racist/sexist/whatever jokes told "ironically"

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Does anyone have an example of this that isn't totally dud?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Not that can be mentioned on ILX i.e. a public forum. File Under "Within Confines of Close Friends That Know Far Better And Just Act Retarded Sometimes"

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

(even then, i'm not sure this isn't totally dud anyway, but i've known little who can properly deny ever having laughed at ironic racist jokes at some point in his/her life)

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Are these jokes met with ironic laughter?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps when they're at your own expense? I make half-Chinese jokes once in a while that are intended ironically.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

ironic laughter is implied, I believe. (dear god, i hope)

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Sometimes these jokes are funny and can be cathartic without reinforcing any stereotypes and so on. But I wouldn't make any blanket recommendations. Blah blah blah many kinds of irony blah blah blah irony doesn't preclude sincerity blah blah blah.

Richard Pryor dabbled in this kind of thing, no?

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

no one is going to give an example to the hounds though are they?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:34 (twenty-one years ago)

South Park to thread.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Does it count if you're a member of the group in question? I've heard more Irish jokes from Boston Irish than I have any other kind of racist jokes from anyone else.

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I think this sort of thing can get very dangerous in a text-only place like ILX where context is fast and loose.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

...like an underage Thai prostitute.

There, happy Ronan?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

horace otm. context is key.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Are we talking about comedians who do this, like Don Rickles or Sarah Silverman, or people who say shit just to be shocking? I think in the case of the former, the jokes are really about racism, although that flies over a lot of people's heads.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

it's interesting when comedians start with a racial joke that's actually extremely funny (they exist!) and then go on to essentially dissect why it is we find it funny (without being especially pedantic).

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry the former is more what I'm talking about, but maybe the latter, too, I'm not sure. When you say something racist or sexist with a tone and a look that implies you're making fun of the sentiment.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

but the more interesting thing is if the punchline still packs a punch...if we still have access to the part of the joke that makes it a funny, even if we "know better."

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

how is that "more interesting," since it's exactly what i'm talking about?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

alright, i'll bite:

my group of friends (half guys, half girls) in university used to refer to any female cursory to our group as a "b-road" (ie. 'did you see the b-road that jeff brought home?' or 'this one b-road in my class is a total idiot...' etc)

i hasten to add that the girls used it more often than the guys, that it was always with a veneer of self-reflexiveness, and that it usually got a laugh...

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

("bee-rod")

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:12 (twenty-one years ago)

"bee-road" would have been funnier, especially if they weren't well surfaced.

― RJG (RJG), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Tracer Hand I apologize, I realized as soon as I hit "submit" that the "more interesting" part was wrong.

What I meant was that whatever gestures the person uses to put distance between him/herself and the joke, the fact that people can still find it funny speaks volumes. Actually both aspects of that circumstance are equally interesting. I was being typically ILsnarky.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

My friends and I have long made racist jokes at each other's expense. You'd be surprised at the vast array of insults you can come up with when you have a Mexican, a Jew, a Vietcong... er... person of Vietnamese descent, a white boy, and a black guy in the same room. All in good fun. And no one is spared, so we're all even.

For instance, I'm trailer trash. It's true, you know.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:18 (twenty-one years ago)

i thought the point of rehearsing these jokes is measuring the distance b/t yourself and the stereotype, or the person who would hold the stereotype.

the jokes that people tell at their own expense are not necessarily any more true than the jokes at their expense that are told by others.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)

exactly.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

What about PC people who get mad when you tell jokes about your own ethnic group? That irritates me more than anything.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)

my boss to thread.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate people who think that being from a particular ethnic group makes anything they say about it OK. Why is it all right for them to say it but not someone else who doesn't have the same skin colour? Racists.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It's classic when used as a means of looking at the particular prejudice in question. Chris Rock I think is VERY good with this; making a joke that should be offensive (and prob'ly is to others) but the joke being something with a valid sociological weight to it, and something not told out of sheer grasping-hoping-something-might-be-funny-ness, but more like ATTACKING something he sees with humor, y'know?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, what's with all these black people making jokes about white people?

