I've seen a number of articles about this already and was wondering what ppl thought. I believe Gibson to be a bigoted asshole but still, could the film really be that inflammatory? I find that hard to believe. Any thoughts or scoop?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/02/national/02GIBS.html?pagewanted=all&position=Months Before Debut, Movie on Death of Jesus Causes StirBy LAURIE GOODSTEIN
With his movie about the death of Jesus under attack as anti-Semitic, Mel Gibson is trying to build an audience and a defense for his project by screening it for evangelical Christians, conservative Catholics, right-wing pundits, Republicans, a few Jewish commentators and Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
Mr. Gibson has poured $25 million of his money into the movie, "The Passion," calling it the most authentic and biblically accurate film about Jesus' death.
Now, seven months before its scheduled release on Ash Wednesday, the film has set off an uproar that both sides warn could undermine years of bridge building between Christians and Jews. The selected audiences who have seen the film defend it as the most moving, reverential — and violent — depiction of Jesus' suffering and death ever put on screen. Detractors, who have read a script but not seen the film, say it is a modern version of the medieval Passion plays that portrayed Jews as "Christ killers" and stoked anti-Jewish violence.
The dialogue is in Aramaic and Latin. Scholars say that belies the assertion of total authenticity, because the Romans spoke Greek. Mr. Gibson had said the film would not have English subtitles. But it is being screened with them, the marketing director, Paul Lauer, said, and they may remain. "The Passion" has no distributor. Mr. Lauer said "two major studios" were interested or Mr. Gibson might distribute it himself.
The controversy has been cast by many of his supporters as the Jews versus Mel Gibson. But it began when several Roman Catholic scholars voiced concern about the project because of Mr. Gibson's affiliation with a splinter Catholic group that rejects the modern papacy and the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which in 1965 repudiated the charge of deicide against the Jews.
Mr. Gibson has been screening "The Passion" for a few weeks for friendly audiences, but has refused to show it to his critics, including members of Jewish groups and biblical scholars. In Washington, it was shown to the Web gossip Matt Drudge, the columnists Cal Thomas and Peggy Noonan and the staffs of the Senate Republican Conference and the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and others. In Colorado Springs, the capital of evangelical America, the film drew raves. A convention of the Legionaries of Christ, a conservative Roman Catholic order of priests, saw a preview, as did Rush Limbaugh.
Audiences wept, and many were awestruck.
"Mel Gibson is the Michelangelo of this generation," said the Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of Evangelicals.
"It's going to be a classic," said Deal W. Hudson, publisher of Crisis, a conservative Catholic magazine. "It's going to be the go-to film for Christians of all denominations who want to see the best movie made about the Passion of Christ."
Mr. Gibson has said his movie will be true to the Gospel account of the last hours of Jesus' life. But Matthew, Mark, Luke and John differ greatly, presenting Rashomon-like accounts of the roles of the Romans and Jews in the Crucifixion.
A committee of Bible scholars who read a version of the script said that it was not true to Scripture or Catholic teaching and that it badly twisted Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death. The problem, the scholars said, is not that Mr. Gibson is anti-Semitic, but that his film could unintentionally incite anti-Semitic violence.
One scholar, Sister Mary C. Boys, a professor at Union Theological Seminary in New York, said: "When we read the screenplay, our sense was this wasn't really something you could fix. All the way through, the Jews are portrayed as bloodthirsty. We're really concerned that this could be one of the great crises in Christian-Jewish relations."
Mr. Gibson, who directed and was a co-author of the script, is vehement that any criticism is based on an outdated script that was stolen. He declined an interview, and his company, Icon Productions, said it was showing the movie just to selected journalists and critics.
Mr. Gibson said in a statement: "Anti-Semitism is not only contrary to my personal beliefs; it is also contrary to the core message of my movie. `The Passion' is a film meant to inspire, not offend."
The furor began in March, when the committee of scholars, five Catholics and four Jews, asked Icon Productions to show them the script. Five scholars hold endowed chairs at their universities, and all have long been engaged in interfaith dialogue. The group was assembled by officials of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith.
Those organizations were wary, because they had spent years drafting guidelines for ridding Passion plays of anti-Semitism. Some of the same scholars had consulted on the overhaul of the most famous Passion play, at Oberammergau, Germany.
The scholars say the other reason for concern was Mr. Gibson's strain of Catholicism. He built and belongs to a church in Los Angeles that is part of a growing but fractured movement known as "Catholic traditionalism." Considered beyond the pale even by conservatives, the traditionalists reject the Second Vatican Council and every pope since then, and they conduct Mass in Latin.
Mr. Gibson also set off alarms among the scholars when reports quoted him as saying his script had drawn on the diaries of Sister Anne Catherine Emmerich, a 19th-century mystic whose visions included extrabiblical details like having the Jewish high priest order that Jesus' cross be built in the Jewish temple.
