Suffering

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So, is suffering relative or absolute? Does the middle-class househunter who's just been gazumped on their half-a-million pound townhouse feel as bad as the addict who can't afford his fix?

Do affluent, white, male westerners EVER have the right to complain about ANYTHING EVER?

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

do i not bleed if you prick me?

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Do affluent, white, male westerners EVER have the right to complain about ANYTHING EVER?

Penis size.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

They prolly feel bad, but they are left with options afterall, which I am sure would ease the pain.

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

also: the Blount/Jess/Q concept that being privileged in any way means that you have NO SAY in any argument and should lay down and die because you're not 4 REAL motherfucker

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

No.

(Apart from the fact that my back hurts a bit. And I'm slightly bored. But in the grand scheme of things.....)

― James Ball (James Ball), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

im a semi affluent white dude (by which i can afford some stuff but not everything i desire) and i would defend my right to whinge, complain and bitch about whatever the fuck i wanted until i was dead and buried, and even then i might try and squeak out some form of rebuke, complaining isnt a class issue its a right of passage

as for the degrees of suffering i would say if it hurts, it hurts

― james, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

What James said.

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

James or james?

― James Ball (James Ball), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

????? Blount and Jess are Americans, they *ARE* the problem! (sorry guys)

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, both James in their way. But james, mainly (sorry)

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

since we are continually dissatisfied and unhappy creatures i think that suffering and then complaining about it is pretty much our MO.

besides people have a right to hate their life as much as they want. we've all been cursed already by being born in the first place.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Also what james said except I'm not male. Everyone is entitled to tell me I can't complain, but I am entitled to tell them to fuck off.

All of us here have net access or can afford to pay for it by the hour, which already puts us in a tiny privileged minority globally. We COULD split hairs about who is poorer than who, or we could just enjoy/complain about our own lives as we see fit, and perhaps try to make those of others better.

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i wz going to say on the other thread that grumbling is only ever valid and non-annoying if it is ME DOING IT

then i didn't

but i shd have

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

but isnt it worth people telling you not to complain, just to give you something else to complain about it! hell i agree with james too!

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

We all whinge about all sorts of minor things on a day-to-day basis.

But on the big stuff there's a lot to be said for counting your blessings. And, yes, rich people do get ill, die, suffer etc. But I think they seriously underestimate quite how fucking lucky they(=we) are. As I said on the other thread, it's hard to imagine quite how stressful it is if you can't feed and clothe your kids properly.

― James Ball (James Ball), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I feel sorry for rich people just because someone is always telling them how fucking lucky they are. I'm sure they DO know. Some rich people are twats. Let's attack them for the twattishness, not the bank balance.

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

coming from a single parent family that struggled real hard to bring kids up properly and with dignity i really count my blessings and try not to complain about larger scale things - ie my position in life, my house, my livlihood etc b'cos i am xceptionally lucky BUT i will moan like a mother fucker if i see fit, when leeds lose i sulk and moan, if a pub has a shit selection man i'll moan, when walkers stop a ltd run or add rennet to crisps my god i'll bitch for weeks

― james, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

rich people: life is painful, boring, and pointless.
poor people: life is painful, terrifying, and pointless.

obv one is preferable to the other.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

rich people run the risk of being shafted by flashman

― james (james), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Everybody's mentioning 'kids', maybe the biological urge is at fault, or maybe they should be raised communally. As usual, the Khmer Rouge had all the answers!

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Most of them genuinely don't realise how lucky they are. That's why they still complain all the time.

(Rich, for the purposes of this argument = comfortably above the poverty line and I certianly include myself in that.)

(x-post)

― James Ball (James Ball), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

it depends who is listening, and what you want them to think of you

― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Suffering is relative to experience and conditioning shurely? Therefore, the white middle class etc etc probably does genuinely 'feel' like his world has caved in when Giles doesn't get accepted to Cambridge.

"Do affluent, white, male westerners EVER have the right to complain about ANYTHING EVER?"

This is a crazy question. Without the right or will to complain, what the fuck kind of a world would we live in - I mean it would be even worse than it is now for Chrissakes. Those with an eye on the crown are already making it harder and harder to raise a voice in protest - taking away the right to copmplain and protest via insertion of a moral code would be tantamount to banning free speech.

I know what you're trying to say Mark but removing any right on the grounds of skin colour or social status is a dangerous supposition.

