No Good (Start the Norm Chomsky Opposition)

Could everyone keep the responses in original numbered format, so I can read it easier.

1. There are plenty of "voices of protest". C.f. people like yourself.

2. I didn't see the Bush speech but I've been absolutely 100% unimpressed with his behavior throughout this whole ordeal and I doubt a shiny well-rehearsed "We're #1, we'll get the varmints" speech would've made me change my mind, even if I had seen the whole full thing live. He's a trained monkey, not a president.

3. I think England is full of assholes. No offense to English people on this board, but if I hear one more of my English friends (most of which I have stopped speaking to) make some snotty comment about the IRA and how Americans "get what they deserve for supporting the IRA", I will car bomb someone in London myself. Fact: NO ONE I KNOW INCLUDING PSYCHO IRISH PATRIOTS IN THE US SUPPORTS THE IRA. It's an urban myth that apparently only affects people in certain areas of London's brains. And quite frankly I think those people should be ashamed of themselves because it's not like the British government is much above the IRA, whose actions are despicable, but that's another thread. But yes, the English want to gain sympathy for their anti- Irish cause, as any so-called ally would in a situation as this.

4. When was the last time you donated money to Afghanistan? Fuck you, the entire economy of New York City is based around the area of NY that is now missing. Do you have an issue with human charity and decency? Don't donate. You're right, what about Afghanistan? Would you like to provide us with some receipts and/or photographs proving your immense charitable contributions to those starving and/or widowed in that country?

2. Well, who else should have it? 4. That's their lookout.

More on #4 - maybe NYC is rich because most of the population isn't in thrall to medieval superstition. Sorry, the number of apologists for Islam extremism in the media (here in the UK at least) is reaching critical mass.

4. With all aid being stopped from going to Afgh., how could I send money over, Ally? Fact: Millions will die in this war. Fact: You will not see this on television. Example to the last fact: America bombed a water treatment plant in Iraq. Consequences: Millions died because of unsafe water.

3: No. Any evidence you have to the contrary gratefully recd, Jay, but my guess = Blair govt will be frantically and seriously trying to decouple the current War on Terrorism rhetoric from anything to do with Ireland. Bush approach the LAST thing they want to try. not least cuz the province is a monument to a waged war lost, and TB has staked much on setting out down another road. Probable line: Sinn Fein etc = former terrorists, who saw the light and turned away from the military line.

1. He was murdered by the Taliban on Sep 9th.

Man, if only the contras, or Suharto, or the Duvaliers, etc. blew something up we'd get feature-length CNN docs exposing the horrible conditions to which those regimes exposed their subjects. After seeing CNN's "Behind the Veil" wherein a woman reporter penetrates northern Afghanistan with a hidden camera, interviews rape victims and children of slain dissenters, and films public executions in an internationally- financed soccer stadium I am convinced that the Taliban is one organization (among many) I wouldn't mind seeing put in a spaceship and shot into the sun.

3. Mark S., did you see the Bush speech? If so, were you not worry about the close proximity that Tony Blair now has with George Bush (several close ups on the lovely (ha!) Blairs with mention of "special friends". America is setting themselves on the world stage as a police force of terrorists. Ironic, considering that they funded Bin Laden, funded the terrorist camps, essentially, made Bin Laden. And now with "convert" operations, America is abouit to become the biggest terrorist on world stage.

But I'm babbling.

I don't know. It's up in arms. Canada was not mentioned in the Bush speech, as the closest ally, historically, you have to wonder about several things. Will countries change policy to appease the Americans? Will countries allow America footing in their banking/immigrantion/etc. systems for their search for terrorists?

1. Tracer Hand, do you really think that North America media will show objective footage on the taliban. I have watch two documentaries made two years prior on Bin Laden and Taliban. It's a different culture. I have no right to judge it. I have no experience with it. If I was there, experiencing atrocities, they maybe, I would say: Taliban is wrong. But I simply do not know.

"blew something up" shd read "blew something up in downtown New York" obviously

Here's what Naomi Klein, actually said
as opposed to Jay's silly and adolescent misrepresentation.

