Is it possible to be both an artist and a critic?

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Of course it's advisable and even necessary for the two categories to overlap, but is it possible for someone to be both? Are the faculties needed to be a good artist that fundamentally different from those necessary to be a good critic/scholar? Can one side "corrupt" the other? That is, can too much scholarly/critical type thinkin' warp your artistic sensibilities? I've never heard anyone complain about the reverse happening, but it's certainly possible. But what is necessary to achieve some sort of a balance between these? Or does trying to strike a balance only make you good at neither?

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, but you forget the initial argument made by Frye in his introduction to Anatomy of Criticism: that criticism itself is an art distinct from the art being criticized. So I suppose you can dabble in two different arts, right?

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 25 August 2003 03:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i would like to believe that all artists are critics, albeit one sympathetic to their own intentions

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 25 August 2003 03:01 (twenty-two years ago)

That's what I'm getting at, yeah. That criticism isn't just a fallback for people who can't cut it as artists, but takes a certain sensibility all its own.

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 03:02 (twenty-two years ago)

yes and there are a number of examples of good artists/critics. Stan Brakhage comes to mind immediately, I guess 'cause I read a review of the retrospective DVD set today.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 August 2003 03:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll have to check him out, thanks hstencil. I wonder now, though, what the differences might be between an artist/critic and a "pure" critic.

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 03:06 (twenty-two years ago)

no such thing as a "pure" critic.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 August 2003 03:06 (twenty-two years ago)

artists are merciless critics

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 25 August 2003 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

How do you mean?

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

To hstencil, I mean.

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

well I was kinda making a joke but it was on the assumption that someone who's only known for the criticism wasn't also an artist, or hadn't tried their hand, or whatever.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 August 2003 03:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I meant it only half seriously, too. But you're right, that someone who just does criticism probably won't achieve any prominence as a critic.

(I have the nagging feeling the qualities that make a good critic have been covered in another thread, but I don't remember which one...)

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 03:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Although you can't really be a "pure" critic if criticism is indeed an art itself. So.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 25 August 2003 03:12 (twenty-two years ago)

That criticism isn't just a fallback for people who can't cut it as artists, but takes a certain sensibility all its own.

WOW what a condescending-as-fuck statement

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks, asshole.

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Care to actually contribute something?

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:07 (twenty-two years ago)

art IS criticism!!

― T.S. Eliot (gcannon), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:11 (twenty-two years ago)

You know what, fuck it. I don't care if you do. I don't want to know, honestly. You're one of the most aggressively unpleasant people I've ever encountered. You can make some smug little rejoinder about how unsophisticated I am or how I'm not smart enough to get what you do, or something that eliminates the possibility that you could ever be wrong or that discussion -- actual give and take between two people -- is worth your time. You're a mean, bitter, poisonous person.

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:15 (twenty-two years ago)

obviously criticism is a second-level creative act (if you want to class it as creation at all, though if you don't that's fine too) but I think you're, to put it kindly, willfully missing the point. on ILx alone you've got Darnielle and Sasha and Momus, all of whom have donned both caps regularly, whatever you think of their work on either end. so it's surprising that you'd even ask the question at all.

xpost: sorry I didn't finish this faster than you apparently require but now that I've wasted my time constructing a civil argument you can go fuck yourself, too, dickhead

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Good point, thank you.

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Prude, you have never "encountered" me in your life, as far as I know, unless we've met in person and I don't know it. (since I don't know who you are other than the pseudonym I couldn't say.) either way, let me at least make this attempt to clarify something: I have, for the past two months, been extremely busy and have only been able to poke my head into these parts on occasion, and when I have my posts have been as to-the-point as I can make them. I realize this might make me come off as a lot more brusque than I actually am, and while I'm not apologizing for it I am bewildered that you seem to think I'm attacking you personally, because the honest to god's truth is that this is the first time I have remembered your name (handle, whatever) in regards to anything specific on this board. if that makes me "deeply unpleasant," so be it.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I think he meant that for T.S. Eliot.

― s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:27 (twenty-two years ago)

ah.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Some dudes just have issues with "Tradition and the Individual Talent."

― s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm bitter about not being able to make it through The Waste Land. Grr...

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:31 (twenty-two years ago)

you're bitter about a lot more than that, evidently

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, clearly.