― Alex K (Alex K), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

ie, there is nothing wrong with complaining abuot being gazumped on a half million pound house as long as you arent hoping for sympathy from your friends who could never even dream of such a thing, so it depends on your audience

― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

i think life sucks for everyone. rich people are just a lot closer to life not sucking than poor. but they have more time to ponder how their life sucks.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

doesnt this have an underlying supposition that money cures all evils....it dont

― james (james), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex K, you do know what I'm trying to say is that "Do affluent, white, male westerners EVER have the right to complain about ANYTHING EVER?" is a totally fucked up view. I totally agree with what you just said.

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

like if you complain abuot not being able to get xyz this week and having to settle for metely bcd again and how terrible it is, you're going to have to develop a thick skin when the peopel you are compaining too could never ever afford the mere bcd that you are 'settling' for.

perhaps this is about context

― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"but they have more time to ponder how their life sucks." No, their time is sucked up by the dollar (if they are workers rather than inheritors) - I think the reverse is true - they have less time to ponder just where they are ploughing their time and energy.

― Alex K (Alex K), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

It depends: Sometimes ppl do complain when there isn't much reason to and they do it to shift responsibility to someone else when they are the ones that can do something abt it.

Anyway, complain all you like but I may not listen to you.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

doesnt this have an underlying supposition that money cures all evils....it dont

though it is nice to be rich enough to utter this statement, i mean, how well do you think that would go down in most ordinary peoples houses?

― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i still think my solution is the best: i get to do the actual grumbling, and if you have a (so-called) problem you apply to me to complain on yr behalf (if i feel like it)

win-win!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

money doesn't cure all 'evils' but misery isn't an 'evil', more like a disease, who'd keep their ruptured appendix for sentimental reasons?

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

also: the Blount/Jess/Q concept that being privileged in any way means that you have NO SAY in any argument and should lay down and die because you're not 4 REAL motherfucker

!!!

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Fock - I have to leave this thread for a haircut. By the time I check back I want to see a workable solution to the world's ills in no more than 10 words.

― Alex K (Alex K), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

gareth - i am an ordinary person - in debt, living up to if not a little above there means but being well off doesnt stop the hurt inside (this is on the basis that you are complaining about a something truely valid)

i mean if you are complaining about pop idol then im not listening, if you are complaining about your mums illness then im not checking your wallet to see if you are a valid complainer

― james (james), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Then they all lez up? (5 words)

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I want to listen to mark saying the words '4REAL motherfucker' at the next FAP.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

hmm 10 words

"dont worry, be happy, smoke weed, love screwing, have a pal"

will 11 do

damn archel got there first - yep 5 words does it for me

― james (james), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

make suicide socially acceptable. (even laudable!) 6 words

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Sometimes I don't have enough money to pay the bills. This is a problem which I expect some people to have sympathy with (those about the same level of poverty as me), some not to consider very serious (those much poorer than me) and some not to understand at all (those richer than me).

But as james so rightly says, if I or any one of the above hypothetical people loses a loved one or gets ditched at the altar or becomes terminally, distinctions on the basis of class or income are no longer meaningful.

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

unless they can afford private treatment

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

well, from where im sitting, money cures evil. its just a bit rich for people to be sittnig on their wads complaining about how tough life is, if your money is causing such problems, well, give it to me, i'll have it

― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

If they are complaining ABOUT their money or its side effects, then yes gareth. If they are complaining because their mother has just died, well give them a break.

So private treatment can cure death now can it dave?

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

well, like i said, it is about context.

yes, private treatment can postpone death for some time i believe, i think thats one of the reasons people pay for it

― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

postpone != cure. are you all mad?

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Why would anybody fork out for it if they didn't think it would buy them some time at least? "Naw I'll just lie on this trolley in the corridor in my own shit for the next three weeks, it's inevitable anyway"

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, so if someone wealthy you know is diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, you're going to carefully not extend them as much sympathy as your poor friend who also has cancer?

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

http://members.cox.net/futurama/Show/s05ep01.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Considering some of the responses on this thread and the 'London' thread, most people's problems solved with 2 letters and 3 numbers - "RU-486"

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Re wealthy cancer person, course I'm going to be as nice to them as possible, they're doing up a will aren't they?

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

My dad was a refugee from a Third World country, which means I can rant self-indulgently about the lack of rocket salad in the Lewisham Tesco's all I want! RAH!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha, so it's just jealousy, dave. That explains a lot :)

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Yep, just like the poor afwicans!

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't the bottom-line here that complaining is obnoxious, no matter who's complaining? I hate this sentiment that everyone has a right to complain; it reminds me of the type of people who run around expecting "respect" and giving none out. While I agree once in a while it's necessary to vent, a person who is constantly complaining is only asking to be criticized and judged. Yes, affluent white male westerners have a right to complain, but that doesn't mean anyone is going to listen or care.

