"Mel Gibson is the Michelangelo of this generation"

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For those not registered for the NYTimes I'm posting the article that the thread title came from.

I've seen a number of articles about this already and was wondering what ppl thought. I believe Gibson to be a bigoted asshole but still, could the film really be that inflammatory? I find that hard to believe. Any thoughts or scoop?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/02/national/02GIBS.html?
pagewanted=all&position=
Months Before Debut, Movie on Death of Jesus Causes Stir
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

With his movie about the death of Jesus under attack as anti-Semitic, Mel Gibson is trying to build an audience and a defense for his project by screening it for evangelical Christians, conservative Catholics, right-wing pundits, Republicans, a few Jewish commentators and Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Mr. Gibson has poured $25 million of his money into the movie, "The Passion," calling it the most authentic and biblically accurate film about Jesus' death.

Now, seven months before its scheduled release on Ash Wednesday, the film has set off an uproar that both sides warn could undermine years of bridge building between Christians and Jews. The selected audiences who have seen the film defend it as the most moving, reverential — and violent — depiction of Jesus' suffering and death ever put on screen. Detractors, who have read a script but not seen the film, say it is a modern version of the medieval Passion plays that portrayed Jews as "Christ killers" and stoked anti-Jewish violence.

The dialogue is in Aramaic and Latin. Scholars say that belies the assertion of total authenticity, because the Romans spoke Greek. Mr. Gibson had said the film would not have English subtitles. But it is being screened with them, the marketing director, Paul Lauer, said, and they may remain. "The Passion" has no distributor. Mr. Lauer said "two major studios" were interested or Mr. Gibson might distribute it himself.

The controversy has been cast by many of his supporters as the Jews versus Mel Gibson. But it began when several Roman Catholic scholars voiced concern about the project because of Mr. Gibson's affiliation with a splinter Catholic group that rejects the modern papacy and the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which in 1965 repudiated the charge of deicide against the Jews.

Mr. Gibson has been screening "The Passion" for a few weeks for friendly audiences, but has refused to show it to his critics, including members of Jewish groups and biblical scholars. In Washington, it was shown to the Web gossip Matt Drudge, the columnists Cal Thomas and Peggy Noonan and the staffs of the Senate Republican Conference and the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and others. In Colorado Springs, the capital of evangelical America, the film drew raves. A convention of the Legionaries of Christ, a conservative Roman Catholic order of priests, saw a preview, as did Rush Limbaugh.

Audiences wept, and many were awestruck.

"Mel Gibson is the Michelangelo of this generation," said the Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of Evangelicals.

"It's going to be a classic," said Deal W. Hudson, publisher of Crisis, a conservative Catholic magazine. "It's going to be the go-to film for Christians of all denominations who want to see the best movie made about the Passion of Christ."

Mr. Gibson has said his movie will be true to the Gospel account of the last hours of Jesus' life. But Matthew, Mark, Luke and John differ greatly, presenting Rashomon-like accounts of the roles of the Romans and Jews in the Crucifixion.

A committee of Bible scholars who read a version of the script said that it was not true to Scripture or Catholic teaching and that it badly twisted Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death. The problem, the scholars said, is not that Mr. Gibson is anti-Semitic, but that his film could unintentionally incite anti-Semitic violence.

One scholar, Sister Mary C. Boys, a professor at Union Theological Seminary in New York, said: "When we read the screenplay, our sense was this wasn't really something you could fix. All the way through, the Jews are portrayed as bloodthirsty. We're really concerned that this could be one of the great crises in Christian-Jewish relations."

Mr. Gibson, who directed and was a co-author of the script, is vehement that any criticism is based on an outdated script that was stolen. He declined an interview, and his company, Icon Productions, said it was showing the movie just to selected journalists and critics.

Mr. Gibson said in a statement: "Anti-Semitism is not only contrary to my personal beliefs; it is also contrary to the core message of my movie. `The Passion' is a film meant to inspire, not offend."

