TS: MLB NL MVP - Albert Pujols v. Barry Bonds

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Pujols seems to be the consensus pick, yet if Bonds had Pujols' ABs (or if Pujols had the Bonds' BBs) there would be no contest IMHO.

Tell me ILX, please tell me why Pujols' achievements appear more worthy than Bonds'.

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, Pujols will win for the same reason anyone besides Mickey Mantle won mvps in the al during the fifties - the writers wanted to give it to someone else for a change. fwiw this is the first time Bonds has lost the mvp to anyone who even remotely deserved it over him.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

plus Bonds is an asshole

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Like SI points out -- I think it's what's his name, Tom the baseball guy who points it out -- every year, the problem is always that there's never been an agreed-upon definition for what MVP should mean, really. Best player? Player who makes the most difference to his team? Does "most difference" mean "if not for this guy, the Tigers would beat us," or "if not for this guy, we would've had more trouble in the World Series and might've lost by one game instead of winning by one game"? Is it "this is the guy we build the lineup around" or "this is the guy who got the other guys home"?

I can see strong arguments for either Pujols or Bonds, depending on what you want for criteria, but I'd say the same for A-Rod.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:00 (twenty-two years ago)

the thing is this year (and every other year he got ripped off) Bonds is the best pick using either criteria.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you really think the Giants without Bonds would suffer more than the Cardinals without Pujols? I haven't seen as many Giants games, maybe I'm just buying into a lot of Midwest Pujols hype.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:03 (twenty-two years ago)

and last year I was all "Tejada for MVP! Tejada for MVP!" but only cuz I'm an A's fan.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll take the Cards offense without Pujols over the Giants offense without Bonds.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Hell, last year I wanted Derek Lowe, pitcher or not :) (Has a pitcher ever made MVP? I think they're eligible...)

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Pedro totally shoulda won it in 98, I think the last pitcher to actually win it though was Clemens in 86.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:06 (twenty-two years ago)

86 was when we lost the World Series! Did he really? I must have blocked that out.

I think Shea Hillenbrand was actually my early pick last year, but things didn't go the way I expected for him (go figure). I'm really not at all sure who I'd pick for AL this year. Manny or Edgar Martinez, I guess.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Barry is still owed for that year they inexplicably gave the MVP to Terry Pendleton

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:11 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, I remember when Clemens won Hank Aaron said pitchers shouldn't win the mvp and Clemens said he wished Aaron was still playing so he could pitch a fastball 'down the middle of his head'!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Sosa is still owed for McGwire's big year

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Sosa won that year!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

cuz the Cubs made one of their occasional appearances in the post season

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

That is so Clemens. Jesus.

Sosa burned his coupons, as far as I'm concerned.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

A Rod should have two mvps now - fucking Juan Gone

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:17 (twenty-two years ago)

God damn I wish someone would drop the gloves and have a go at Clemens. I will never forgive Piazza for not charging that mound.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I know - Alf totally had his back!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:19 (twenty-two years ago)

moreso 2000 when they gave it to Jeff "hi i hit in front of you know who throw me a meatball" Kent.

Kent = .334, .424 OB%, .596 SLG, 1.021 OBS, 33 HR, 114 R, 125 RBI
Bonds = .306, .440 OB%, .688 SLG, 1.120 OBS, 49 HR, 129 R, 106 RBI

I can't pull RARP but I'm sure you get the picture...

Kent gets the edge on the "meaningless" stats (BA, RBI) and takes the award. BS.

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:19 (twenty-two years ago)

plus Kent has that terrible moustache

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I really can't decide how I feel about the whole aggressive pitcher thing. On the one hand, every time it comes up, I think, Christ, what a dick, and on the other, almost every pitcher will say it's normal and just part of the game. If everyone expects it, maybe it's not as ... unsportsmanlike as it feels to me. But Jesus, he went on in an SI interview about how he has to pitch "angry." That makes it hard for me to keep up my "baseball is great because it's all fun, it's like when we were kids playing in the sandlot, la la," thing.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:21 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, I just traded for Kent but that was fucking bullshit - that made even less sense than Pendleton winning when voters were trying to figure out how the hell the Braves went from worst to first and went 'um, Terry Pendleton I guess' (I bet Sid Bream got some votes too).

