Montenegro

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Do you believe that Montenegro will secede from Serbia, or, if this was to happen, would it have done so already, taking advantage of the post-milosevic confusion? Is Montenegro sufficiently differentiated from Serbia to pursue such a move, or is the will not there?

economically, do you think Montenegro would be better off without Serbia, or better pooling its resources. It has a landcape ideally suited to tourism but im not so sure about the infrastructure, though i believe it was relatively untouched (physically) by the implosion of Yugoslavia over the last 12 years?

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm going there on holiday so I'll let you know. I suppose the tourism office will have a leaflet on this sort of thing.

You twat.

― Kissin' Kate, Friday, 1 August 2003 08:41 (twenty-two years ago)

will you be near Lake Scutari?

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:46 (twenty-two years ago)

If what I've seen on Croatia and Slovenia is anything to go buy, everything remotely touristy will gloss over the whole of the last 25 years of history, except possibly the Winter Olympics in Sarajevo.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

that's SQUAT twat...i hate it when people omit vital details

how big is Montenegro anyway? bigger than San Marino i assume - although its name suggests it wouldn't be...

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Not sure, given that the international community, esp. the EU, is really pushing them to stay in the Federation.
Given that all the former-Yugo countries' EU accession prospects are looking up since the Thessaloniki EU council earlier this summer, I think MG is really better off now betting on the Federation.

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:51 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, this seems likely (if such a path were pursued), but montenegro seems to have less antipathy to serbia than either croatia or slovenia, so it'll be interesting to see. is there any serious grassroots desire for autonomy there? is under-reported

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:51 (twenty-two years ago)

is curious, as a state separate to serbia i thought international community would be warmer towards secession than regions part of serbia (kosovo or vojvodina), whose secession the international community would be strongly opposed to

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the name translates as Black Mountain which hardly gives clues to its size.

The only thing they've been defeated in lately is football. Nice free kick from young Joey.

― Kissin' Kate, Friday, 1 August 2003 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Azerbaijan beat them more convincingly tho...

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 1 August 2003 08:57 (twenty-two years ago)

yep, the black mountain. Cernahora in serbian. I think it's got a population of 1 M or something.

gareth - well after the fiasco of the break-up in 91-92, the unofficial rule has basically been to oppose as much as possible the emergence of any new State in that part of Europe. Not to encourage the other provinces and ethnic communities in Macedonia, Serbia, to start claiming autonomy.

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Friday, 1 August 2003 09:06 (twenty-two years ago)

There's a book written by an Irish travel writer called Dervla Murphy which is a decent snapshot of the break up (of Yugoslavia). Unfortunately her anti-Nato agenda overshadows the more descriptive passages and makes it sound like a rant in places.

― Kissin'Kate, Friday, 1 August 2003 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

and there's the classic 'Balkan Ghosts', Robert Kaplan's travelogue in the Balkans in the late 80s

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Friday, 1 August 2003 09:29 (twenty-two years ago)

crna gora. i think the montenegrins and serbs have always seemed much more closely related by religious ties and a shared sense of fraternity than the other south slavs, so secession from the federation is maybe not such a burning issue for the montenegrins. to be honest i'm not really up on the current situation there tho'.

― cameron, Friday, 1 August 2003 09:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Then why bother posting?

― Kissin' Kate, Friday, 1 August 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

to venture what little i do know and maybe learn something in response . that's all.

― cameron, Friday, 1 August 2003 09:50 (twenty-two years ago)

yea, i'd definitely felt there was some sort of fraternal ties between serbia and montenegro that wasnt present with other south slavs, and thats the main reason i was curious as to whether there was going to be a secession or not, as serbia is by far the dominant partner of the 2

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 1 August 2003 09:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, the two share the same religion (orthodux) and alphabets, so they are definitely closer than the other Southern Slavs.
Teh autonomist upsurge really occured when a lot of Montenegrins started feeling they would be better off politically and economically on their onw (ie. before the fall of Milosevic). Since then, with the democratisation/reform process happening in Serbia, the issue has probably lost of its significance

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Friday, 1 August 2003 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Montenegro was never part of Serbia, and so cannot secede from it.

they were both part of Yugoslavia, but that state no longer exists. the two countries are now grouped in some kind of cumbersome entity which might in some ways be analagous to the european community or something.