The furor began in March, when the committee of scholars, five Catholics and four Jews, asked Icon Productions to show them the script. Five scholars hold endowed chairs at their universities, and all have long been engaged in interfaith dialogue. The group was assembled by officials of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith.

Those organizations were wary, because they had spent years drafting guidelines for ridding Passion plays of anti-Semitism. Some of the same scholars had consulted on the overhaul of the most famous Passion play, at Oberammergau, Germany.

The scholars say the other reason for concern was Mr. Gibson's strain of Catholicism. He built and belongs to a church in Los Angeles that is part of a growing but fractured movement known as "Catholic traditionalism." Considered beyond the pale even by conservatives, the traditionalists reject the Second Vatican Council and every pope since then, and they conduct Mass in Latin.

Mr. Gibson also set off alarms among the scholars when reports quoted him as saying his script had drawn on the diaries of Sister Anne Catherine Emmerich, a 19th-century mystic whose visions included extrabiblical details like having the Jewish high priest order that Jesus' cross be built in the Jewish temple.

Icon did not respond to the request to see the script. But someone leaked a copy to one of the scholars, the Rev. John T. Pawlikowski, a professor of social ethics and the director of the Catholic-Jewish Studies program at the Catholic Theological Union. Father Pawlikowski said in an interview that the script came from a friend who got it from another person whom he did not know.

The scholars sent a report to Icon complaining about the script, again receiving no response. After excerpts of the report appeared in the news media — both sides say the other leaked it — the scholars circulated their complaints.

"This was one of the worst things we had seen in describing responsibility for the death of Christ in many many years," Father Pawlikowski said.

In particular, the scholars objected that the Jewish priest, Caiaphas, was depicted as intimidating Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, into going along with the Crucifixion. Several people who saw the film last month said the version they saw had that portrayal. The scholars said that section distorts the fact that the Romans were the occupying power and that the Jewish authorities were their agents.

Mr. Lauer, marketing director for Icon, said Mr. Gibson's rendering was not anti-Semitic, but simply followed the New Testament. "There are some sympathetic to Christ and some who clearly want to get rid of this guy," he said. "And that's clearly scriptural. You can't get away from the fact that there are some Jews who wanted this guy dead."

The script that the scholars read was dated October 2002, when, Mr. Lauer acknowledged, filming began. But scripts often change after shooting starts, he added.

Icon threatened to sue the scholars and the bishops' conference. The bishops soon apologized and said it had neither authorized the scholars' panel nor the report.

Mr. Gibson has sought to mend fences with the bishops. He met recently in Washington with officials of the conference and has shown the film to Cardinals Anthony Bevilacqua of Philadelphia and Francis George of Chicago, as well as Archbishop Charles J. Chaput of Denver.

But the scholars and the Anti-Defamation League have not backed down. They are pressing Mr. Gibson to show them the rough cut that he has been screening.

The national director of the Anti-Defamation League, Abraham H. Foxman, said, "If you say this is not anti-Semitic and this is a work of love and reconciliation, why are you afraid to show it to us?"

"There is no way on God's green earth," Mr. Lauer said, "that any of those people will be invited to a screening. They have shown themselves to be dishonorable."

People who have seen the movie say it is brutally graphic, dwelling at length on a scourging scene that renders Jesus a bloody piece of flesh before he is even nailed to the Cross. He is beaten with a leather strap studded with metal points that, when slapped across a tabletop, stick in the wood like spikes.

Roman soldiers administer the beating in the film, Mr. Hudson, the Catholic publisher, said. "By the time the Romans get through with him," Mr. Hudson said, "you've forgotten what the Jews might have done."

Mr. Gibson's vision "pays tribute to Judaism," Mr. Lauer said, by underscoring Christianity's roots. The controversy, he added, has built a considerable buzz about the movie. "You can't buy that kind of publicity," he said.

H (Heruy), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

http://members.optushome.com.au/margorach/pic/michaelangelo.jpg

Prude (Prude), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmmm... Who does Mel Gibson think he is? Signs was bad enough, but this sounds awful.

