More 9/11 links — and a query

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I have a bunch of stuff come through on email — some interesting, some very extremely dotty — that I'd like over the next few days to put up on a page or pages (ie which can gradually be added to). Any suggestions how to do this (I am web-page illiterate as of this second)? Some of them are long and just posting them means ppl don;t really read them (I mean, I don't). Also some are very aggressive and/or nutty and I think I owe ILE at least a blue-link mark s-type warning.

mark s, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

These piece are all from The Nation over the last ten days. Not particularly cuz I agree with em all — frankly I doubt they all agree with each other — but because I get sent em, and the least I can do is pass em on.

JONATHAN SCHELL: A Hole In The World
DAVID CORN: The Dark Smoke
ROBERT FISK:
PATRICIA WILLIAMS: Pax Americana
NATION EDITORS: A Great Wound
AHMED RASHID: Pakistan, the Taliban and the United States
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS: Against Rationalizations
DILIP HIRO: Bush and bin Laden
ERIC FONER: The Most Patriotic Act
JONATHAN SCHELL: A Sense of Proportion
KATHA POLLITT: Put Out No Flags
ERIC ALTERMAN: The Uses of Adversity
RICHARD FALK: A Just Response
DAVID COLE: A Matter of Rights
NATION EDITORS: Justice, Not Vengeance
JOEL ROGERS The End of Innocence
NAOMI KLEIN: Game Over
TARIQ ALI: For a Political Solution

ARCHIVE PIECES:

March 25, 1978/by Aryeh Neier: Terror and the Sense of Justice
Dec 2, 1996/Richard J. Barnett: The Terrorism Trap
Sept 21, 1998/Robert Fisk Talks with Osama bin Laden
Feb 15, 1999/Dilip Hiro: The Cost of an Afghan 'Victory'
Aug 7, 2000/Patrick Smith: Manifest Duplicity...

mark s, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sorry, I deprived ROBERT FISK of HIS blue lines: Terror In America

(Also I used an m-dash in the thread title, which is why it keeps repeating in such ugly mien)

mark s, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

As before, Alexander Cockburn is at CounterPunch, which updates regularly.

mark s, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

mark, thanks for those links, we need to see some good shit (even the misfires) right now--I sure ain't getting it from cnn or most of my local papers (tho' there are bits and bobs of "deeper" reportage to be found). I always, for some reason, thought I distrusted Cockburn (for no reason at all that I can remember), but his counter-punch piece is entirely sensible. I'd also direct people, who haven't already noticed, to salon.com. Their coverage of this has been fantastic.

scott w, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mentioned Michael Moore before, but to say it again (he arrived back in NYC two days ago and yesterday's post was inspiring, harrowing and more) -- also Tom Tomorrow's been feverishly updating regularly at This Modern World.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I've been very pleased with the Nation's handling of this. It's always been my political magazine of choice, and it was good to see that their party line on this issue coincided pretty well with mine.

Katha Pollitt in particular ... I really cannot tell you how much I love Katha Pollitt.

Nitsuh, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

In contrast, the New Republic is sticking to the nuttily hyperbolic tone it adopted the first week of the attacks. (To think I once made an unsuccessful attempt to subscribe to it!) Peter Beinart says "Hatred for Israel? Bah! Nothing to do it!"; while the first sentence of Lawrence Kaplan's essay is "What do Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and Susan Sontag have in common?" (I dunno...facial hair problems?) There's also predictable (and, unless I'm missing something, theoretically inconsistent) railing against America's elites, with a weird-ass line about how the editorial writers at the NYT are "plotting strategy from the cheese line at Zabar's."

Michael Daddino, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm pretty ignorant abt this stuff so these links were v. interesting. I have always liked Christopher Hitchens, even though he's a lazy louche arrogant snob - in fact that's sort've part of the appeal, that dissolution and indifference, as well as the fact that he picked on Mother Teresa which I presume took some sort of courage. And the fact that he and his brother are like mirror images, or binary oppositions. Anyway, I thought this quote from the Hitchens link above was provocative, esp. in light of the Scopes Monkey trial going on in Momus' 'Afraid of America' thread: "[T]he bombers of Manhattan represent fascism with an Islamic face, and there's no point in any euphemism about it. What they abominate about "the West," to put it in a phrase, is not what Western liberals don't like and can't defend about their own system, but what they do like about it and must defend: its emancipated women, its scientific inquiry, its separation of religion from the state." Think Dave Q might agree with this - what abt the rest of you?

