Why is Religious Education part of the curriculum but not Political Education?

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Prompted by the Pillars of Capitalism and the RE Teachers threads. I think learning about other religions and cultures is all very well and good and admirable and all that and fully approve of it being taught in our schools. We had RE at least twice a week for five years, up till the age of 16 and were well versed in all that stuff. We were never taught about politics (outside the realm of 'social issues' and the occasional thing about the Nazis), despite this being far more relevant to the lives of the majority of people.

My guess is the average teenager approaching doesn't know the difference between a Tory, a liberal and a socialist. Should 'political education' be taught in schools? How would it be taught/regulated/controlled? Would it result in more people voting?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 13:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

because THEY don't want you to vote.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

That's funny, cuz in my schooling I didn't have religious ed but I did have political ed.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

good point. good idea. the problem with History is that it is exactly that, so while the focus is on politically-charged conflicts through the ages, this does not provide ENOUGH of an understanding about the nature of politics and governance today. it should at least be an option from the age of 13. the only drawback is i remember when i was that age i found politics the most tedious subject on the planet, tho i was interested in debating and stuff so if it was structured more in favour of that rather than theory and presentation of facts (ala History) then it could work.

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

Did anyone (in the UK) study politics, or have the option to, before the age of about 16?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

There has been a push to get some sort of civics included in the national curriculum over the last few years, but as far as I know it has come to naught. I'm not sure that this is the same thing as you're asking about though, civics being more about the political process rather than the examination of differing political viewpoints. The latter would be incredibly difficult to introduce as a compulsory subject (anyone else remember tory press fulminations over anti-racism and sexism educational initiatives in the 80s), and fraught with difficulties once in place.

RickyT (RickyT), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

Same as Nicklicous.

Texas Sam (thatgirl), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

They teach 'citizenship' now don't they? Though it's been some years since I went near a school so who knows? I had nothing until General Studies 'A Level'.

Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

I will ask Isabel about the citizenship thing. There certainly should be civics lessons - not just politics but the basics of things like the tax system.

We had a current affairs lesson once a week for about a year.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:15 (twenty-one years ago) link

Canadian history as taught in Ontario (grade 10, so for 15 year olds) did include a high school level glossing over of the political parties and thoughts that caused union and how those formed into the two party system more or less in effect up till the PC self destruction. Im trying to remeber at what point our class stopped in time but I do know the textbook continued up to PET. Though as it went past the turn of the century it dropped alot of politics.
Being a catholic school board everyone was forced to take a grade twelve social science course in World Religions and of course the other 12 years you got catholic education. Due to the way our country was formed, the catholic school system is still considered public schooling. Aparently the UN doesn't appriciate this one bit and has rapped our country's knuckles over this.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hmmm, my old school was terribly right-on and Islington style-liberal, I'm glad there was no specific political education.

jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

I did some politics as part of my Social Science GCSE. It was OK, but then my teacher shared my politics.

RickyT (RickyT), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

Of course, the potential for abuse/indoctrination of such a system is even greater than that of RE.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

In an older age, we had a language, a vocabulary for this sort of thing.

*plonk*

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 17:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

but calum that would be ally learning it, assuming she didn't know it.

anyway none of those topics would probably be what a political education class would cover anyway.

anyway can you just limit yr. wounded-ego outbreaks to threads that she's actually on?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 17:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

I had to read that whole thread to figure out what RE even WAS. I assume it's a class where you learn about different religions. We don't have that. We do have government classes, where you talk politics for years at a time, and that's good and fun and helpful. But RE, I suspect, would be strongly opposed by a lot of people over here. Christians wouldn't want their kids knowing thing number one about the Koran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or buddha, or... shit... the Torah, nothing. We live in fear of the other, and damnit, we like it that way.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 17:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

Where'd my post go? Politcal censorship? "Waaaaah, but SAving Private Ryan said WE won the war" etc etc

Calz (Calz), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 17:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

We started learning about politics (and the third-grade teacher who started us off didn't call it citizenship or government, just politics) and we never knew how she voted because nothing doctrinaire was passed over to us, just a fairly close reading of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, some debates where people were chosen to enact a candidate's manifesto, then we voted on them, how elections work both in history and in current affairs scopes. But this being Minnesota it was probably a fairly MOR Democrat learning environment with a soft Con oh-God-these-TAXES centre.

