Why do men fetishize lesbians?

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Why is it such a pervasive male fantasy? My interpretation of it is that men like to see women "in action," yet don't want to risk seeing a naked man. Thus, h0t g1rl 0n g1rl @c+10n!!!1 (And, hopefully, no googlers.) Personally, though, it's never done anything for me. Any thoughts?

― Prude (Prude), Sunday, 7 September 2003 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Women are beautiful. Two women are twice the beautiful. I think it's usually about that simple.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

lesbians have never been a fetish/fantasy of mine. i actually don't get it at all really. but then i'm burned out on just about every last bit of standard porno schtick so i'm probably not the best person to ask

― the surface noise (electricsound), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually don't like lesbian porn unless there's some sort of penis, even if it's artificial, for me to sympathize with.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

if you're talking strictly sexually, I'd go w/Kenan's answer (both of them). if you're talking non-sexually, well, at the risk of sounding simplistic (haha, a Matos first!) I'd say they tend to be generally about fifty times cooler than most people. in my experience, at least. plus you can ogle women together, which is way more fun than doing so w/other guys.

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2003/08/27/lesbo/index.html

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Prude's pretty OTM with his first comment.

I think it arose because homosexuality was still somewhat taboo. And porn is supposedly about challenging taboos. But of course very few het males - the main consumers of porn - would watch two males getting it on, for fear of being called a "fag", hence the popularity of female-on-female.

When I first encountered porn as a teen, yeah, lesbian stuff was a total turn-on. Now, I can't really get into it. Well, ok, I won't say I "can't" get into it; but my overwhelming reaction is kind of "meh".

I think that's probably because it always seems so contrived (although, yes, I am aware that a large number of het female porn stars are in fact bi/lesbian).

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Prude's way off-base (as mentioned in that Salon article). If there were an aversion to seeing naked men in porn, there'd be a lot less out there. And, as noted by Kenan, even when no physical penis is present, there's a stand-in of some sort, occasionally blue and shaped like a dolphin.

(Using a species known for gang-rape as a sex toy... woah.)

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not a subscriber to Salon, so I couldn't read the rest of the article. Can someone sum it up?

― Prude (Prude), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:17 (twenty-two years ago)

you don't have to subscribe--just click the "here" that's highlighted in the middle box below the piece, sit through a commercial, and it's yours for the reading

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Try the free day pass. I think it's just a two or three-page ad from the ACLU today.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Lesbian porn where the women look uncomfortable and almost pained is just horrible, and unfortunately is in the majority. There is some good lesbian porn where it appears the women involved seem really into what they're doing, and that's pretty satisfying. As was said before, women are beautiful, and seeing them get off on each other is always going to be a turn-on.

― Andrew (enneff), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

little to add to what kenan said ... 'cept there are 2 drop dead nekkid women eating each others' pussies and loving it. what else would a horny guy want?

― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:20 (twenty-two years ago)

hmmm.... whatever my reservations, I've never seen any lesbian porn where the women appeared "pained" ??

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i've never given much thought to this "fetish" as it actually exists b/c honestly i've never encountered it except as a k-tiresome meme on tv shows and movies,where it seems rather despicable.

― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

forget about porn or even sex. I crush out on real-life lesbians ALL THE FUCKING TIME and I'm getting kind of sick of it. (I actually thought that's what this thread might be about.) obviously living in Seattle doesn't help there, eh?

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't see how it's despicable. To a large extent, per Tad and Kenan's observations, it's just a natural result of finding women (in general) attractive.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:27 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I take Amateurist's point. It's like, you'll be watching "Home Improvement" or something and Tim frickin' Toolman will make some idiotic joke about watching his wife in bed together with the wife of that ugly bearded dude he works with, and the laugh track will rise up, and hoo-hah isn't THAT fucking funny?!