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:21 (twenty-two years ago)

eff shawn estes for ~~being chickenshit~~ not standing up for his teammate and pitching behind clemens, what an idiot.

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:22 (twenty-two years ago)

as much as I love Bob Gibson and Dock Ellis beaning like 8 Reds in a row is my favorite part of Dock Ellis in the Country of Baseball I'm totally pro aggressive pitchers (but then again Gibson and Ellis didn't have DH's to hide behind)

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:23 (twenty-two years ago)

YOU ARE THE DEVIL FOR MENTIONING SID BREAM

do not say francisco cabrera

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:23 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:24 (twenty-two years ago)

(but then again Gibson and Ellis didn't have DH's to hide behind)

See, I really think that's a big part of it right there, and it's why I sort of grudgingly shrug when Schilling defends pitching at the hands. Is it a coincidence that Clemens seems to do it the most blatantly, and he's in the AL?

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(Rhetorical question, obviously)

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

bream was bonds 1B for his first 4 seasons then he switched to the dark side...

there's a great pic series in a may 92 SI (bonds cover) of jay bell hitting the ball at kirk gibson's (the runner on 1st, where bream is playing defense) helmet and mad-cap hilarity ensues.

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:27 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, i'm well aware of sid bream's heritage. that's what makes it all the more painful.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Now Sidd Finch, there was an MVP candidate.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 01:29 (twenty-two years ago)

― clouds, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 12:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the last pitcher to actually win it though was Clemens in 86.

Eckersley won in 1990.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

er, 1992.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

You can't stop the Puj. And the longer his hitting streak goes, the more the MVP belongs to him. (Plus walks are boring and Puj has like 30 more rbis then Bonds.)

― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

the Puj

Do you pronounce this like "Pooge"?

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

bnw,

Bonds has 77 RBI/314 AB = .245 RBI per AB
Pujols has 105 RBI/446 AB = .235 RBI per AB

Bonds is a more effective RBI producer but here is the real kicker:

Bonds has 111 BBs to Pujols' 50.

This is hard to quantify but work with me here: How much more often do you think that Pujols is given the opportunity to hit in RBIs than Bonds does? And even despite that, Bonds is still more effective... see where I'm going?

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

So is it a matter of sheer quantity of RBIs or who is more effective at batting in runs?

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

ooh ooh ooh, can someone tell me what BB means please? i think i've just about got my head round most of the other acronyms now, look:

AB = at bats
RBI = runs batted in
WHIP = walks and hits per innings pitched (i'm particularly proud of that one ;)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

BB = Base on Balls = Walks

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I get that Bonds' stats are cut-down by how often he is walked. But if we were really to break it down, how many of those walks come in rbi situations? (Or when you can hit 73 hr's, is every at bat an rbi chance?) Also Bonds lost some of those at bats by not playing.

I mean, if we are still taking MVP to mean the most important contributor to his team, then I think quantity matters more then per AB averages b/c those rest on hypotheticals.

― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

does no one else think "haha he's called poo holes" by the way?

thanks for that gygax, why don't they just call them walks then?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Because there was already a stat represented by a "W"

― ModJ, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

How can RBIs be an issue with Bonds? He gets walked nearly everytime anyone is on base. He rarely makes any outs with people on base. How can he do any better than that? The Cardinals would still have a decent offense without Pujols (Rolen, Renteria, Edmonds, are pretty great players); the Giants wouldn't have any offense at all without Bonds. Their second best hitter is who? JT Snow? Marquis Grissom? Andres Galaragga? JD Drew is better than any of these guys. Also, Bonds plays half his games in the toughest hitters park in the majors.