There were also a LOT of smart kids who were pretty passionate about politics and since we started secondary school having been allowed to stay up and watch Nightline about the hostages, were very well informed. We were also a Know Your Rights bunch and really wanted to be able to vote (I come from a family where there was a lot of access - and exposure to - politicians and the media, including a President and a couple of VPs and I wasn't the only one because elected officials are really accessible there, even Senators).

Russia and the Middle East and fascisms got a lot of attention because of the high amount of Jewish kids whose grandparents were just beginning to explain about their tattoos etc. In high school - where the assistant principal was the (Republican) Mayor of the town, another voting incentive and a target for 'well my parents didn't vote for you, bucko' - the Gifted counselor organised Al Franken's brother, a Newsweek photographer, who brought us Greens from Germany, Sandinistas talking about Literazacion, and an anti-Zionist Jew who racked up a shitload of complaints from Jewish parents who sent their kids to Camp Herzl because of who it was named after, and sent money to settlements in Israel. One kid was a grandson/great-nephew of Leon Trotsky; one girl was from the Sharon family. A lot of kids were vocal Republicans and gunning for the Ivy League; in actuality quite a lot really did wind up in Washington working for older politicians of all parties. The important thing is that you could always access the personal side of any issue, get an intelligent summation, or somehow relate it to your own microcosm and vice-versa, and people were in the mood to talk.

Having said all that, I don't remember anything from the bog-standard Political Behaviour class even though I got an A+ because I ducked out of AP classes. The guy ermmmmed so much in lecture/discussions that we kept a tally sheet of these (record: 427 or so in 50 minutes).

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 17:50 (twenty-one years ago) link

anyway can you just limit yr. wounded-ego outbreaks to threads that she's actually on?

(I am on this thread, just not saying anything because I'm finding this intriguing--no school I went to had a religious education, other than some world religion elective you might take, but always forced us to take a social studies ie political history class every year. One thing we did have in school in Arizona that I thought peculiar was that Mormon kids were allowed to leave for several hours to attend seminary every day, which seemed a strange mixing of religion with public schooling: children of other religions were not seen doing similar things, why was seminary not an afterschool activity?)

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 17:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

Because Mormons are crazy rich?

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 17:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well yes, and also the metropolitan Phoenix area is the largest concentration of Mormons in the world barring Salt Lake City, and they run the entire government there, but I was hoping for fleshier answers perhaps on the complete contradiction that is proposed by allowing that.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 18:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

No, Ally: in my school Catholic kids would leave at random times to go to CCD and there were tons doing Hebrew school, which also occasionally cut into their school day. Obviously if kids are allowed absence for religious observances, they can be excused for the study of their religions too.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 18:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well that's what I'm asking about, because in my school CCD and Hebrew school were NOT allowable sections to take off. This also wasn't "occasional"--this was a for-credit section, suzy.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 18:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

in US public schools it is required; as social studies'citizenship in elementary/jr high and then a Civics requirement in high school. At least in the state of California.

Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 18:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ally, that's not just mondo bizzarro, it's legally actionable. Unless LDS seminary went and got state accreditation or something so schools had to recognise it and cough up the credits. Arizona is wack, right? Didn't they try to fuck with MLK day too?

Are you saying the kids who wanted to go to Hebrew or CCD were just plain not allowed to go, even if they made up the work?

Hebrew and Arabic I'm sure carried academic credit at my school, and anyway featured on quite a few college applications.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 19:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hebrew wasn't even offered at my high school, at least the three months I was there...and yes, MLK Day is not a legal holiday in AZ (or it wasn't when I lived there, could be different now). I was certain that was legally actionable though, but was told otherwise--I raised the point to someone else when I wanted to stop going full time, that it seemed that if they were allowed to leave for the second half of the day to do other schooling, I should be allowed as well. I was told no, they were signed up for official classes, and I'll be damned, LDS Seminary was in the catalog for my high school.