But I'm babbling.

Indeed.

1. I was still disappointed Mark. Silly or not.

Jay: as regards Northern Irish politics I think yr own wild and panicky speculations are pretty irrelevant.

He's called NOAM Chomsky, btw.

Go to hell Ned.

Anyone with your name and your gadawful appearance should be happy that they can talk to someone on the internet. As it stands, you are the world's missing inspiral carpet fan, fuck face.

I'm out of here.

I thought this was a place were I could throw down some thoughts. I am not a political anaylst. I am not involved in the war.

As it stands, the war is another topic where you use your "intellectual superiority" to thinly masque your horrific lonely lives.

Bye.

Don't let the door hit you on your arse on the way out.

If you are still reading this, Jay -- and somehow I suspect you'll yet come back -- my question in the other thread is serious, though my response in this thread is clearly flippant. I'm not saying you have to be a political analyst, but I *am* saying you can't expect to advance some of what you've said without expecting either criticism or a request to be a bit more grounded.

Blimey - this thread was like the whole HeyBuddy saga in fast forward!

Fact: NO ONE I KNOW INCLUDING PSYCHO IRISH PATRIOTS IN THE US SUPPORTS THE IRA. It's an urban myth that apparently only affects people in certain areas of London's brains.

Anyone who knows anything at all about the IRA knows where most of their resources are raised. Thats one of the reasons why American involvement in the peace-process has been so crucial. No urban myth but a fact. Check out any book on the IRA.

It's a different culture. I have no right to judge it.

Aww go ahead. We won't tell anybody.

So much for that then.

But incidentally 4. This is what I keep saying: yes give give give to NYC and then don't stop there but keep an eye and wallet out in future for other emergencies and disasters you can do your bit for, including the ongoing situation in Afghanistan.

It's a different culture.

but not an afghani culture? exposed from outside (saudi/pakistan)?

And about that 'different culture' concept -- I do suspect, Jay, that if you were possessed of what I generally consider to be the superior chromosome set, namely the double X one, you might have rather a different point of view on the matter.

"It's a different culture. I have no right to judge it. I have no experience with it."

wow, same here. i've never visited the country, eaten the food, studied the region, practiced the religion, or spoken the language. yet, oddly enough, i still find forcibly (and violently, lest we forget that part of the equation) inserting your penis into an unwilling womans vagina, denying basic civic and social rights (incl. and esp. but not limited to education), murdering dissidents, imprisoning foriegn reporters and aid workers...well, just, um, wrong? maybe a teensy bit? or am i a weepy liberal?

(and next time you're going to attack one of us...please try to avoid schoolyard taunting and rubbing our faces in our tastes. i'd say i smelt a doompatrol, but i doubt he woulda cracked this early.)

Firstly, I am not an intellectual. I have made my living and education on pop culture. I never represented myself as a policital intellectual.

What I did was take an extremist view to *learn*. Believe or not, this works, it works with my friend Mark, who is a captain in the freaking USA army. I am pointed into different areas. Informed of different viewpoints. I find it beneficial. Hence, the babbling concept, I *am* thinking. I *am* digesting. This is all *very* new for me. I am not political.

See you.

PS. I made grammatical and spelling errors throughout, I expect a thorough list by morning.

PS. That was a typo with Chomsky's name. Thanks for pointing it out. Wankers.

Jay seems eerily similar to the "Scott" who appeared on ILM and started the At the Drive In thread -- particularly the googling of other posters for the sole purpose of insulting whatever comes up.

Or is this just a pattern of behaviour that lots of people follow?

Nitsuh, lots of people do this, ususally when they've given up on a debate or been backed into a corner that they can't or don't care to argue their way out of. Swing through some of the Usenet newsgroups for better examples.

Oh fer chrissakes, I'm sorry I read the bloody "INTRODUCE YOURSELF" thread. And I'm sorry for losing my temper. And I'm sorry for playing Devil's Advocate so poorly. And I'm sorry for being an idiot and not understanding things. And I'm sorry sorry sorry.