[crosspost]

― RJG (RJG), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

"Women be shoppin!" to thread.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't imagine how telling racist/sexist/whatever jokes "ironically" could be anything but dud. the older i get, the more sure i am that some things should just not be fucked with (even in an "ironic" or "tongue-in-cheek" way), because there are too many asshats who catch on (assuming the racism/sexism/etc really is ironic or tongue-in-cheek).

― Tad (llamasfur), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:16 (twenty-one years ago)

mark s and his "there are no such thing as jokes" theory to thread

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

"fail" to catch on, i meant

― Tad (llamasfur), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

but what does "catching on" change about anything? if your point is that racism is bad, or laughable, or stupid, why not crack a joke at the expense of racists, or if making up a new joke on the spot is beyond you just say "this type of racism is stupid/laughable" etc...

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, to soak up the laughs of the joke, the same laughs that the "bona-fide" racist receives, while disowning the sentiment behind it, smells of flat-out hypocrisy

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

In the type of comedy I'm thinking of, the comedian is actually playing a character - usually someone really awful, so it's like they're confessing to sins they may or may not have, but they are accepting the guilt for it. Actually, now that I think about it, an awful lot of comedy is like that - for example, slapstick.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

The writers of 'All in the Family' to thread.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

TRANSCRIPT (EXCERPT) Obscenity Trial, January 12, 1965, "A Book Named Naked Lunch by William S. Burroughs" Boston Superior Court before Judge J. Hudson.

ALLEN GINSBERG: Well, the section goes on, I think, 169 to 177. It's a long monologue by a Southern Sheriff or County Clerk, on page 177, at the end, beginning with: "The Clerk looked at the card suspiciously: 'You don't look like a bone feed mast-fed Razor Back to me.... What you think about the Jeeeeews . . .?"

"Well, Mr. Anker, you know yourself all a Jew wants to do is doodle a Christian girl.... One of these days we'll cut the rest of it off."

THE COURT: What page are you on now?

GINSBERG: Page 177. It's very funny actually.

THE COURT: Well, let me ask you this: Is that sentence offensive, grossly offensive to you?

GINSBERG: I am Jewish; and I should be offended. What Burroughs is doing, he is parodying this monster; he is parodying this anti-semite.

THE COURT: It is not offensive to you ?

GINSBERG: No. Burroughs is defending the Jews here. Don't you realize he is making a parody of the monstrous speech and thought processes of a red-necked Southern, hate-filled type, who hates everybody, Jews, Negroes, Northerners. Burroughs is taking a very moral position, like defending the good here, I think.

― Allen Ginsberg, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:10 (twenty-one years ago)

also, are you using the term "ironic" in its traditional sense (describing a literary/rhetorical technique) or in the contemporary sense of "insincere"?

― Allen Ginsberg, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

george jefferson to thread

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Q: When does a black person become a nigger?
A: As soon as they leave the room.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

For sale in an Italian newspaper:

Genuine World War II rifle, only dropped once.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

That highlights the key difference here - racist jokes told in a way that just tries to distance the teller from it, as some sort of bit of fun, are very dud indeed. Jokes highlighting and mocking racism and racists are fine. Whether they are funny is of course another matter.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

David Allan Coe to thread

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Martin, don't people often laugh at sick/offensive/troubling things IN SPITE OF the reasonable, ethically engaged parts of themselves?

or to put it another way, when i testified at the obscenity trial (see above) do you think i was being insincere when i said i found the jew joke funny?

is it somehow threatening to admit that something offensive can also strike us as funny?

― Allen Ginsberg, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you threatening me???

― Cornholio (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Senor Beavis, donde esta tu hall pass?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 21:09 (twenty-one years ago)

First, AG, I would say that testimony made the point that that was someone describing racism, condemning it, not just enjoying it while using irony as an attempt to make it acceptable. Secondly, whether or not the jokes are funny can be a separate point entirely - I don't find much funny and racist, but it's certainly not impossible.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 9 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Right, *I* know I'm not a racist and my friends know I'm not, so I would feel comfortable telling one. I can't remember telling racist jokes per se, but I parody racism/sexism often. If someone doesn't know me well, they may take me seriously--as has happened on ILE. But y'know, that still doesn't make me a racist or insensitive or what have you. It's just a communication problem.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 07:20 (twenty-one years ago)

One should definitely be careful when in a new environment or when dealing with people who don't know you that well. I've witnessed situations where people have taken certain things said between intimates completely the wrong way.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 07:37 (twenty-one years ago)

If someone doesn't know me well, they may take me seriously--as has happened on ILE.