This all went into my reasoning for not continuing my education.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 19:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Kids went to temple for Hebrew, it wasn't available on campus and most of the Jewish kids did another foreign language in school anyway. But religion isn't really an issue in Minnesota in the way it might be in a Southern or Mormon state which asserts states' rights as a reason for allowing religion under the radar in what looks like an extremely selective manner.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 19:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

Arizona finally passed the MLK holiday in '92, but only after a long tourist boycott. It was offered as a city-only holiday in Tucson for a few years before that, tho (there was a big uproar when it was introduced because it had replaced Columbus Day).

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

Haha remember how the NFL refused to hold a Super Bowl in Arizona because of it? I was like, who the fuck wants to hold the Super Bowl at Sun Devil Stadium anyway, that place is ridiculous.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

The general consensus is that in the US you get taught about the US in school and, even then, get an overly patriotic version of US history.

Is this true? I am actually curious, when I lived with some Americans they couldn't tell me what a foreign sanction actually was.

Calz (Calz), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

Depends on which classes you take, the quality of the school, the quality of the teacher, the books chosen by the district, etc etc. In other words, lack of national standards means the answer is both yes and no.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

And judging by you it's yes right?

Calz (Calz), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

Actually that was a bit nasty. Ally gave a nice reply. Maybe she might stop buying Manics CDs after all.

Calz (Calz), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

http://www.bubblegun.com/images/manic1.gif

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

I went to Catholic school throughout my grade school and high school education. I remember learning both government/civics and religion throughout my educational career. We had our days divided to where it wasn't an "either/or" option but rather a "both" one. In fact, we weren't allowed to graduate from HS without taking both government and economics on top of our four years of religion, which we kept in mind as we did our course selections (our HS was run pretty much exactly like a college). In our senior year, if we had done solid work academically in our previous religion classes, we were allowed to go into Honors Religion, which was basically one year of learning world religions. I thank God each day for those lessons.

So yeah, I think both "political education" (in the form of government and comprehensive history courses) and "religious education" (at least in the form of comparative world religions classes) should be a part of the general curriculum. It's not a particularly politically correct answer, sure, because plenty of people out there seem more than eager to shun religion of all forms, but it's one I think is utterly vital to Us Humans.

Just Deanna (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 03:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

http://www.nzmusician.co.nz/images/06_back/1001%20Photos/clowndog.jpg

Dada, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 03:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

ally espouses the dictatorship of bitchcakes

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 04:01 (twenty-one years ago) link

RE should be part of the curriculum just so everybody realises it's bullshit. Politics is too important to leave to the education system, which is made of equal parts incompetence and stupidity

dave q, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 08:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

equal parts incompetence and stupidity

that could be said about politics itself as well.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 08:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

(or at least politics dubya-stylee)

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 08:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

we publish materials for teaching "citizenship" so i assume they actually do teach it in schools these days.

Alan (Alan), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 08:41 (twenty-one years ago) link

interestingly, and even though i majored in poli. sci. as an undergrad, it wasn't till i went to law school and took the legislation and administrative law classes that i really learned how american laws and regulations are made. learning about the peculiarities of the senate and the house, or the difference between an administrative "rule-making" and an administrative "adjudication" may be too much for someone who just wants the basics. i think that this stuff is important and shouldn't just be left to people with "elite" educations, but apparently not everyone else does.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 08:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

in scotland we do modern studies which although not exclusively dealing with politics covers the kind of areas your question mentioned.

leigh (leigh), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 10:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

Isabel sez:

Yes, you have to teach citizenship classes all through school from age 7. They focus on how to live as part of and treat a community.

But she hasn't really taught any herself so she's not sure of any exact topics.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 10:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

I learned a lot through Modern Studies - we studied Apartheid in 2nd and 3rd year which is, to this day, still something that I honestly feel grateful to high school for - I'd just sit there swallowing every details in disbelief that this shit took place. The amount of dipshits in my class that never seemed to grasp how fucked up that was, whilst I got graded "A" was fucking inbelievable. The twats.

Calz (Calz), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:24 (twenty-one years ago) link


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