup

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

"postmodernism" means "I'm just another silly indie boy troll who's probably never picked up a book of philosophy in his life."

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

what can I say? [[exhales on fingertips, rubs back of hand across lapel]] skillz, son, skillz

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

But Matos I think it's a counterproductive rhetorical device. It turns a discussion away from the ideas putatively under discussion, and towards little infights in which people attack and defend theirs and others' honor.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

i wanna play arkanoid now :(

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

But Amateurist you're asking a lepoard to change its spots.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Who is the leopard here? ILX in general?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish Graham could put together one of those fancy graphs so we could find up if "Shockah!" usage has actually been up ...or whether I'm only perceiving it more since it's been directed at me a few times lately.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

ding ding ding!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.boxylucha.com.mx/images/wallpapers/muestras/shocker800x600_ByL_02_small.jpg

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The "Shockahs!" came for the Rockists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Rockist;
The "Shockahs!" came for the Popists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Popist;
The "Shockahs!" they came for me - And there was no one left to object.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

(Oh, I just realized what DNFTT means.)

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess when I read your new handle I imagine that New Yorker guy with the piece-nez, only green.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

This isn't trollish behavior, by the way. To me, Sterling's typical dismissiveness only underscores the value of questioning the popist mentality. (Sheesh, Ams and Nate aren't rockist Nazis just because they think it's a good question!)

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess:

http://www.newyorkermag.com/eustice.gif

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

pince-nez < monocle

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I stand corrected. Thanks Nate.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

By the way, that dude's name is Eustace Tilly. How ridiculous is that?

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Not as ridiculous as Strongo Hulkington.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

http://members.aol.com/dubplatestyle/newyorker.jpg

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

This is kind of a silly thread to be posting on ile anyway.

― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

This question has the problem that it usually has: the assumption that liking pop music must be a position held in relation to indie/guitar music; that no serious people could really like Girls Aloud and not care about the Stereophonics; that people saying so are trying to be provocative. It's a position without evidence or sense.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

i can't honestly believe i just spent time doing that...this is how bored and lonely i am

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess I think that was pretty great, for what it's worth.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

aside: if you're sick of "shockah!" then honestly, what the fuck are you doing on ILx?

Maybe he's hoping for those special occasions when a decent discussion gets going?

― Al Andalous, Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

you mean like the 847 other threads on this very subject?

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin, obv. there are "serious people" who like pop and don't care nearly as much about guitar-rock. (I don't know him that well, but it seems like Tico Tico fits that bill.) I think maybe what Suxor is talking about is a kneejerk anti-rockist stance that's as bothersome as rockism itself. I don't think it's fair to say that this is the prevailing ILX mindset or anything, but it does crop up every now and then. But Matos is right; this has been hashed out a lot already.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The primary fallacy in this statement is the assumption that somebody cares about the Stereophonics.

― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I love how the Stereophonics are this major touchstone for the English among us, to which most of us Americans are completely oblivious. Are Dave Matthews Band the American equivalent?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

"The Reverse DeRogatis"

I just get this vision of a dull dimly lit gym somewhere in Podunk, dispirited middle-school boys being yelled at by a coach to correctly to "The Reverse DeRogatis."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Ew, that makes me think of Reverse DeRogatis Style.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

What hath I wrought?!?!

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

who here is shitting on critical darlings and guitar music only for the sake of provocation? I WANT NAMES.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd say classic, how about you?

― thom west (thom w), Thursday, 24 July 2003 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the problem is that "____ in ____ shockah!" tends to freeze people into these caricatures, and puts everyone on the defensive as a result. )

ams yr. ALWAYS a defensive characature!

(and i love you)

(yes. like that.)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 July 2003 04:31 (twenty-two years ago)

You don't have to pretend to be making nice-nice.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 24 July 2003 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not pretending. now come here and gimme some lovin'.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 July 2003 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I do it 'seriously' and I do it 'to provoke'. I do it because my ears tell me that mainstream hip-hop and chart pop are mostly great and white guitar music that doesn't get in the charts is mostly rubbish. So what?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 24 July 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I was hoping this thread was about the Morley book btw! (which FT and NYLPM get a mention in and quite right too after all the arselicking we've done).

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 24 July 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

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