It's just so fucking lame and banal.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:32 (twenty-two years ago)

yes yes yes it is

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I really doubt most straight men would be turned on by real lesbians. I mean, would anyone have wanted to see me and my kind of overweight girlfriend get it on with an odd-colored double dildo harnessed by tight whiteys? probably not. . .

― Texas, Biyatch! (thatgirl), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Women are beautiful. Two women are twice the beautiful. I think it's usually about that simple.

I'm not a man, but I agree with this nevertheless.

― luna (luna.c), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I crush out on real-life lesbians ALL THE FUCKING TIME and I'm getting kind of sick of it

you and me both. i never knew liking chubby short haired girls (yes yes generalisation ahoy) would be a bad thing..

― the surface noise (electricsound), Sunday, 7 September 2003 05:38 (twenty-two years ago)

plenty of bi men dig the whole lesbian schtick, so i don't think its inherently to do with heterosexuality.

I'd say they tend to be generally about fifty times cooler than most people

yeah that is a dumb generalisation, i can think of some appalling dykes.

its dumb to fetishize lesbians, but you know, it doesn't bother me, mostly cos my sex life is my business. the only issue i have is how the fetishization of a certain kind of lesbian (the lipstick lesbian, obv) serves to make other kinds of lesbians invisible and voiceless.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

di's right ... lesbo porno isn't exactly teeming with mullethead diesel-dyke types (which have been what a good chunk of the IRL lesbians have been and not the lipstick type).

― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

let me amend that then Lurex (because, um, God knows you're right)--the lesbians I'm friends with are 50x cooler than most people. and thanks for catching me on that one.

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

(should've written what I'd actually meant there, what an obvious mistake on my part.)

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos can I start hanging out with you please?

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Me too?

― luna (luna.c), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:29 (twenty-two years ago)

whatever for?

hey--you just want me for my lesbians! HEY!

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Nuh-uh - 'cos I dig you.

― luna (luna.c), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:37 (twenty-two years ago)

awww. never mind then. sure, come up to Seattle!

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:38 (twenty-two years ago)

oh wait--you're drunk again, aren't you?

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I've only had one beer, and that was at 9:00. So nope.

― luna (luna.c), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, would anyone have wanted to see me and my kind of overweight girlfriend get it on with an odd-colored double dildo harnessed by tight whiteys?

Bring it on.

― Andrew (enneff), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm honest ... i wanna meet you F2F just to get to know the lesbians!

― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

then again, yer in seattle which isn't that far from olympia ... which may mean that they're kathleen hanna-fan lesbians. that wouldn't be at all cool.

― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:40 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, ok then. sorry to cast aspersions on your character, Luna. :-)

Tad--I'm afraid you're just going to have to out and find cool friends of your own. (Jesus Christ, I sound like Andrew W.K.!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:41 (twenty-two years ago)

All is forgiven.

― luna (luna.c), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:42 (twenty-two years ago)

that is totally cool, because everyone is awesome, man.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Word, yo.

― luna (luna.c), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:45 (twenty-two years ago)

seattle is turning MM into a hippie!

― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:46 (twenty-two years ago)

haha "turning"

― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't shaved in a month and a half! and I'm eating more granola than ever!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:49 (twenty-two years ago)

PARRRRTY!!!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 7 September 2003 06:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Has anyone else ever read a biography of Hitler and found a lot of similarities between him and themselves? eg - "Though seemingly repelled by sex, Hitler was at the same time fascinated by it. He discussed sexual matters quite often in lengthy talks late at night with Gustl, regaling him, wrote Kubizek, on the need for sexual purity to protect what he grandly called the 'flame of life'; explaining to his naive friend, following a brief encounter with a businessman who invited them to a meal, about homosexuality; and ranting about prostitution and moral decadence". Same!