Andrew L, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, I liked that Hitchens line a LOT: but I can't yet work out what liking it commits me to, politically.

(DG or Tom: can you not smart-bomb these ugly repeated thread-headings — they offend my whimsical narcissism...)

mark s, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Pollitt's piece there was quite good, thanks for calling it to my attention Nitsuh...but there's something missing in it which is the one thing that I'm now starting to look for more openly in any of the (to my mind) sane commentary as opposed to the jingoism.

Namely this -- what is to be done? Bombing Afghanistan = sucks. But Pollitt says war in general sucks too, which I'm down with -- however, given that if bin Laden is the right person to be asking after all this, it's very very *very* unlikely he's going to give himself up. Sanctions won't apply here. Diplomatic pressure is very unlikely to work. Therefore, what to do? As long as the assumption is that *any* action on the part of the US will cause nothing but problems, then the corollary that needs to be lived with seems to be nobody will ever see him held to bear for his actions (and there are still the other things he's been previously indicted for -- the African embassy bombings, for instance).

Now if somebody could prove me wrong, please do. But right now I'm thinking that this could be the fatal flaw in the left's argument...

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I liked that Hitchens line a lot too. But the question is - is what we love and the terrorists hate about "The West" also what Bush is proposing to defend? The answer if you define the enemy as the terrorists responsible for September 11th is surely 'yes'. Or at least what Bush is defending *includes* what we love.

But if the 'war on terrorism' stops being about retaliation or even protection and starts being about repression, or replacing unfriendly oppressors with friendly ones, or about corporate interests or even personal interests (Bush Sr fought a war, enjoyed massive support, was not re-elected; Bush Jr will wish to avoid that fate) then the question of how what we love and what 'our leaders' love differs becomes once again key.

Tom, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I agree with Ned - analysis of what-is-to-be-done has been missing. Indeed we've been treated to the unedifying (on both sides) spectacle of leftist commentators falling back on realpolitik - it'll never work; it'll make things worse; do nothing - and rightist ones falling back on idealist fantasy - we can beat terrorism forever and ever and you'll all be safe in your beds again.

The reality is, though, that we weren't safe before the 11th and we won't be after it. Terrorism, and mass-terrorism, is a fact of political life - I think we will see other, and worse, September 11ths within our lifetime. But the chances of us not dying old and alseep haven't gone up because somebody destroyed the WTC - we've just been rudely awoken to the fact that they weren't as low as we thought.

So the qn is - what do we do to keep the number of 9/11s to a minimum in future and limit their impact when they do happen? And part of this I think *is* military retaliation, using targeted force not massive force, and I'm immensely glad that the Powellite tendency seems - if we can believe reports - to realise this.

(Other stuff I think should be done - more investment in and co- operation between national intelligence agencies; more investment in proactive, rather than reactive, overseas aid (a kind of 'soft globalisation' understanding that reducing poverty, tyranny and conflict overseas is an investment in our own domestic security); increased education of the domestic population in civil defense, including staged evacuations - mass fire alarms and drills so the maximum number of civilian lives can be saved in mass-terrorism events in future; oh, and the establishment of that pesky International Court thing the US blocked earlier this year)

Tom, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It might also help if the American mass media will start operating as if the welfare of far-away countries not part of Epcot's World Showcase actually kinda does matter, both in a self- interested sense (Tom's "soft globalisation") and in a moral sense (these people are like us in some way, and hence their suffering is not acceptable).

In related news, Jesse Helms more-or-less said today that Russia and China were of no help to us, prompting me to thank the Lord that this shrivelled isolationist cocksucker will soon be abandoned to the dustheap of history.

Michael Daddino, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

*just to reiterate my QUERY which no one has answered: I also have a buncha stuff which is NOT YET ON THE WEB, at least if it is I don't know where, and I wd like to put some of it on a page [or more likely pages] and blue link it to here - but I have no website or webpage to put it on... does anyone have a suggestion?