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex K (Alex K), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"The Romans didn't kill Christ, WE did! Of course we did! Because he wouldn't go to med school!" - Lenny Bruce

dave q, Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)

what happens in this film? does Jesus get struck by lightning and, somehow, suddenly have the ability to hear women's thoughts? I might go and see it.


seriously, though, I think it must be the height [exaggerating] of blasphemy to/to want to make a movie about Jesus and stuff and also to/to want to go to see a movie about Jesus and stuff. real christians should boycott this film. please. as well as the jews and the rest.

RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i am sick of people assuming that mel gibson is catholic, when he is part of a schismatic and heretical sext who refutes the vital progress of the church.

that said the cast looks really good, which has something to recommend it.

anthony easton (anthony), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you mean they can act or they are hott?

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

what's the difference again?

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I was hoping Mel would have some amusing anecdotes about his stupid stepfather.

Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

haha God bless the liberal northeast media: "presenting Rashomon-like accounts"

g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Why did anyone post anything after Prude's post?

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Unfortunately this article has it all wrong...Patrick Swayze is clearly the Michelangelo of this generation.

Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

He's like the wind through my dreams.

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

sure is.

Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"We're really concerned that this could be one of the great crises in Christian-Jewish relations."

This sentence is so stupid I can barely get my head around it to formulate a response.

bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"But, Homer, you LIKED Rashomon!"

"That ain't the way I remember it!"

also, i think it'd be cool if they had seens with Jesus hallucinating and talking to a big scary nu-metal rabbit that showed him the future.

Kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

But is Matos the Mel Gibson of our generation? Can he play a convincing psychotic crony of an enforcement agent?

donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Millar can be Danny Glover!

Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Who is Joe Pesci? Ned?

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I mentioned that the book I'm finishing up the revision of is a fictionalized biography of Jesus; what frustrated me was how difficult it is to write the thing accurately without writing things that can sound anti-Semitic out of their proper context. Sure, Jews killed Jesus. Jews gave him dinner, too. Jews did a lot of stuff, what with there being a lot of them in Judaea at the time.

This, though:

In particular, the scholars objected that the Jewish priest, Caiaphas, was depicted as intimidating Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, into going along with the Crucifixion.

is utter crap. Aside from what the article points out -- Caiaphas would not be in any position to intimidate Pilate, and if he had been, he would've used that position to stop the tax that funded Pilate's aqueduct, a tax that inspired several violent uprisings -- Pilate probably never even heard Jesus's name until the man was already dead. He was as likely to be involved in the whole thing as a state governor is to be involved in the prosecution of an armed robbery.

(Of course, Caiaphas possibly had nothing to do with it either.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I am disappointed that the thread has gone this far without anyone acknowledging that Sister Mary C. Boys is the greatest nun name ever.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

We did this: Mel Gibson's passion play

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Aside from everything mentioned above not being talked about there, yes.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Grrrrrrrr I just wanted to note the other thread, in case people were interested. I'm not suggesting this thread is useless!

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyhow did anyone else pick up on the creepiness quote in that whole article:

"There is no way on God's green earth," Mr. Lauer said, "that any of those people will be invited to a screening. They have shown themselves to be dishonorable."

What does THAT mean?

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Then we didn't do this, we did that! Sorry, I'm ultra-tired today.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, I find the ADL dishonorable, but probably not for the same reasons as Mr. Lauer. And the whole Cast-Thee-Down tone of that quote reminds me that for Gibson et al this really ISN'T just an aristic project, it's a religious mission.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, the combination of religious intent and religious scholarship often leads to ... wonkiness, especially in hands like these. I think the movie will probably be entertaining, but thinking about it makes me cringe, too. Spider-Sense is tingling.

Dammit, Verhoeven, get off your ass.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

here's the IMDB link to it

fer extra laughs, check out the message board section at the bottom of the page.

Kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

[[preparing lawsuit]]

M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

id rather have a movie about the Master and Margarita version of the passion, far more interesting than that bible thing.