― m.s (m .s), Sunday, 7 September 2003 07:27 (twenty-two years ago)

no actually I relate more to the other guy, I'm ALWAYS having to listen to my friends whinge on about crap like that.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 7 September 2003 08:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I've thought about this on occasion and wondered why lesbian porn is by default more acceptable than gay, or het porn. Why is this? Even women are often happier to look at naked women than guys (well, not always but it seems that way). And then I thought about how the media in general (not just in porn) fetishizes the female form, even in womens magazines, so perhaps it is partly a conditioning thing - we've all been surrounded by women as sexual objects as a standard, but not so much guys.

I could be WAY off base, but thats a conclusion I came to.

― Trayce (trayce), Sunday, 7 September 2003 08:23 (twenty-two years ago)

women don't seem to be as turned on by two guys getting it on as men are by two women getting it on. i hate be essentialist, but what's going on to otherwise explain this difference? it can't entirely be cultural, or is it?

― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 7 September 2003 08:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I think if society has evolved to the extent that something as banal as wearing shoes doing sex is exciting, lesbians are not far off the radar.

― Lara (Lara), Sunday, 7 September 2003 09:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I think if society has evolved to the extent that something as banal as wearing shoes during sex is exciting, lesbians are not far off the radar.

― Lara (Lara), Sunday, 7 September 2003 09:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 53 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Me and Carrie share some historicism

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Ideals are unreal. point of fact. It's all fantasy. My ideal girls are always straight and ideal boys are alwasy assholes. :(

― Texas, Biyatch! (thatgirl), Monday, 8 September 2003 06:40 (twenty-two years ago)

There are straight women?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 8 September 2003 06:52 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread just died?

― Mark C (Mark C), Monday, 8 September 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(N. stole my font. Trebuchet MS.)

― David. (Cozen), Monday, 8 September 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Tabbed browsing is classic for the morning post-8am internet raid: log onto e-mail and ilx, snowdrop+click all the threads you want in tabs, log off. Minimum money wasted.

― David. (Cozen), Monday, 8 September 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Women are better-looking than men. Ergo, two women is more pleasant to look at than a man and a woman. (The preceeding may be atrocious logic.)

Lesbian porn where the women look uncomfortable and almost pained is just horrible, and unfortunately is in the majority.

Uncomfortable lesbian porn: C/D?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 September 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Women are better-looking than men. Ergo, two women is more pleasant to look at than a man and a woman.

Depends on the women or men in question.

In the meantime, based on this thread the ideal porn movie would feature two dykey women -- a desktop publisher and a proofreader -- who get together while discussing fonts.

"Please don't take this the wrong way, but I really like your x-height."

"Ohhh...give it to me sans serif...please!"

― j.lu (j.lu), Monday, 8 September 2003 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"ooooh, drop cap just there."

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 8 September 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I would so pay money to see that porno.

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 8 September 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Because they have one more thing in common.

― earlnash, Monday, 8 September 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Vaginas!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 September 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Men fetishize lesbians because of the haircuts.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 8 September 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

and the wonderful folk music they've been responsible for.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 September 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

also, is there anything men WON'T fetishize?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 September 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Cacti?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 September 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I bet somewhere, maybe even on your block, there's a dude who just can't wait to get some cacti down his pants. Men are pigs.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously dude, did you see that Savage Love column about the dude who liked stinging nettles? SERIOUSLY.

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I would not lie to you.

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sorry, I was distracted by realizing that THAT COLUMN was the genesis of "santorum".

I betcha there's a woman out there who likes some nettles in the nethers, too. Men do not have the monopoly on pigdom.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

These people who think women are not interested in seeing two men together have lived very different lives from mine. I'm inclined to think that the fact that porn has traditionally been produced by men for men, and corresponding differences such as men being mo9re encouraged to want porn, and the media sexualising women's bodies more, is by far the biggest factor here. I think any arguments along the lines that women are better looking or men don't want to see men fucking women are pretty hopeless angles.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

men like looking at a naked woman. men like looking at more than naked woman even more.
it's like beer. one is great, fine even. but get a six-pack and you've got a party brother!

also it should probably be said that this is one of those fantasies that is best left to the domain of the imagination. i think that for the average lesbian-fantasizin' fellow, the sight of two honest-to-gosh sapphic soulmates satiating each other might make him feel a tad unnecessary. And not in the good Rufus Thomas way of feeling unnecessary.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think I have any friends who *don't* find boy/boy sexy. Mostly text-based, but there's a lot of pretty visual out there -- Velvet Goldmine, OTM!