Icon did not respond to the request to see the script. But someone leaked a copy to one of the scholars, the Rev. John T. Pawlikowski, a professor of social ethics and the director of the Catholic-Jewish Studies program at the Catholic Theological Union. Father Pawlikowski said in an interview that the script came from a friend who got it from another person whom he did not know.
The scholars sent a report to Icon complaining about the script, again receiving no response. After excerpts of the report appeared in the news media — both sides say the other leaked it — the scholars circulated their complaints.
"This was one of the worst things we had seen in describing responsibility for the death of Christ in many many years," Father Pawlikowski said.
In particular, the scholars objected that the Jewish priest, Caiaphas, was depicted as intimidating Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, into going along with the Crucifixion. Several people who saw the film last month said the version they saw had that portrayal. The scholars said that section distorts the fact that the Romans were the occupying power and that the Jewish authorities were their agents.
Mr. Lauer, marketing director for Icon, said Mr. Gibson's rendering was not anti-Semitic, but simply followed the New Testament. "There are some sympathetic to Christ and some who clearly want to get rid of this guy," he said. "And that's clearly scriptural. You can't get away from the fact that there are some Jews who wanted this guy dead."
The script that the scholars read was dated October 2002, when, Mr. Lauer acknowledged, filming began. But scripts often change after shooting starts, he added.
Icon threatened to sue the scholars and the bishops' conference. The bishops soon apologized and said it had neither authorized the scholars' panel nor the report.
Mr. Gibson has sought to mend fences with the bishops. He met recently in Washington with officials of the conference and has shown the film to Cardinals Anthony Bevilacqua of Philadelphia and Francis George of Chicago, as well as Archbishop Charles J. Chaput of Denver.
But the scholars and the Anti-Defamation League have not backed down. They are pressing Mr. Gibson to show them the rough cut that he has been screening.
The national director of the Anti-Defamation League, Abraham H. Foxman, said, "If you say this is not anti-Semitic and this is a work of love and reconciliation, why are you afraid to show it to us?"
"There is no way on God's green earth," Mr. Lauer said, "that any of those people will be invited to a screening. They have shown themselves to be dishonorable."
People who have seen the movie say it is brutally graphic, dwelling at length on a scourging scene that renders Jesus a bloody piece of flesh before he is even nailed to the Cross. He is beaten with a leather strap studded with metal points that, when slapped across a tabletop, stick in the wood like spikes.
Roman soldiers administer the beating in the film, Mr. Hudson, the Catholic publisher, said. "By the time the Romans get through with him," Mr. Hudson said, "you've forgotten what the Jews might have done."
Mr. Gibson's vision "pays tribute to Judaism," Mr. Lauer said, by underscoring Christianity's roots. The controversy, he added, has built a considerable buzz about the movie. "You can't buy that kind of publicity," he said.
― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― Prude (Prude), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:05 (twenty-two years ago)
― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:08 (twenty-two years ago)
― Alex K (Alex K), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)
― dave q, Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)
seriously, though, I think it must be the height [exaggerating] of blasphemy to/to want to make a movie about Jesus and stuff and also to/to want to go to see a movie about Jesus and stuff. real christians should boycott this film. please. as well as the jews and the rest.
― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)
that said the cast looks really good, which has something to recommend it.
― anthony easton (anthony), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:49 (twenty-two years ago)
― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)
― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)
― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)
― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)
― Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)
― Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:38 (twenty-two years ago)
This sentence is so stupid I can barely get my head around it to formulate a response.
― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)
"That ain't the way I remember it!"
also, i think it'd be cool if they had seens with Jesus hallucinating and talking to a big scary nu-metal rabbit that showed him the future.
― Kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)
― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)
― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)
This, though:
In particular, the scholars objected that the Jewish priest, Caiaphas, was depicted as intimidating Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, into going along with the Crucifixion.
is utter crap. Aside from what the article points out -- Caiaphas would not be in any position to intimidate Pilate, and if he had been, he would've used that position to stop the tax that funded Pilate's aqueduct, a tax that inspired several violent uprisings -- Pilate probably never even heard Jesus's name until the man was already dead. He was as likely to be involved in the whole thing as a state governor is to be involved in the prosecution of an armed robbery.
(Of course, Caiaphas possibly had nothing to do with it either.)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)
What does THAT mean?
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)
Dammit, Verhoeven, get off your ass.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)
fer extra laughs, check out the message board section at the bottom of the page.
― Kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)
― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)
― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)
― chaki (chaki), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)
There are often substantial differences (Jews don't require that the Messiah be the Son of God, which is pretty much Jesus's defining characteristic in Christianity), but it is an odd subset, and a strange choice of test audiences.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)
― Millar (Millar), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)
On the other hand, most of the first two generations of "Christians" were "Jews who dig Jesus," so I dunno. I'm making a mental note now to find out more about the movements at some point, cause there was some stuff in Reform Judaism early on which was very Jesus-friendly, and I wonder if it grew out of that.
(And then at the other end of the scale, there's the whole wacky trend in the Southwest states of deciding you're Jewish because of the number of "secret Jews" who moved to the Spanish colonies and abandoned their old cultural traditions.)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)
Although I'm not sure about the ethnic identity bit, though it is probably true for a lot of people. In the US at least Jewishness is identified with a very particular East European Ashkenazi heritage, but the larger constellation of Jewish identity does incorporate North African/Spanish Sephardim, Yemenites etc. Common among these groups is belief and practice, not ethnicity.
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)
The concept of Jewish ethnic identity ... well, hell, we could fill a thread with that, and I'm far from an expert. Belief and practice are common in the background of all those groups, but there are so many, many Jews who don't practice, and still self-identify as Jewish. It's not ethnic in the same sense as "Italian" or "Irish," though, yeah, but I'm not sure what word would be better to make that distinction.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)
Was your grandmother married to a fellow named Mengele perhaps?
― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)
I'd also like to point out that the best Jesus movie is that one that had Christian Bale in it:
http://www.lakinreps.com/photographers/unit/endreny/images/02_endreny.jpg
I've never seen it and this is the only item that comes up on a search for "Christian Bale Jesus" so I'm hoping those are all stills from Mary, Mother of God!
― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)
Virgin Mary: Johnny Depp
― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)
― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)
Johnny Depp as the Virgin Mary? Sure, he'll have to wear slightly less eye makeup than in Pirates.
― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)
OK well who do you suggest Johnny Depp play? The Virgin Mary should be Madonna anyway, why didn't I think of that a minute ago.
― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)
Oh, Madonna. All right, yeah. Madonna as the Virgin Mary. Depp can play Thomas. Or Lazarus, all fucked up from getting his resurrection on.
― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 28 September 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)
the trailer shows Christ's palms nailed and wrists BOUND (more common in persian crucifixions, while "nailing apparently was preferred by the Romans" according to the JAMA article) - it's probably safe to assume that gibson & co settled on the combination as a compromise between medical accuracy and literal interpretation.
― jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)
Maybe that's what they did. It's still part of his odd pattern of attempts to be historical (filming in "authentic languages," without subtitles) turning out to be awkward failures (ecclesiastical Latin, terrible Aramaic, the wrist thing ...)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)
ohmigod this sounds awesome
― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)
(I'm actually all for using anachronistic English in period movies, just because everyone always does. How is having Washington talk like Capone somehow more anachronistic than having him talk like Generic British Guy on American Television? It isn't. It's just differently anachronistic.)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)
― jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)
Oscar Time:Most Ridiculous Fake Accent in a Movie
(The Devil's Own)
― ailsa (ailsa), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)
http://www.geocities.com/puckrobin/rh/kevincost.jpg
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)
Mel Gibson can eat shit and die, by the way.
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― Mel Gibson (amateurist), Sunday, 28 September 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)
― jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)
― robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)
― robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― robin (robin), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)
Language stuff -- Latin would have been spoken in Rome itself (alongside Greek), but the world is still essentially Hellenic at this point, not Romanized. Greek is the trade language and the language common to the Roman Empire's holdings; Rome might control the world, but it was Greece that went out, found it, built cities there, and drew Rome a map to show them the way to get there.
In Palestine -- where the Passion and any other non-kooky Jesus stories take place -- the three main languages would be Aramaic (a descendent of Hebrew and other Semitic languages), Greek (*), and Biblical Hebrew, which was used for liturgical services in synagogues and the Temple, but was probably not understood by many people (much like the Latin mass and liturgy in Catholic churches).
(*) It's debatable exactly who understood Greek. Educated people would speak it, and literate people most likely were literate in Greek, not Aramaic. Some people think Greek was widely understood throughout the Diaspora -- at least a handful of words, or a pidgin Grebrew -- while others think it was solely the province of the ruling Romans and some merchants.
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― jones (actual), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)
(Aramaic wouldn't be worth singling out, but it's just one of those things that gets under my skin; if I were in physics and heard about a sci fi movie that promised to be "as realistic as possible," there'd probably be something about their faster-than-light drive or gravity bombs or anti-neutron-propulsion-pants that drove me nuts.)
― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)
― cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 28 September 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)
― Nicolars (Nicole), Monday, 29 September 2003 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)
it's the part where the king throws the princes' boyfriend out the window, wtf.
― teeny (teeny), Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)
i couldn't believe that movie when I finally saw part of it. Total turd.
― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)