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah" = Christians

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

theres only one movie about big j, baby.
http://www.mclink.it/personal/ME5873/pasqua/images/jcs.jpg

chaki (chaki), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah" = Christians

There are often substantial differences (Jews don't require that the Messiah be the Son of God, which is pretty much Jesus's defining characteristic in Christianity), but it is an odd subset, and a strange choice of test audiences.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't pay attention to the rest of this thread bcz the Matos + me buddy cop flick concept is too fucking ridiculous. Actually I think we should be INS agents.

Millar (Millar), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I know I was being a little goofy there, but something about Jews-for-Jesus-type-movements always strikes me as disingenuous.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, it's ... I don't know. I have to remind myself that it's more complicated than it looks at first -- for so many people, "Jewish" is as much, if not more, an ethnic identification than a religious one. Converting to Christianity wouldn't really change that ethnic identity or make it less important (and joining a Jews-for-Jesus movement is in most cases at least a halfway conversion).

On the other hand, most of the first two generations of "Christians" were "Jews who dig Jesus," so I dunno. I'm making a mental note now to find out more about the movements at some point, cause there was some stuff in Reform Judaism early on which was very Jesus-friendly, and I wonder if it grew out of that.

(And then at the other end of the scale, there's the whole wacky trend in the Southwest states of deciding you're Jewish because of the number of "secret Jews" who moved to the Spanish colonies and abandoned their old cultural traditions.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Marranos!

Although I'm not sure about the ethnic identity bit, though it is probably true for a lot of people. In the US at least Jewishness is identified with a very particular East European Ashkenazi heritage, but the larger constellation of Jewish identity does incorporate North African/Spanish Sephardim, Yemenites etc. Common among these groups is belief and practice, not ethnicity.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Marranos, that's it. The most interesting day of my Spanish Colonialism class was my professor's inability -- as a Spanish Jew -- to conceal her overwhelming discomfort with that whole thing.

The concept of Jewish ethnic identity ... well, hell, we could fill a thread with that, and I'm far from an expert. Belief and practice are common in the background of all those groups, but there are so many, many Jews who don't practice, and still self-identify as Jewish. It's not ethnic in the same sense as "Italian" or "Irish," though, yeah, but I'm not sure what word would be better to make that distinction.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

No, you're right, Tep. I was just making the distinction that while many North Americans identify as Jewish, and base that on culture rather than practice, it's not ubiquituous among Jewry.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh heh. "Jewry" is what my grandmother used to put on her ears and around her neck when she was dressing up for a special event.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah yeah, okay. Aside from the very beginnings of the Reform movements in Germany, I know basically nothing about post-Temple Jews outside of the US,

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh heh. "Jewry" is what my grandmother used to put on her ears and around her neck when she was dressing up for a special event.

Was your grandmother married to a fellow named Mengele perhaps?

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

that was COLD

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

No, Louis.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I note that no one answered my question about Joe Pesci.

I'd also like to point out that the best Jesus movie is that one that had Christian Bale in it:

http://www.lakinreps.com/photographers/unit/endreny/images/02_endreny.jpg

I've never seen it and this is the only item that comes up on a search for "Christian Bale Jesus" so I'm hoping those are all stills from Mary, Mother of God!

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, seriously, Mel Gibson is not as hot as Christian Bale, he should just give up already. He's no Jesus.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

The best part of that is where everyone keeps mistaking Jesus for Peter, Paul, Matthew, and the other disciples, and then he kills Mary Magdalene while calmly explaining why "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" is the best hymn ever.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Who plays Judas? Matt Damon? Obviously Kim Basinger is the Virgin Mary, I mean duh.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok.

Virgin Mary: Johnny Depp

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Also I want it narrated by Ringo Starr, and Charleton Heston should be in it somehow.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

id like to see an emilio estevez cameo

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Charlton Heston is John the Baptist, who you have somehow left out without my noticing the first time.

Johnny Depp as the Virgin Mary? Sure, he'll have to wear slightly less eye makeup than in Pirates.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

And in the Baptist bits, Herod Antipas is played by Nick Nolte, and Salome by Nu Mandy Moore.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Emilio Estevez can go fuck himself in the ear.