Or is perhaps now the time to start my mark s polblog (as if I haven't got enuff projects promised)?

mark s, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

To Mark S -- have you gotten any webspace anywhere yet? The blog might well be a very good idea.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mickey Kaus in Slate addresses some of the editorials which have been downplaying Arab resentment of Israel as a motivation for the terrorist attacks, and concludes (rightly, I think) that we're gonna have to make stronger demands on Israel (and the PLO) than we have before if we really want to combat terrorism.

Michael Daddino, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Also on Slate: Peter Maass on the totally sick rumor that Israel was behind the WTC attacks. Snopes also addresses this.

Michael Daddino, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Shit.

Tom will certainly enjoy this story about wargame simulations the US has been using lately:

"Much of the enthusiasm for EBO in the U.S. military is based upon technological advances in communications distribution, data-mining tools, graphical display, and social/demographic modeling tools similar to those used in advertising, marketing and political campaigns."

Michael Daddino, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This elaborates on many of the ideas in this and other threads, particularly Tom's and Michael's:

(1) Local disputes can blow up internationally, and so it is the business of the "international community" (let's pretend there could be such a thing) - not to mention of the U.S. - that such disputes get resolved, and by "resolved" I don't mean "settled temporarily in a way that leaves us with governments favorable to U.S. interests" or even "settled in a way that leaves states that make me, as a secular democrat, feel comfortable" or even "settled in a way that seems fair to me," but rather "settled in a way that makes the vast majority of the disputants more interested in building the prosperity of their country and their region than in continuing the dispute."

(2) HUGE subtext: What if those planes had carried nuclear bombs or anthrax spores in their baggage holds?

(3) Since 1945, we've been living with the possibility of worldwide chaos, the end of civilization as we know it, the possible end of all land-based life forms on Earth. International law and some form of world government - or world something - cannot be put off indefinitely. The U.S. has simply got to be willing to participate in international law, even though some of the results will be unfair by U.S. lights, or by Israel's lights, or by my lights, for that matter.

Frank Kogan, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

My brother got a sound bite on NPR the other day:

HEATHER SZERLAG: But just as some Democrats are giving way on capital gains, much of the Bush administration's free-market dogma also seems to be going out the window. Government intervention is now the order of the day as the White House works to bail out airlines, prop up financial markets, and coordinate rate cuts and monetary policy with the European Union. Richard Kogan, an economist at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, says the parties' compromises on key ideological points are not likely to be permanent. But Kogan says the White House may be seriously rethinking at least one notion: the idea that anything the government does, the private sector can do better.

MR. RICHARD KOGAN (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities): Airline security was done by the private sector and it was done in a typical private-sector way, which is to say as cheaply as possible.

SZERLAG: Airport security lapses capitalized on by the hijackers may have been enough to shake the GOP's confidence in that article of the free-market faith. In Washington, I'm Heather Szerlag for MARKETPLACE.

Richard was also interviewed for CNN, but I don't know if they ran the clip.

Frank Kogan, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

And if you're interested, here's the Website for the group my brother works for.

Frank Kogan, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That Hitchens article, and that line, echo an increasing irritation I feel with much leftist analysis of 11/9. Commentators many of whom I respect,eg John Lloyd, locate and explain the attacks within the framework of their own critique of capitalism/globalization/unease at western policy. My instinctive response was the same, but the more I read about Islamic 'fundamentalism', about Algeria, Wahibism etc the less this holds. Then I came across this quote in Walter Laqueur's prescient 'The New Terrorism' which I thought worth sharing:

“During the 1960s and 1970s, when most terrorism was vaguely left wing in inspiration, arguments were made that terrorism was a response to injustice. Hence, if there were more political, social, and economic justice, terrorism would more ore less automatically vanish. Seen in this light, terrorists were fanatical believers in justice driven to despair by intolerable conditions. But in the 1980s and ‘90s, when most terrorism in Europe and America came from the extreme right and the victims wer foreigners, national minorities, or even arbitrarily chosen, those who had previously shown understanding or ven approval of terrorism no longer used thesed these arguments. They could no longer possibly explain, let alone justify, murder with reference to political, social, or economic justice.”