― Mandee, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

there's a difference between complaining and expressing one's distress. for example, one saying "oh, god , i just damaged my car or my girlfriend just left me, my life's a shit storm and i want to die" is just bitching and being over dramatic, and i cant stand that. then there's expressing distress. for instance, me pesonally, i'm a navy corpsman, an 8404, which means i'm trained to go with the marines in the field. recently, in training, i completely tore a ligament in my right knee. more recently, i was just diagnosed with epilepsy. out of the blue, i had three full blown seizures, which i can't even remember, but my first seizure left me with a compression fracture in my back, so i'm being discharged from the navy. i am not complaining, cuz i still have a rad family and relatively good health, i'm happy, its just my luck is a little bummer lately, but you'll still find a smile on my face.

― ryan t hoffman, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course, if you're a plumber the phrase "my life is a shitstorm" could be more apt

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I've done too much complaining here, in that i fit that white male affluent thing pretty well - but on the other hand, I've also been suffering from depression for ages, and that isn't feeling a bit down, it's suicidal agony and despair and it came closer to killing me than any of the dangerous illnesses that have had me rushed to hospital in the past. And now my eyesight has been deteriorating dramatically of late, and I fear going blind. And there was the time some months ago described in a thread called something like "I've had an intruder..."

But I think mostly I've not moaned too much of the time here, not I hope out of proportion, and I hope I've been sympathetic and supportive to others in some sort of proportion to how bad things are for them and how they feel. I haven't noticed anyone saying "Oh no, I can't afford a second polo pony" or anything like that here.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"I don't know what they want from me it's like the more money we come across the more problems we see."

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I always heard that line as "I'm all hung over..."

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

dave, the phrase about shitstorm being an apt plumber, that was kinda funny, ain't havin the absolute best day of my life, but your comment brought a smile to my face, thank ya.

― ryan t hoffman, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I understand that money doesn't buy away all your problems and that rich people can be in just as much pain/frustration/depression, etc as anyone else as they are people. However, in my personal life, it is sometimes harder for me to empathize with my uncle for example. He and his family live in a VERY nice house in a VERY nice neighborhood in Dallas. It is fancy shmancy. He works as a lawyer and I'm sure he deserves the money he brings in. He's always traveling for work. Anyway, his company's stock recently plumeted and he's making less comission than he was before, so he's going through a financial struggle. But, at the same time, they're doing VERY well. They're just struggling to maintain their previous level of spending. It's hard for me to see this as some big family crisis, but then again I'm not in his shoes...

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

well put, sarah

― ryan t hoffman, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's all relative, and it can function on a societal level, too. Do New Yorkers not have the right to feel like they've suffered because of the WTC bombings since those in Jerusalem have gone through much more? Sure, Jerusalites (?) can accuse NYers of being whiny and 'not knowing what real tragedy' is like or something, but that doesn't mean both aren't experiencing an equal amount of suffering. It could--COULD--even be that Jerusalites are so used to bombings and turmoil that they experience less duress during such events than NYers.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone only really feels their own suffering (and overspill suffering of those they care about). so me losing my job is going to feel worse to me than 100 people i will never know currently dying somewhere. how i want to intellectualize it or how i 'should' feel about or if someone thinks i'm allowed to complain about it is another matter.

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

So...

― Alex K (Alex K), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"white person" does not necessarily = "yuppy." and one person's "yuppy" (of whatever color) = another person's pissant.

― Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:08 (twenty-two years ago)

l-school friend: i work for big firm Dewey Cheatem and Howe. they make me work 12 hour days and weekends!

me to l-school friend: i work for No-One Knows Us or Gives a Fuck If They Did. at least you get a six-figure check. and i told you that making law review wasn't everything it's cracked up to be!

― Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Archel was onto something up thread - only five words too. How about "Be like Fonze" - that might sort a lot of shit out.

― Alex K (Alex K), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

By the way, Mark C, I think in retrospect I had completely the wrong end of that stick you were waving about (hem-hem). Still, having seen that you agreed with me, I think I can now say with surity that I wholeheartedly agree with you. What is it that we are agreeing on exactly?

― Alex K (Alex K), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm trying to think of the last time I truly felt I was suffering - maybe it was the loss of a family member, although to be honest, it wasn't a huge surprise when it happened and though it was cruel, it wasn't anything you don't expect from this life.

So I was in pieces sure, but I didn't feel I was suffering through it - is that because there has to be an element of, well, persecution in order to feel that one is suffering? Is suffering a protracted experience, the gradual culmination of numerous setbacks. Although, I mean, I suppose a single moment could also provoke great suffering as well...

― Alex K (Alex K), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:44 (twenty-two years ago)

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