OK well who do you suggest Johnny Depp play? The Virgin Mary should be Madonna anyway, why didn't I think of that a minute ago.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I agreed with the Virgin Depp!

Oh, Madonna. All right, yeah. Madonna as the Virgin Mary. Depp can play Thomas. Or Lazarus, all fucked up from getting his resurrection on.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Lazarus! Nice!

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...
Apparently the trailer for Passion is out. I haven't seen it, but despite the claims that a lot of historical research went into this movie, yadda yadda, they crucify Jesus by hammering nails through the palms. (It isn't possible to crucify someone that way. You'll just fuck up their hands, and then they'll fall off the fucking cross. Even to the extent that there's debate surrounding the specifics of crucifixion, this is not only fundamental, it's one of the first thing's Gibson's crack research team would've learned if they'd opened their books.)

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"No, Mel Gibson is a casino's big lemon"

RJG (RJG), Sunday, 28 September 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

b-b-but wasn't goya a scrupulous historical researcher?

amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i think the palm/wrist thing was a deliberate choice Tep, not an uninformed blunder - i know the researchers used the Journal of the American Medical Association article "On The Physical Death Of Jesus Christ" as source material for the scourging scenes, and the same article makes a very detailed case for the wrist-as-probable-nail-site. (it also proposes that the wrist was at the time considered "part of the hand", hence scripture's apparent confusion on the matter)

the trailer shows Christ's palms nailed and wrists BOUND (more common in persian crucifixions, while "nailing apparently was preferred by the Romans" according to the JAMA article) - it's probably safe to assume that gibson & co settled on the combination as a compromise between medical accuracy and literal interpretation.

jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't want to see any film set in a time that the wrist was considered "part of the hand."

RJG (RJG), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Talk to the wrist, cause the face is etc.

Maybe that's what they did. It's still part of his odd pattern of attempts to be historical (filming in "authentic languages," without subtitles) turning out to be awkward failures (ecclesiastical Latin, terrible Aramaic, the wrist thing ...)

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

(The ecclesiastical Latin thing ... imagine a director making a big deal out of his Revolutionary War movie being painstakingly authentic, filmed in "English as she was spoken at the time," and then going to see it and hearing everyone talk like flappers and bootleggers from the 1920s. That's how out of place ecclesiastical Latin is. It's not like turn-of-the-zero Latin is some big mystery or anything.)

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

imagine a director making a big deal out of his Revolutionary War movie being painstakingly authentic, filmed in "English as she was spoken at the time," and then going to see it and hearing everyone talk like flappers and bootleggers from the 1920s

ohmigod this sounds awesome

amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"you's not a tory is you mac? cos we got a place for tories, and it's six feet below the ground, if you get me, mac."

amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

We treated the British to a little chin music, see?

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

That's the Mickey Spillane version.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, if it were deliberate :)

(I'm actually all for using anachronistic English in period movies, just because everyone always does. How is having Washington talk like Capone somehow more anachronistic than having him talk like Generic British Guy on American Television? It isn't. It's just differently anachronistic.)

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i wish there were more "the accents are awful in this film" picket lines

jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

then "robin hood: prince of thieves" would have been the occasion for a mass strike.

amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

What was that Harrison Ford movie where Brad Pitt did the terrible Irish accent? They would have torn him apart in the streets!

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

that was "star wars"

amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Find it on this here thread:

Oscar Time:Most Ridiculous Fake Accent in a Movie

(The Devil's Own)

ailsa (ailsa), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

HUZZAH, I AM ROBIN HOOD! ASK ME ABOUT MY MISTLETOE!

http://www.geocities.com/puckrobin/rh/kevincost.jpg

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Anybody else agree with me that "The Postman" was more entertaining than "Braveheart?"

Mel Gibson can eat shit and die, by the way.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

ggggggrrrggggggooooogggg

Mel Gibson (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Gibson, if I'm gonna watch you stand on a mountain while YOUR camera pans around you in a widescreen stylee, you might as well give me a ludicrous post-apocalyptic fantasyworld to go with it. Your messianic trip is NOWHERE as imaginative as Costner's! Eat shit and die!

