S/D: Dodgy Biblical Archaeology

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Duelling locations for Mt. Ararat; the pit to hell that Norwegians said Russians discovered, or the other way around, whichever it was; "France was ruled by Jesus's grandkids!!!"; pretty much anything related to the Grail, for that matter; the likely-hoax re: James, brother of Jesus; etc. Maybe throw in "scientists have discovered a missing day" and so on.

The one that I'm always surprised I don't hear much about -- granted, I'm not in this loop anymore, but ... I used to be very much in the loop -- is Eden. I mean, shit, screw the Ark of the Covenant, screw Ararat, if I thought you could go out and find all these things, Eden's the one I'd be scouting out.

Tep (ktepi), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

How about Israeli archeology? Incredibly politicized and fractious, for obvious reasons...

s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought eden was in iraq.

RJG (RJG), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I think most people who would assign a location to Eden would pick Iraq, but has anyone actually claimed to find it? I mean the actual garden, complete with flaming-sword-wielding angel and etc. It sounds silly, but hey, when they're claiming to find portals to hell ...

Israeli archaeology I know very little about, unfortunately; my mentor in ancient history is an Egyptologist (which is why, when it comes to this stuff, it's the Exodus I know most about). Archaeology of all sorts is politicized and fractious, but geez, it's not hard to think of reasons why that'd be even more true in Israel.

Tep (ktepi), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I bought this great book in milwaukee, actually, about this kinda stuff.

it has acetate overlays that sit on top of photographs...RECREATING PLACES IN BIBLICAL TIMES.

like, babylon and shit.

RJG (RJG), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The Tomb of God!!! It's says "the HBHG people got their math WRONG" and most of the book is page after page of geometry and finally says Jesus is buried in the side of a fill somewhere in France.

tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:32 (twenty-two years ago)

'bible then & now'

RJG (RJG), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Hebron to thread!

tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

And where does Chariot of the Gods fit into this? And the Spear of Destiny?

tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Man, I parsed "centuryone" in RJG's url as "centurytwentyone" and thought it was Biblical real estate!

Oh geez, the von Daniken type stuff, that's ... the superset in which this stuff lives, I think. (Assuming I used superset correctly.)

Tep (ktepi), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The Bible was totally about real estate!

tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 8 September 2003 03:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Re: Eden

If you read (and accepted as true) Dante, then there'd be a very good reason to desist from bothering to find Eden. Look at what happened to Odysseus.

Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 8 September 2003 04:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I enjoyed C. Pellegrino's Return to Soddom and Gomorrah which compined science and history and archaelogy to look at events/places mentioned in the Old Testament. But as this is not a field I know much of anything about, well, I've no idea of the veracity of what he writes about.

I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I've got that very book, even interviewed him around the time that came out. Friendly fellow!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, but how is the book for accuracy, Ned? (I loved the one he did on Apollo ... Man on the Moon?)

I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I make no claims for its accuracy but it was a pretty interesting theory in any event.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

*nodding* Many thanks.

I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Did anyone read Dante and assume it was true?

s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:53 (twenty-two years ago)

By the way, here's a pretty good Salon article about Israeli archaeology.

s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 8 September 2003 04:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Did anyone read Dante and assume it was true?

*resists the urge to go spout off on 14th century behavior by slightly educated peasants*

Let's just say that there were cases documented where people believed it to be true.

Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 8 September 2003 05:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Fair enough. Shoulda said "does."

s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 8 September 2003 05:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Indiana Jones to thread!

robster (robster), Monday, 8 September 2003 08:40 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.kardas.net/XV.jpeg

mark s (mark s), Monday, 8 September 2003 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus was an Englishman (and this is why they picked on you)

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 8 September 2003 08:49 (twenty-two years ago)

history of this (very extremely off the top of my head so ppl who know what they're talking about plz jump in...)

