Artlessness

But seriously, when is artlessness a virtue? And artfulness (for lack of a better word) just so much bullshit? The difference between Enrico Caruso and Fred Durst? This applies to any form of artistic expression, not just music (which is why I created this thread on ILE and not ILM).

but deliberate artlessness is a sort of artfulness, yes?

That is, he's thought it out, to some extent. He's not just spouting off at the mouth.

to be self reflective about yr artlessness is to be self conicously(sp) artful.

There is an art which disguises its artistry. It is the art of many consumer products, of Hollywood movies, of MTV's The Real World....

the same thing can be said about mtv--there are two things happening in a music video, the desire to make art (most of the really avant short films i have seen in the last little while have been videos, and they have been given wide publicity) and to sell compact disc.

perhaps their is a third thing, to sell the image, the concept of the band, and perhaps a fourth--to sell coca cola.

and perhaps even a fifth, to sell MTV.

(the reality shows have some of this too--the contestants sell themselves, coca cola, and the concept of mtv, as well as the narrative history expected in "the real world")

when concerning oneselve with such enourmous layers of simulacra (sp), can one really consider oneself making art.

(its like painters from fitzroy crossing, who once painted to show pyschogeography and tribal legends, and moved onto acrylic on canvas, which meant that the art had two functions-- too tell the dreamtime stories and to make a living at sothebys, but not much of a living because the money still works collectivley, and some are more saleable then others----its like when inuit sculptors moved to prints and soapstone scultpures of polar bears instead of ptarmiagans, because the bears sold better, or the watts tower as a national historic site)

But "art brut" does signify essentially the same thing as the more recent term "outsider art." I forget the name of the Frenchman who coined the phrase, but he used it to encompass precisely art by the mentally ill and often the devoutly religious (monks, simple shut-ins)--stuff whose virtue was in its indifference or obliviousness to the "art world," stuff that was not at all self-conscious by the standards of that world.

when concerning oneselve with such enourmous layers of simulacra (sp), can one really consider oneself making art.

"Art" is such a superword, I feel anchorless talking about it like this. I agree with you very much about the multiple purposes of MTV shows, but I'm not sure what I think about that implying a lack of art. Does art necessarily mean what goes beyond commercial utility? Because surely per Mark there is a great craft involved in creating something useful ("focus-group formalism")--does this necessarily mitigate that something's artistic value? Because artfulness itself, or at least one conception of it or another, can be said to have a utility--it wins Oscars, it sends people to the theaters, to the museums, etc. I guess I'm a little wary of banishing art to this realm beyond the useful. (Even if the use is just expressing or trying to redeem a private madness.)

qualify, qualify, qualify! (are you saying that patronage, or just the presence of some specific ideological purpose, un-arts art?)

Right. There are "rules" and conventions of all kinds of art, even those that don't appear to require that much skill to do. (Take Fred Durst. Please!) "Rawness" and "artlessness" are just as much constructions as "refined art" or "skillful" art.

Yes, of course--unless the work mangage to wrestle its way out of the patronizing grip. As soon as you can predict what the work is going to be like, the work itself becomes superfluous. If not, it contradicts and transcends the order. ("My Giacometti doubles as doorstop, works fine" type retorts will be ignored--else, prepare for a longish romp through the dialectics of art and its carrier objects.)

Ha ha, Orbit providing us with a koan on the relation of art (however brut) and commerce (however well-meaning). "Indie labels sell crap--it's official!"

there are things that move me to tears sometimes, the way a sign decays, a statue of mary in the church yard, the iron girders of the high level bridge, i dont know, one is communcation, one is practical on a metaphyiscal level and the other just gets cars across the road.

what is the difference in those things, if they had moved me as much as martin ?

They moved you as much as I do? I'm jealous now...

Findings at last! I thought this thread would never arrive anywhere.