Actually, this has ONLY happened on ILE, as I assumed people would know I was joking. IRL I'm much more careful.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 07:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I've guiltily laughed at a few offensive jokes not because "it's about my own group(s) so it's okay" or because they were told with any sort of irony, but because I had to acknowledge the wit of the punchline, that was based on [what seemed at the time to be] some sort of strangely ingenious wordplay .

― Poppy (poppy), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 07:54 (twenty-one years ago)

polacks are indeed very dumb.

― Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:16 (twenty-one years ago)

― mark p (Mark P), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:36 (twenty-one years ago)

isn't the thing that sometimes you laugh at the wit of a joke rather than anything else? same way you listen to eminem or whatever?

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Modern-day minstrelry.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:56 (twenty-one years ago)

for a moment up there i really thought that allen ginsburg had joined us. i remembered his amazing performance in dublin years back and was filled with delight. then i remembered that he is dead.

― angela (angela), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

"Right, *I* know I'm not a racist and my friends know I'm not, so I would feel comfortable telling one. I can't remember telling racist jokes per se, but I parody racism/sexism often. If someone doesn't know me well, they may take me seriously--as has happened on ILE. But y'know, that still doesn't make me a racist or insensitive or what have you. It's just a communication problem."

Oops, so was your "homosexuality ain't natural" thread a very, very long and offensive (to me at least - straight though many of my best friends are queer etc. etc.) "joke"? Cos I agree with what you're saying above, but if that instance was an hilarious quip, don't you think you got it pretty wrong in this context?

If it wasn't a joke, um, well.

― Mark C (Mark C), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, so theres a white guy, a black guy and a jew walking down the road. They find a lamp, rub it, a genie appears, and he gives the three men one wish each.

The jew steps up first. "I wish that myself and all my jewish cousins could return to Israel and exist in peace and harmony with the rest of the world." Straight away, he disappears, and all the jews appear in Israel.

The blaxk guy steps up next. "I wish myself and all my brothers and sisters throughout the world could return to Africa, and we could live in peace and harmony for the rest of our days." And all the black people disappear and reappear in Africa.

The white guy steps up next, and asks the genie a few questions.

"Okay, let me get this straight. All the jews are in Israel?"

"Yes," says the Genie.

"And all the blacks are in Africa?"

"Yes," says the Genie.

"Fair 'nuf, I'll have a pint, cheers!"

----------------------------------------------------------
I'm a 23yr old white guy living in England.

This joke - C/D?

(I would THINK it's classic, because its taking down racism, but I'm not sure. Seek clarification)

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

That joke is absolutely classic because it isn't funny unless you're laughing at the white guy's ignorant attitude.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 10:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think you--or many others--understood what I was saying in that thread Mark C, mostly due to my inarticulateness. (I'm not about to get into it again)
It actually exhibits my point about knowing that *I* am not homophobic, so I felt I could talk about things without having to defend myself against accusations of being a homophobe. Nobody--besides Dan I think--could interpret what I was saying outside of a homophobic contest.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 18:30 (twenty-one years ago)

"I am not a homophobe, therefore I can say homophobic things" doesn't work for me.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 18:37 (twenty-one years ago)

"I'm not a homophobe, so I can interpret things homophobically"
--Tracer Hand

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Who on ILX would win a homophobic contest? Would the prize be tickets to a pro-wrestling match?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 18:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't get it, did I say that somewhere?

btw if there were a homophobic contest I think that I would definitely like to be left outside of it! :P

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Tracer, I meant you interpreted what I was saying to be homophobic--you were (still are) absolutely sure it was homophobic--even though I repeatedly said it wasn't and I had nothing against homosexuals. I made the mistake of using language that is often used by homophobes, people focused on that language and ignored everything else.