Hey, come to think of it, I lost my girl/girl virginity at a slash con! (I'd never have done it if she hadn't been a really, really good writer.)

― Layna (Layna Andersen), Monday, 8 September 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

martin skidmore totally OTM.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Monday, 8 September 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I so want to see shoes doing sex.

You have, now button down.

― Lara (Lara), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Watching lesbians have sex (IRL) would probably be limited fun, but watching bi women have sex and knowing that you can join in when you feel like it (or when you have recovered enough to rejoin in) is very classic indeed.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Watching lesbians have sex (IRL)

In Ireland? Why would Irish lesbians be less sexy?????

― Lara (Lara), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

IOW lesbians are boring.

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

everything's boring in Iowa!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I meant the isle of wight but I guess it rubs both ways!!

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

(haha I figured but you know I'm from Minnesota which is right above Iowa and we always make fun of Iowa in Minnesota so you know um cough cough anyway)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

RJG introducing 'rubbing' into the melee, we'll be talking about two nuns in a bath in a minute...

― Lara (Lara), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Sacrelicious!

― Leee (Leee), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

watching two guys get it on IRL is not that fun really, i prefer watching it in porn. way back when i was a fresher two of my male friends decided to go for a bit of rumpy pumpy action right in front of me, it made me feel incredibly uncomfortable, i think because they were my friends thus i felt no sexual desire toward either of them. (so in answer to RJG's query, yes it does depend on the men.) the only reason i didn't leave is cos i was too stoned to move hahaha.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Monday, 8 September 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

so, it depends on the drugs too.

more and more confirmation!

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 8 September 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I suspect watching two people get it on is always more interesting in porn (where they have to position themselves so the camera can actually see what's happening) than IRL (where closeness makes for good fucking but bad sightlines). never seen the latter, though, so I have no idea, really.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Have seen quite a bit of two-people-get-it-on-IRL in the last two weeks for various reasons. Interesting? Definitely--and I think the participants _not_ having a camera to play to makes it more so (see under: with an audience vs. for an audience). H.O.T.T.? Not really as such--at least there's a part of my brain that goes "it would be totally inappropriate to think of this as H.O.T.T."

― Douglas (Douglas), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I've gotta go to Burning Man sometime (not for that, haha!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually it wasn't all there...

― Douglas (Douglas), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, I knew what you meant. I still feel like Burning Man is something I'd like to do.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

also, I appreciate your reply to my IRL post, it's heartening

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos rules.

I didn't bother to read the thread before I started making stupid jokes so did someone else actually post the "women look better" argument as a serious answer?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes Ned, someone always does.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

(psst he's not Ned today, Matt)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

cos they are all gay

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Where were you Douglas and why was it inappropriate to think of it as H.O.T.T.? You didn't burst in on your parents did you?

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Repeatedly? HAHAHAHA! "Mom! Dad! We eat off that counter!"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"Aye?"

― David. (Cozen), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

speaking of fetishizing lesbians and Iowa, Dar Williams to thread

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I so want to see shoes doing sex.

DId I miss something here? Oh wait, I thought you wrote "during sex" -- in which case I highly recommend a dyke-realistic damn hot porn How to Fuck in High Heels.

While I was at avn, I voted this one best all-girl vid. I was surprised that it won considering the usual winner features gay-for-pay lipstick lez trollops with scary Lee press-on fingernails and equally scary boob jobs.

At the awards ceremony Shar Rednour complimented me on my silver ultra high heel sandals. I was right chuffed!

― Melinda Mess-injure, Wednesday, 10 September 2003 04:45 (twenty-two years ago)

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