I am very tense and I'm in a bad situation, on one hand, I have friends for obviously reasons that are pro-american and friends that are anti-war effort. I don't know where to stand, so I bounce things off of both of them.

My mistake was thinking that I could do it here.

No stop going on about me!!!!!!! Please!!! I'm bloody tense enough as it is with Mark going into action.

Look, Jay, if you're worried, that's quite understandable. I've had a couple of really bad nights over the past two weeks. We've all been there, I suspect. But we all have to look at things with our brain as much as our hearts, too. Don't knock yourself too much, just learn to ease back on the sweeping pronouncements and take some time before posting, that's all.

Jay, this is a volatile board and people often go off at eachother, yet rarely slip into personal "fuck-off"-isms as quickly as you did, which is possibly why you're left isolated. Maybe you should read more and lurk longer. One question a day as well?

1. Voices of protest and dissent are everywhere but they're being heard far more outside the US mainstream media. Michael Moore, on his wonderful site, is saying that he's been approached by numerous TV networks after his drive across America last week, but they're all foreign - no American ones.

2. No, lots of people agree

3. No, the IRA is nothing to do with Britain / US 's *special* friendship. And the US won't include the IRA in its war on terrorism, just as it won't include the CIA.

4. Because obviously someone organising a telethon for NYC doesn't want to be distracted with Afghan stuff right now. It was insensitive of you to ask - you should just quietly support charities working in Afghanistan - except they've all been scared off. This question is stupid. It's like asking why the bus driver looks cross when you give her a £20 note for a 60p bus ride - common sense, mate.

One-question-per-day rule is an ILM rule (now defunct) not an ILE one.

I don't think I will be asking questions about the war again, thanks. Again, many apologies, but you have to understand, I can talk fluently about movies/books/music but politics? I'm fucked. I don't know where to look. Obviously I don't believe everything on mainstream media....but it's never been *important* to me before. So, between Dustin and Mark, I'm getting extreme views from both.

I understand both. But surely there must be a common ground.

well, there's an interesting article on the world socalist web site about this whole thing that might spark some paranoia up. personally i think, whomever is responsible for this, that the US government and it's cronies around the world are going to use this as an excuse for diminishing or abolishing what were considered human rights and simulaneously using the distraction to slip lots of evil legislation through while no one's looking to advance the cause of their all singing, all dancing, no thinking, one world government.

i am, it should be noted, completely insane.

oh, for fuck's sake. the article is here, no thanks to greenspun.

That article strikes me as being in line with 90% of the commentary on anything over the past two weeks -- namely, people take axes they've already ground, polished and honed and just reapply them.

Very well put Ned.

1. Lots of people. Do you need a celeb journalist/academic type like the sainted (almost) Noam Chomsky or Naomi Klein to legitimise your point of view? I don't. Too many lefty types are crippled by their devotion to certain venerated persons, which I think is intellectual cowardice, the same as having to produce a good review in the NME to legitimise your choice of favourite album or some shit like that.

2. I don't listen to that silly man anyway, and grandiose rabble- rousing speeches are hardly surprising at a time like this, eh?

3. Blair is getting all excited about this as it gives him an excuse to cosy up to America instead of Europe, which is sensible in these times when the EU is so important and yet so unpopular in the UK. I have my doubts as to whether the IRA, or indeed ANY of the NI terrorist organisations, republican or loyalist, will suffer in this ridiculous 'war against terrorism'.

4. Though me and Ally don't seem to be agreeing much currently, I'm with her on this one.

Damn good point, Ned.

4. For what it's worth, the American Red Cross was in Afghanastan before this occurred. And you can still help the hungry.

if you were possessed of what I generally consider to be the superior chromosome set, namely the double X one

Tsk tsk -- why start this nonsense? Not that boys are better than girls, either. The comparison itself is invidious, a landmine from which little good can come.

Please note the words 'what I consider' as opposed to 'what I firmly believe to be the case regardless of what anyone else says about anything anyway,' which perhaps is the reason why I think you need to relax a bit. ;-)

Oh, I know, and noticed. I just think it's a dangerous zone -- and in all honesty, one that's a pet peeve of mine -- and seemed like a bit of a hot potato as nonsequiturs go. Maybe it should be a thread of its own, who knows? "Are women superior to men?" or somesuch.

