A socialist Margaret Thatcher?

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I think it's fair to say that no matter what happens with regard to the Hutton inquiry, Blair has been badly damaged by the events of the past 6 months.

I think of him as being like Heath, a pragmatic, consensus politician. Now the new Labour consensus doesn't appear to be quite as robust as it was 6 or even 2 years ago. He reminds me a lot of Heath who carried on, despite lacking the support of a large section of his party, the electorate and crucially the unions. Heath's failure in '73 and in the two subsequent elections of course set the conditions for Thatcher to take over and blow the postwar consensus out of the water.

Something interesting one of the union leaders (Bob Crow?) said in yesterday's Telegraph was that Thatcher was a grassroots politician. Whatever Blair is, he's not a grassroots politician. One of the criticisms I've heard levelled against him a few times recently, from both left and right, is that he doesn't believe in anything.


So, could a Labour equivalent of Thatcher successfully challenge for the leadership and wrench the party back to it's core values? Or are the problems suurounding Blair overstated sne his tenure will be a lot longer than his opponents wish for or expect.

Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 5 September 2003 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely Thatcher essentially wrenched Conservatism AWAY from a lot of its core values?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 5 September 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

yes i'm a bit dubious abt the concept of "core labour values" as something easily or obviously identified (one of the things the 80s tories identified was that they could split young working class voters from their parents' world-view — but one of the things they didn't realise was that the voters they had built then had cultural loyalty to no one...)

i doubt that an old-form labour party is any more achievable than an old-form tory party

mark s (mark s), Friday, 5 September 2003 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

he doesn't believe in anything

what do you/they mean?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 5 September 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Blair is a 19th century liberal just like Thatcher.

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 September 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

well, hmmm, except thatcher wz very anti state-centralist social amelioration, which 19th-c libs were very pro

mark s (mark s), Friday, 5 September 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Thatch was into a free economy and a strong state - it was a major contradiction in her outlook. But people have made her ideological after the fact; she had key principles but the contradictions between those never bothered her. Attempts to make a coherent set of political choices out of it will more likely fail.

Dave B (daveb), Friday, 5 September 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

what do you/they mean?

I don't believe he doesn't lack beliefs, but unlike Thatcher he'll be more likely come to a compromise rather than stick dogmatically to an ideology. The most surprising and dissapointing things about his pro-war stance is that he held it so rigidly in face of intense criticism. Before he'd fudge things for fear of alienating the new (as in first time) Labour voters. If he'd shown the same fibre over things such as clause 18 or foxhunting as he has over Iraq, he'd be thought of as a truly reforming leader and nobody would be talking about him as a spent force.

Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 5 September 2003 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

He's shown a similarly rigid stance about various backdoor privatisations in the face of opposition from the unions and around a third of the Labour party- there's some people he's gone out of his way to alienate.

Myron Kosloff, Friday, 5 September 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't believe he doesn't lack beliefs, but unlike Thatcher he'll be more likely come to a compromise rather than stick dogmatically to an ideology.

Sounds like a case of he's "damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't": either he's too stiff and unwilling to compromise (ie. with the unions) or he's seen to compromise too much. Isn't the idea of a politician to come to the best solution that he/she can make? (I can't stand most of them, but I do know that much.

I agree, he could have done better which the Hutton enquiry. However, he knows he isn't Labour's golden hope anymore. Perhaps he is just trying to get one of his policies approved before leaving office?