The only thing Pujols has going for him in this debate is playing time. The playing time argument may be a good one -- Pujols has like 70 more plate appearances than Bonds. If you add 70 PA of Marvin Benard production to Bonds' stats I'm not sure who would come out on top.

― Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

1. What's with the clouds?
2. RBI wot?
3. No one is walking Pujols in a one run game w/ NO ONE on.
4. Barry.

― Leee (Leee), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

The clouds remind me of the end of The Truman Show.

"Cue the sun."

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

"and will someone get Phillip Glass out of here already, geez"

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 18 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Willis wasn't voted on to the Allstar team, he chosen as a replacement for someone after the original team was announced.

Having either a weird pitch, oddball windup or a strange set of habits on the mound will always get press coverage.

― earlnash, Thursday, 14 August 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

omg duh, pitchers don't get allstar votes. ignore everything i've said on this and all other threads </wishful thinking>

with earlnash's 2nd claim, al hrabosky may be my favorite pitcher ever (if not kent tekulve for trading in his amber tint sunglasses worn with the bucs for a rose pair upon arrival with the phillies).

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 14 August 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Turk Wendell
Dan Quisenberry
Mike Fetters (?? I think this is the Mr.Angry Face guy)

(Tekulve gets bonus points for being 6-4 and weighing a buck o'five and having that dapper squared off Pirate hat.)

― earlnash, Thursday, 14 August 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Ben Weber and Rob Dibble also had the rockem sockem robot delivery that is pretty classic. Dibble gets bonus points for getting freakazoid and ripping off his jersey after a win and throwing the ball at Andre Dawson because he bunted on him.

― earlnash, Thursday, 14 August 2003 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

1. I loved the one shot in last year's WS that showed the Giants' batboys imitating/mocking Weber's delivery.

2. Do teams use an exaggerated shift on right handed hitters? Is there a Pujols-shift?

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 14 August 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Pujols is a righthanded hittler like Frank Thomas in that he has some patience at the plate and will put the ball all over the field. He isn't a die hard pull hitter like many power hitters.

Weber also has some funky shooting/skiing glasses which with his bald head adds to the rockem sockem delivery. I never saw him pitch until the playoffs last year and couldn't belive how wacky he threw, it was even more stiff than Dibble, which is saying something.

Mark Grace pitched clean up in a blowout last year for the Diamondbacks and he was doing the "Mr. Angryface" thing with most of his pitches. Some rookie took him for yard and Grace had a funny quote about how embarressing your first major league home run would come off of "Mark Grace".

― earlnash, Thursday, 14 August 2003 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

bonds wins!

why?

the giants w/o Bonds = the detroit tigers

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 18 August 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

mvp

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but the whole Todd Helton thing shows it's a little silly to consider an MVP from a losing team (which is a point not germaine to this particular conversation, but helps well with the A-Rod v. Tejada debate LAST year...)

― ModJ, Monday, 18 August 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

um, Colorado's only 4.5 games back of St. Louis

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

how many road games do they have left in the season?

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

plus Chacon's gone

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

plus those road games...

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

gygax, if Pujols breaks DiMaggio's record do you think he'll get the MVP?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Thing is he won't break DiMag. It's the one record that will stand 4eva.

― Leee (Leee), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post)

he won't, but even if, does he deserve it?

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

did dimaggio deserve it over williams that year?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

How could Pujols break it if 40-something was the best Hall of Famer Pete Rose could muster?

― Leee (Leee), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

that asshole Gene Garber isn't pitching anymore

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Delgado was the runaway for AL MVP but the NY Post didn't even put him in the top ten. They had Nomar as #1.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Nomah isn't even the MVP on that team!

― Bill Mueller's #1 Fan (Leee), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Delgado has been ice-cold for a month or so, his RBI pace has fallen quite a bit (he's no longer leading the majors, Preston Wilson is and Pujols should overtake him very soon).

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

MVP

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, BB's bat looks like a tiny child's bat in that pic

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Friday, 22 August 2003 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, if we are still taking MVP to mean the most important contributor to his team, then I think quantity matters more then per AB averages b/c those rest on hypotheticals.