Thus this statement: "I am not a homophobe, therefore I can say homophobic things" doesn't work for me." doesn't apply to me since I never said homophobic things. They were interpreted as being homophobic because of my inarticulateness and people being primed to attack homophobia.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't even remember what your view was that seemed homophobic but I bet it still does.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahaha!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure it does seem so.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

it makes me uncomfortable when people state outright "i am not an [x] therefore i can [y]".... i don't think of racism or homophobia as something you definitely have or don't have. they are tendencies that i think most people sympathize with to some degree, more or less at different times. i'm not usually one to make racist/sexist/etc. jokes but if i did i wouldn't presume that i'm entitled to do so because of some unquestioned moral purity.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 03:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that doing this among friends who know one another, with irony, we're all cool blah blah, serves as a kind of confession to each other that a. we all know this shit, it's still in the culture and we carry it in us and b. the power of a well-made joke trumps our sense of morality or propriety. a laugh is a laugh.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:28 (twenty-one years ago)

yes! on both counts.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:44 (twenty-one years ago)

It's just words. If someone was hurt by them--or I thought they may be--I wouldn't do it. Fact is, I don't take myself seriously so I don't expect others to and am taken aback when they do.
(glad I made you uncomfortable, am ;-))(btw, there's a difference between knowing you're not racist/homophobic/sexist and thinking you're morally pure)

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 05:48 (twenty-one years ago)

the first step toward fixing a problem is...

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 05:52 (twenty-one years ago)

being told by sanctimonious others that one exists?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 05:57 (twenty-one years ago)

scotch tape?

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 28 August 2003 05:58 (twenty-one years ago)

(doh xp)

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 28 August 2003 05:58 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe it's just me, but i am not confident enough to say i am free of racism, homophobia, and sexism. how could i be, living in this world?

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 05:59 (twenty-one years ago)

also isn't my position sort of the opposite of sanctimony? (i'm probably guilty of other things however.)

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:01 (twenty-one years ago)

it's just you

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:01 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, gandhi.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:02 (twenty-one years ago)

wait, how could gandhi be morally pure, living in this crazy world as he did?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Only on ILE could you be looked down on for claiming to have no racist inclinations.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:05 (twenty-one years ago)

actually i'm sure the real gandhi had his issues. i was invoking the "gandhi" of popular myth, the faultness one.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:08 (twenty-one years ago)

shall i save a space for you on this mountaintop?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:10 (twenty-one years ago)

only if you dip your bald head in oil and rub it all over myHEY HEY!!

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:18 (twenty-one years ago)

That's creepy enough without me even having to employ the 'head' double-entendre.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:23 (twenty-one years ago)

you're drifting into jess-sized levels in your use of the word 'creepy;

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:24 (twenty-one years ago)

a boy can dream

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 06:28 (twenty-one years ago)

''It's just words.''

moron.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 28 August 2003 07:03 (twenty-one years ago)

See, that was just a word. It doesn't make me a moron.(but i'm sure you'll tell me what does)
Have a nice day.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 07:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"It's just words" when there's no corresponding thought or action behind them. See also: politicians
Obviously, when hateful words match someone's thoughts they can be more than 'just words'. This is why it's necessary to be around people who have a sense of what's going on in your head.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 07:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Oops, even if your points were not made through homophobic intent (which I'm quite happy to accept) or ignorance (which I think may have been a part of it), it was your bloody-minded persistence which at best was wilful pedantry and at worst makes it very hard to take what you're saying now at face value.

You must also have seen how people would react to that - my deep love for Chris Piuma derived from how he tried everything in his power to rationally and reasonably persuade you that what you were saying was far from being an unarguable truth. Didn't you think it irresponsible to risk upping the heckles of so many people you don't know? Weren't you *just a bit* toying with the politically correct BUT WELL-INTENTIONED AND SINCERE views of people who were annoyed or upset by your constant refusal to accept a different view?

Anyway, it doesn't matter now, but for a long time I stewed on that thread.

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 28 August 2003 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the main problem with that thread was that you had a group of people whose beliefs all fell along the same continuum arguing at different points along that continuum as if they were in deep, bitter opposition with each other.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 28 August 2003 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha - Oops = a really really dull Momus and this thread is like some kind of hyper-lame version of the Vice thread.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 28 August 2003 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 28 August 2003 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

i wonder at what age does "ironic" racist/sexist/whatever jokes start. gradeschool? earlier? depends on the parents?
(MLK march on washington 40th anniv. today btw.)

― kephm, Thursday, 28 August 2003 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, I only really mean the last third of this thread.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 28 August 2003 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

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