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Saturday, 6 September 2003 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with Matt and Mark here; the Labour Party's equivalent of Thatcher (radical individualist, extremely pro-free-market while also being strongly Christian-moralistic and not seeing the contradictions, disdainful of traditions associated with *both* major parties, very pro-US especially in its military ventures etc etc) has already happened - it was/is Blair. someone who took the Labour Party back to its "roots" (in the cliched sense) at a time when they are, like it or not, fading further and further into history as more and more manufacturing jobs ebb away, might be more comparable to the great Tory mistake of appointing an aristocratic leader at the *precise moment* of Beatlemania / "white heat of technology", or perhaps to the Tories appointing a landowning / protectionist leader as public opinion was swinging against the Corn Laws (my knowledge of that era is hardly as detailed as it should be!).

as with many others, I suspect, the whole thing surrounding Blair's involvement in the Iraq war (and the way he has stuck to his guns, as Billy says) has made me cynical and disheartened in a way I could hardly have envisaged a few years ago. in some ways though Blair's central fault (ie joining a war which was fought, among many other reasons, because of US resentment that Iraq was trading in euros not dollars, and still not seeing how this might impair Britain's immediate ability to be fully accepted members of the eurozone) is the fault of much of British culture and society since PoMo took over: the belief that it is possible and/or desirable to square what would once have been regarded as unsquarable circles.

in the end Blair / NuLab simply reflects its era for better or worse. he himself has "cultural loyalty to no one" (one of the best ever phrases to define what Britain is like Now and what it definitively *wasn't* like Then). we're stuck with politicians like him unless Britain makes a radical turn back to an earlier socio-cultural model; our best bet in my view is a less pro-US, less pro-war and more euro-friendly version of the same thing. whoever it may be, a "British Gerhard Schroder" (ie quasi-Blairite but more Americosceptic) is achievable, I think, *and* I'd generally agree with it; a "new Attlee" or "new Macmillan" is thoroughly unachievable, whatever soft spot my traditionalist side would have for it.

robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 7 September 2003 07:27 (twenty-two years ago)

edit to the above - I don't *know* whether or not the Tories appointed a landowning / protectionist leader as public opinion was swinging against the Corn Laws, I was just speculating on what it might have been if they did do that - a kind of 19th-century Alec Douglas-Home situation. I do know that, when the Peelite free-trade Tories had joined up with the Whigs to form the 19th-century Liberals (the equivalent won't happen now, whatever some of us may have suspected for a while when Portillo didn't get the Tory leadership), because the Lib Dems have gone too far to the left for Portillista liking under the SDP / Owen / Jenkins influence), some of the old-landed-class types left in the Tory party wanted to rename it the "Country Party" or even the "Protectionist Party". they didn't succeed, because for the Tories then, as for most of their history, middle-ground electability was the highest priority; Blair only won two such vast landslides because the Tories could no longer see where to find that quality, or how to find it, or even what it was.

robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 7 September 2003 07:33 (twenty-two years ago)

in fact reading that again I think the "British Gerhard Schroder" thing is quite close to what many of us initially hoped Blair would be like, ie a European leadership that is actually achievable in Britain in a way that the French model is not. the most bitterly shattered hope I ever had in my life, pretty much, was that Blair would not be as close to a Republican president as he was to Clinton.

robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 7 September 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

A socialist Margaret Thatcher?

= A red herring with whipped cream dressing?

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Sunday, 7 September 2003 12:01 (twenty-two years ago)

because of US resentment that Iraq was trading in euros not dollars

i was about to say this was absurd but then googled and found it a rather popular conspiracy theory although all stories seem to quote only one source- a mr. william clark who does not seem to posess any expertise on the subject at all. But he does have an aol mailing address and an inability to spell excerpt. a weakened dollar has already hurt europe and japan more than the us, the us economy is larger than the next three biggest economies combined so it could buy all of the excess dollars and not suffer any consequences. trading in dollars is safe, no one is forced to do it, just that since wwii the us has been the historical safe haven.

keith (keithmcl), Sunday, 7 September 2003 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

inability to spell excerpt = he is a communist

mark s (mark s), Monday, 8 September 2003 07:46 (twenty-two years ago)

That's the excerption that proves the rule.

Tim (Tim), Monday, 8 September 2003 08:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Excerpt it maybe doesn't...

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 8 September 2003 08:03 (twenty-two years ago)

'socialist Margaret Thatcher' = P. Pot, surely? ("There is no such thing as individuals or their families - ONLY society!")

dave q, Monday, 8 September 2003 09:10 (twenty-two years ago)


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