Even without going into hypotheticals Bond's EQR is still a higher percentage of the Giants' overall run production than Pujols', and Bonds has almost 100 more total bases than Pujols in 75 fewer plate appearances. Ironically for a power hitter he's creating a ton of run opportunities for an otherwise weak offensive team. Pujols' performance with RISP is awesome but could be made up for more easily by the rest of the Cardinals' lineup.

― chester (synkro), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

NL Total Bases:

1 Albert Pujols, StL 318
2 Todd Helton, Col 305
3 Preston Wilson, Col 282
4 Gary Sheffield, Atl 277
5 Luis Gonzalez, Ari 256
6 Mike Lowell, Fla 255
7 Jim Thome, Phi 250
8 Richie Sexson, Mil 249
9 Barry Bonds, SF 246
Andruw Jones, Atl 246

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Mmm, that crack pipe tastes good in the morning.

(doh, i had their pages open in two different browser windows and mixed 'em up).

― chester (synkro), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

ps: gygax the theory on georgia sports radio, pages about the lack of smoltz use is "bobby cox is an idiot"

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

he showed up in the bullpen last night during worrell's self-destruction but ATL went with hodges.

i'm coming around to Leee's POV here: would Pujols be intentionally walked with runners on 1st/3rd with only one out? how come teams don't radically alter their defense when Pujols comes up? et cetera.

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Probably not since he's yet to walk at all in that situation so far this year. Why not I have no idea - he's 11/22 with 19 RBIs!

― chester (synkro), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Most Feared Batter != MVP

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

RBIs and BA <> MVP

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

#$%@!!

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Pujols sitting out games in the middle of the streak combined with Bonds "this party's over" Mace Windu theatrics against the Braves have swung the tide more toward Bonds

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Cinnajames speaks truth.

― Leee (Leee), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait til the Puj's hitting streak picks up again.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I have to admit, though I love Pujols, I've switched to the Bonds camp on this.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait til Pujols smacks two game winning homers in three days.

― Leee (Leee), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

MVP != Sportscenter air-time.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

riiight

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

RIP Bobby.

― Tep (ktepi), Saturday, 23 August 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

oh that's awful. he was at the game the other day. RIP

― cinniblount (James Blount), Saturday, 23 August 2003 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I probably should not have posted that to this thread, I wasn't thinking of what it might look like I was implying about the MVP ... but yeah, it's awful. One of the great 70s players, and if not for the great 70s players, who knows how well baseball would've survived to the 80s. I don't even mind that he was a Yankee for awhile.

― Tep (ktepi), Saturday, 23 August 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Bonds' new numbers merit MVP honors

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

wrt: neato hitting streak

from 7/12-8/21 Pujols got a hit in each game he played; however, during that same time period Bonds put up better numbers:

Pujols .389/.462/.712 OPS 1.174, 8HR
Bonds .408/.591/.895 OPS 1.486, 10 HR

it's neato that Pujols got a hit in 30 consecutive games, but Bonds also reached base in all of his games played in the same time period. In fact, the last time Bonds didn't reach base was 6/25 and he's only played 4 games this year where he didn't reach base.

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 5 September 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Bonds goes 2-2 with 3 [THREE] 4-pitch walks in San Diego (30 games out)...

Even the last place team (Brewers or Reds- both only 12.5 behind STL) in Pujols' division wouldn't give Al 3 free-passes...

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 04:42 (twenty-two years ago)

this guy's a little over the top but he makes some pretty good points

plus i never knew shef said that! key razay.

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

whoops

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

UGh, I hateHATEHATE Skip Bayliss. He has to be the worst, unfunny, most hypocritical, stylistically trite, revisionist, pettiest bandwagoningest writer who makes everything personal (he attacked Darren Baker on 'moral grounds' for corn's sake!).

― Leee (Leee), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

sheffield's a bit of a bitch

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

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