stevo, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

A few more links

ABC interview with Bin Ladin

One Man's Private Jihad

New Statesmen editorial

Dozens of links on ZNet

stevo, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Not directly related to 9/11 but a fascinating insight into the jihad mentality of Islamic radicals at war with Russia in Chechnya

Jihad in Chechnya

stevo, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

V much recommended as a look into the cult-mentality of terrorists (several of the hijackers, remember, were not especially religious - they drank, socialised, one lived with his girlfriend unmarried) is Murakami's Underground, about the Tokyo subway gas attack. Chilling stuff for people wanting to believe that extremist mentalities are always absolutely alien.

Tom, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nine months pass...
Afghanistan News

., Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ten years pass...

I put this on a Wolfowitz thread, but maybe it should go here

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/the-bush-white-house-was-deaf-to-9-11-warnings.html?_r=1&hp

CIA vs. Wolfie and friends at the Pentagon in 2001

The direct warnings to Mr. Bush about the possibility of a Qaeda attack began in the spring of 2001. By May 1, the Central Intelligence Agency told the White House of a report that “a group presently in the United States” was planning a terrorist operation. Weeks later, on June 22, the daily brief reported that Qaeda strikes could be “imminent,” although intelligence suggested the time frame was flexible.
But some in the administration considered the warning to be just bluster. An intelligence official and a member of the Bush administration both told me in interviews that the neoconservative leaders who had recently assumed power at the Pentagon were warning the White House that the C.I.A. had been fooled; according to this theory, Bin Laden was merely pretending to be planning an attack to distract the administration from Saddam Hussein, whom the neoconservatives saw as a greater threat. Intelligence officials, these sources said, protested that the idea of Bin Laden, an Islamic fundamentalist, conspiring with Mr. Hussein, an Iraqi secularist, was ridiculous, but the neoconservatives’ suspicions were nevertheless carrying the day.

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 16:16 (thirteen years ago)

These fears triggered a surge in counterterrorism spending. Mueller and Stewart estimated that the response to 9/11 by federal, state and local governments as well as private corporations has totaled $1 trillion. The costs include measures such as beefed up intelligence, hardening of facilities and more robust airport screening but exclude the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Even granting that terrorism evokes powerful emotions and hence deserves more attention than other dangers, Mueller and Stewart contended, “a great deal of money appears to have been misspent and would have been far more productive—saved far more lives—if it had been expended in other ways.”

Mueller and Stewart noted that, in general, government regulators around the world view fatality risks—say, from nuclear power, industrial toxins or commercial aviation—above one person per million per year as “acceptable.” Between 1970 and 2007, Mueller and Stewart asserted in a separate paper published in Foreign Affairs, a total of 3,292 Americans (not counting those in war zones) were killed by terrorists, resulting in an annual risk of one in 3.5 million. Americans were more likely to die in an accident involving a bathtub (one in 950,000), a home appliance (one in 1.5 million), a deer (one in two million) or on a commercial airliner (one in 2.9 million).

The global mortality rate of death by terrorism is even lower. Worldwide, terrorism killed 13,971 people between 1975 and 2003, an annual rate of one in 12.5 million. Since 9/11 acts of terrorism carried out by Muslim militants outside of war zones have killed about 300 people per year worldwide. This tally includes attacks not only by al Qaeda but also by “imitators, enthusiasts, look-alikes and wannabes,” according to Mueller and Stewart.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2012/09/10/did-the-u-s-overreact-to-the-911-attacks/

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 16:20 (thirteen years ago)

The risk of death by cancer is 23,000 times greater than dying from a US terrorist attack.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 16:23 (thirteen years ago)

xchuxk put this on facebook today and i had totally forgotten about it. ugh. oof. made my stomach hurt remembering everything. i don't think about that time a lot. anyway, music-writer types quoted. chuck, and mark s. and me and others.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2001-09-18/music/talking-world-war-iii-blues/

scott seward, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 16:28 (thirteen years ago)

its not like a political thing or anything...

scott seward, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 16:28 (thirteen years ago)


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