― Prude (Prude), Monday, 25 August 2003 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh. my. God. Let's. all. be. tense. and. terse.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 25 August 2003 05:32 (twenty-two years ago)

or better yet let's rip off Ethan's ideas

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 25 August 2003 06:05 (twenty-two years ago)

this is an interesting question. because when i was making music (just for fun) i couldn't even read ilm sometimes because it made me not wanna do anything ever. i'm a super critical artist. of myself most of all. and criticism can make you overthink everything to the point where you're paralized. it's also frustrating when your tastes or ideals or critical/theoretical thinking are much more developed than your artistic skills (patience! perserverence!) but i think it's always better to do something even if it's imperfect than to never finish anything until it's perfect.

like that failed dot.com i worked for who were on version 3 or 4 of their software and still never really released and marketed an actual product.

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Monday, 25 August 2003 08:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The world seems to think I'm an OK critic but a mediocre artist and that is causing me great pain. Honestly it would make me feel better if I was told I was a shit critic as well. Then I would at least be comforted by the thinking "Oh well, must be my way-out sensibility"

― dave q, Monday, 25 August 2003 08:35 (twenty-two years ago)

japanese improv guitarist masayuki takayanagi was by some accounts a pretty harsh jazz critic. He is, with derek bailey, my fave guitar player.

stefan jaworzyn (another improv guitarist) is a v good critic and fucking good guitar player too.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 August 2003 10:27 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: (Blue Oyster Cult vs Vom) vs Christopher Milk vs Birdland

― dave q, Monday, 25 August 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

(alt TS: C Cardew vs A Baraka)

― dave q, Monday, 25 August 2003 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(re takayanagi and jaworzyn - Improv Crit is a fuckin' excellent idea! give everybody word processors, say 'OK you have two hours go!' and put giant screens up so everyone can see what ppl are writing in real time! hold on that's kind of like ILM isn't it. maybe make sure all the stuff is deleted at the end so it's one-time-only crit and people have to go by innacurate memories later if they want to quote or even describe it!)

― dave q, Monday, 25 August 2003 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Did Truffaut and Chrissie Hynde carry on with writing any criticism? Did they ever say anything interesting about making the leap?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 25 August 2003 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

yes
yes
yes
yes
n/a
yes

― kephm, Monday, 25 August 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The sound of an intellectual orgasm.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 25 August 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it possible to be an artist and a cube drone?

― kephm, Monday, 25 August 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Can a blue man sing the whites?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

''(re takayanagi and jaworzyn - Improv Crit is a fuckin' excellent idea! give everybody word processors, say 'OK you have two hours go!' and put giant screens up so everyone can see what ppl are writing in real time! hold on that's kind of like ILM isn't it. maybe make sure all the stuff is deleted at the end so it's one-time-only crit and people have to go by innacurate memories later if they want to quote or even describe it!)''

ah but you see the prob is with the 'two hours to go'. In improv we don't know who long its gonna last.

Many of the records that I post abt on ILM I have it playing it on the stereo while writing it so yes, 'improv crit' is something I practise.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

TERRY EAGLETON.

― Lara (Lara), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

glenn gould and auden and ned rorem and george bernard shaw to thread!!

― critboy, Monday, 25 August 2003 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Do improv gigs actually go on past 'closing time'? How do the staff feel about that?

― dave q, Monday, 25 August 2003 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

(who's up for doing a gig? me on gtr, you on whatever you got! catch is, you have to supply some crystal meth for all of us to take before going on!)

― dave q, Monday, 25 August 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

well I have seen some staff get pretty nervous if the gigs went on a bit.

improv is abt listening to each other and reacting accordingly. could you do that on crystal meth?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought brakhage was a lousy critic. his criticism was often just romantic gush and typically revealed more about brakhage than whoever he was writing about. i encountered his notes on griffith, eisenstein, etc. in college and found them to be worthless except as a means of understanding brakhage.

lots of filmmakers were critics: dreyer, lindsay anderson, paul schrader, nagisa oshima, all the "cahiers" bunch (godard, rivette, rohmer, truffaut...) -- all talented directors. TONS of screenwriters were critics, like phillip dunne....

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

is it possible to be neither artist nor critic? would be a better question for ilx.

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

[stock Monty Python shot of old women applauding]

― brian nemtusak (sanlazaro), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 04:40 (twenty-two years ago)

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