I think Montenegro will eventually secede from that, and it might well be a good thing if they did so.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 1 August 2003 11:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Montenegrans would like to cut loose from serbia because they have their economic house in order to a greater extent, and would rather not suffer from the internal vicissitudes of their rowdy neighbours.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 1 August 2003 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

thats what i mean dv, that it isnt a region within a la kosovo or vojvodina, but a separate nation in this strange CIS like state-nation husk. the question is, will it secede from "serbia&montenegro", or, if you like, belgradian hegemony

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 1 August 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

well, I reckon Montenegro will slip out of the union as soon as the international community isn't looking. my impression is very much that they have been leaned on to keep this lopsided montenegro-serbia entity together because the internationals get worried when countries break up. In practice they are two seperate countries with only the most notional thread uniting them. I mean, they have the Euro in Montenegro, for fuck's sake, while they're still using inflatatrons in Serbia.

by the way, I tried to interest my pal who actually knows about the Western Balkans to this thread, but he does this kind of thing for a living and isn't going to post here for fun.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 1 August 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article549795.ece

I don't see this being discussed anywhere else, so what are your thoughts on Montenegro's apparent vote for independence? Looks like most people foresaw this happening a few years ago. I wouldn't pretend to know the factors influencing people's decisions to vote for independence, but I'd imagine that desire to enter into the EU was a major one. As someone pointed out above, they use the Euro, where Serbian still uses the dinar, and has to deal with messy political issues blocking its entry.

― whenuweremine (whenuweremine), Sunday, 21 May 2006 23:21 (nineteen years ago)

This is bad news. Montenegro has 350 000 inhabitants. I think we've seen the problems of having micro-states proliferating in Europe.

― Baaderonixx rides the neon lights (baaderonixx), Monday, 22 May 2006 06:55 (nineteen years ago)

Apparently there would still be eight European nations smaller than Montenegro. Not that this makes it any better, but it's good to keep perspective.

― whenuweremine (whenuweremine), Monday, 22 May 2006 07:12 (nineteen years ago)

I thought Montenegro had double that amount, anyway.

― edward o (edwardo), Monday, 22 May 2006 07:16 (nineteen years ago)

That Serbia-Montenegro union thing was profoundly dysfunctional. They should either have properly merged the two countries or let them seperate. Oh wait they did! winner.

Montenegro has around a million people.

But Baaderonix is right - there are some really fucked up European micro states. Like Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Andorra, & Monacco. Man, those guys really have it tough.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 22 May 2006 12:19 (nineteen years ago)

I want one of those red DA t-shirts

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 22 May 2006 12:25 (nineteen years ago)

Well I wasn't saying that these guys had it tough. Quite the opposite, but the trend of the last 15 years whereby east european regions see their prospects for improvement exclusively in terms of gaining independence is a bit destructive in the long run. At a time where sovereignty is becoming increasingly irrelevant, the costs of maintaining the symbols thereof are a bit disproportionate. The usual argument that Montenegro will now have a better prospect of joining the EU is a bit meh, as small maverick states are not really what the EU needs right now.
All this is maybe patronizing, being French I guess I'm not in a position to talk about which national movements are good or bad, butfrom a rational point of view, I find it sad.

― Baaderonixx rides the neon lights (baaderonixx), Monday, 22 May 2006 12:46 (nineteen years ago)

I reckon in this case, Montenegro alone will join the EU far sooner than if it was shackled to the corpse of Serbia. But time will tell.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 22 May 2006 12:57 (nineteen years ago)

Serbia loses its Adriatic sea access through this split, something I would have thought really important to them.

I hope Montenegro doesn't go for tourism or bust. Places like Kotor and Budva are lovely as they are. Crap capital, mind.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 22 May 2006 13:26 (nineteen years ago)

Kotor & Budva should be saved from tourists, and kept as sites for discerning travellers.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

four years pass...

thinking of going there on summer hols for a week - any recommendations?

― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Thursday, 24 March 2011 09:40 (fourteen years ago)

one year passes...

anyone been recently? got any holiday tips?

― jabba hands, Monday, 20 August 2012 15:18 (thirteen years ago)

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