(Although maybe it shouldn't, or at least I ought not to read it, as it'll probably raise my blood pressure.)

1. People have already said that the voice of protest is around - and they are correct. (Robert Fisk, anyone?)

2. Bush = dud in 1990, dud in 1999, dud in 2000, dud in 2001. I will have the same view of W in 2010, if we live that long. He is a bad guy - his speeches are not going to change my mind on that.

3. Mark is correct re. IRA - at least, I hope he is (and I think he and I agree about the virtue of the 'alternative path' involved).

Ally says US people don't back the IRA. Of course most of them don't; and some of them do. Fair enough. No contradiction. Ally is wrong, though - with respect and all that - to talk about 'English people's anti-Irish campaign' or whatever (can't recall her exact words now). There is - quelle surprise! - a diversity of views on Ireland's politics in the UK. I would like to see a united Ireland, though I don't want to see any more blood shed in its name. That's just a personal view. There are many others.

4. Can't disagree with Ally and the Cockfarmer about the telethon thing ("listenin' in...").

re. gender: Phil is right, Raggett is wrong.

I really like the name Ned Raggett.

I really like the name Norm Chomsky.

I really like Arthur for choosing the superior of names to like, though I agree that Noam Chomsky makes for a great name, oh yes.

To pinefox -- bite me. There, some bitterness for ya. ;-)

He is bar-room intellectual = he is Norm Chomsky

*wild applause*

(tho actually the phrase "bar-room intellectual" seems a perfectly friendly description of half of ILx)

See? See? I are CLEVER and WITTY!

i think norm Chomsky is a great writer he inspires me he gives the people the truth he dosent brain wash people "unlike the us govt." he opend a new life for me. our cort systems are not just the "officals" lie and get away with it the judges are very unhonorable it is disgusting and awful the us corts terrorize the children and i wish to change this anyone who feels this way please contact me and help me try change a few things that determan our fate thank you .

P.S. to the people who say he is a british wrighter why dose he alway nock the U.S. well its because the GOD DAMN U.S. tries to countrol the world

Why are you all calling him Norm for heaven's sake?

Steve are you in my class?

"Chomsky fights for the poor"-Genuine quote. He lives in Sherwood forest too.

Pilger == little then?

Yes. Hitchens can be the Sheriff.

3. Fact: NO ONE I KNOW INCLUDING PSYCHO IRISH PATRIOTS IN THE US SUPPORTS THE IRA. It's an urban myth that apparently only affects people in certain areas of London's brains. And quite frankly I think those people should be ashamed of themselves because it's not like the British government is much above the IRA, whose actions are despicable, but that's another thread. But yes, the English want to gain sympathy for their anti- Irish cause, as any so-called ally would in a situation as this.

--This is demonstrably untrue. In the UK it is not required for Political Parties to publish audited accounts. It is in America. Noraid and Sinn Fein USA gather about half a million dollars in donations. Corporate sponsorship has included companies like McDonalds.

Please note UK Prime Ministers JM & TB engaged the IRA in a peace process and it is several years long.

3. I think England is full of assholes. No offense to English people on this board, but if I hear one more of my English friends (most of which I have stopped speaking to) make some snotty comment about the IRA and how Americans "get what they deserve for supporting the IRA", I will car bomb someone in London myself.[/quote]

What you have with them is the reaction of "anti-IRA" when these people have been the subject of terrorist attacks (and not just "one" but sustained over decades).

If you think Americans are anti-Islam now just imagine if Muslims (not all, just a vast minority) had been bombing America, cross- state, for decades. That's the situation many British are in reguarding the IRA.

And as I have stated - America - only the vast minority of Americans do support the IRA - becuase they give so much money to it.

Which is, like, "thanks a lot, guys".

3. because it's not like the British government is much above the IRA

For the record the IRA:

(a) plants bombs in civilian population centers (b) detonates them (c) beats men and children half to death for "transgressions against the community"

It's people like this poster who generate support for terrorists...