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

David Brin's crabbiness vs. Mel Gibson's crabbiness FITE.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

If Mel Gibson's movie had included Tom Petty as Tom Petty (and had been otherwise unchanged), it would have been the most awesomest movie that was ever awesomed. But it didn't.

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

not only Tom Petty as Tom Petty but Tom Petty as TOM PETTY, MAYOR OF THE POST-APOCALYPTIC OCEAN CITY!!! I want my bad movies inspired by crack, not by hate.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i just got tep's "terrible aramaic" joke

jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

someone said upthread that the roman's spoke greek,could someone elaborate?
is it that greek was the language of the courts?
where did latin come in to play?
and what is the terrible aramaic joke?

robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

also has anyone seen ads for that time magazine straight to video version of the bible,with fuckloads of big name actors in it?

robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

woah! no! which big name actors? Hardcore Christian actors are just as baffling as Scientologist ones, personally.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, in order to separate them from normal Christians, I hereby coin the term "Christcore."

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

well dennis hopper is the one that seemed most odd
i'll have a look and see if i can find out who else was in it

robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i can't find any mention of it,i know i didn't imagine it though,cause i saw the ad in a friends house and we were all amazed at the list of really famous actors in it

robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't make a terrible Aramaic joke! At least not on purpose.

Language stuff -- Latin would have been spoken in Rome itself (alongside Greek), but the world is still essentially Hellenic at this point, not Romanized. Greek is the trade language and the language common to the Roman Empire's holdings; Rome might control the world, but it was Greece that went out, found it, built cities there, and drew Rome a map to show them the way to get there.

In Palestine -- where the Passion and any other non-kooky Jesus stories take place -- the three main languages would be Aramaic (a descendent of Hebrew and other Semitic languages), Greek (*), and Biblical Hebrew, which was used for liturgical services in synagogues and the Temple, but was probably not understood by many people (much like the Latin mass and liturgy in Catholic churches).

(*) It's debatable exactly who understood Greek. Educated people would speak it, and literate people most likely were literate in Greek, not Aramaic. Some people think Greek was widely understood throughout the Diaspora -- at least a handful of words, or a pidgin Grebrew -- while others think it was solely the province of the ruling Romans and some merchants.

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

("literate in Greek, not Aramaic" -> with the exception of people who read Biblical Hebrew, of course, but I mean literacy that isn't piety-motivated.)

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

tep how many people can tell good ancient Aramaic from bad??

jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, yeah, that :) I know, and not many more people can tell ecclesiastical Latin from antiquity Latin -- but the point is just that Gibson has made a show of authenticity and is failing on very basic things. It'd be one thing if good Aramaic were somehow more difficult than bad Aramaic, or if ecclesiastical Latin were easier -- it isn't (in fact, ecclesiastical Latin is a very weird accent; Vatican II had to proceed in French because no one could understand each other in Latin). The only reason ecclesiastical Latin would be easier is if he were using priests instead of translators/language coaches/whatever he uses.

(Aramaic wouldn't be worth singling out, but it's just one of those things that gets under my skin; if I were in physics and heard about a sci fi movie that promised to be "as realistic as possible," there'd probably be something about their faster-than-light drive or gravity bombs or anti-neutron-propulsion-pants that drove me nuts.)

Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

this movie's gonna be fucking awesome!

cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

barabbas: gangsta

cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

what kind of vegetable is gonna play judas?

cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

It'll be like Scarface for fundamentalists!

Nicolars (Nicole), Monday, 29 September 2003 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...
braveheart is on USA right now, what the hell is with gibson? why does he hate the english so? does it go back to the anglicans fucking off the catholics or something?

it's the part where the king throws the princes' boyfriend out the window, wtf.

teeny (teeny), Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

oh yeah that scene's a classic bit of hollywood homophobia.

i couldn't believe that movie when I finally saw part of it. Total turd.

miccio (miccio), Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)

Braveheart, I mean. Haven't seen The Passion.

miccio (miccio), Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)


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