i. 16th century: renaissance scholars look back at the classical era to free themselves somewhat from moribund church ubiquity — digging around starts
ii. 17th/18th century: scholars start digging around in non-classical ruins (the gothic) and/or struggling to fit what they dig up to confirm the bible (fossils = animals lost in noah's flood)
iii. late 18th/early 19th century: scholars begin to use better textual/archeological information to CHALLENGE the truth of the bible
iv: late 19th century, Schliemann decides to dig for Troy on the assumption that ancient lit has truth in it, and FINDS it/radical New Age dissent in the UK declares an unbroken anti-establishment link with the DRUIDS etc
v. 1921, reopening of Tut's tomb sets off world-wide amateur egypto-mania, from Art Deco to The Mummy to the Stonecutters etc

mark s (mark s), Monday, 8 September 2003 09:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyone got links to some of these things? I feel like broadening my mind and would love to read up on some of the more whacko religious claims and histories, as well as the sound ones of course :)

Trayce (trayce), Monday, 8 September 2003 09:10 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.learningthai.com/books/tintin/01.jpg

mark s (mark s), Monday, 8 September 2003 09:17 (twenty-two years ago)

holy woah!

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 8 September 2003 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

>Anyone got links to some of these things? I feel like broadening my
> mind and would love to read up on some of the more whacko religious
> claims and histories, as well as the sound ones of course :)

For the Holy Grail/Jesus went to France and had kids story, read _Holy_Blood,_Holy_Grail_ of which there are about a million used copies floating about. Its a very entertaining book.

Not mentioned yet is the whole Mormon thing. Amerinds Indians = Lost tribe of Israel is a whole nother barrel of fun.

fletrejet, Monday, 8 September 2003 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The Holy Blood And The Holy Grail is by two chaps called Baigent and ... um ... possibly Lee; I'm not too sure. The Tomb Of God, about the same sort of stuff, is by Andrews and Schellenberger. There was a rather good TV documentary, several years ago now, debunking it all.

(both books are about the Rennes-le-Chateau mythos. Andrews and Schellenberger claim that the body of Jesus is buried nearby, and that you can prove this by studying sacred geometry in the paintings of Poussin.)

caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 8 September 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

et in arcadia ego:

http://www.duran.freeserve.co.uk/arcadia7.jpg

mark s (mark s), Monday, 8 September 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

et in erebus ego:

http://www.mountaincharlie1850.org/images/ecv_evolution.gif

RJG (RJG), Monday, 8 September 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

(getting better all the time)

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 8 September 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Snopes.com's religion section (http://www.snopes.com/religion/religion.asp) includes articles debunking the lost day and drilling into Hell legends.

j.lu (j.lu), Monday, 8 September 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Mormon missionaries once told me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, i.e. the Mormon Church, had determined that the Garden of Eden had been in Jackson County, Missouri. Their church now owns the land in question.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Hee. I put it in Disney World for a story. I had been hoping I was the first one to think of the "heyyyy, just cause everything started over THERE doesn't mean Eden wouldn't be over HERE, cause of the Flood!" thing. Oh well. The Mormons still don't have roller coasters in their Eden.

(... do they?)

Tep (ktepi), Monday, 8 September 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

According to the Panacea Society, the Garden of Eden was in Bedfordshire, England, and will be the only part of the world to survive the forthcoming apocalypse. The Panacea Society was founded by someone from Bedford, natch.

caitlin (caitlin), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 12:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I saw an interesting book in a shop about Israel-Palestine archaeology. It was based around this american archaeologist guy there who was murdered in mysterious circumstances. he was interested in the archaeology of the recent past - looking at temporary refugee camps from the 1948 war and that kind of stuff. Both Israelis and Palestinians were not interested in that kind of thing - the Israelis want all archaeology to focus on the reigns of King David & King Solomon, while the Palestinians prefer it to focus on the period of greatness when the Al Asqa mosque was built.

so, eh, back to the basic question... yeah it's funny how politicised the past is. there was a piece in the paper the other day where some archaeological remains were accidentally discovered on some Palestinian's land. "I hope it's Roman stuff," he said. "If it's ancient Jewish stuff I'll have a settlement on top of me quicker than you can say 'Transfer Time, T-Head!'".

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Biblical Archaeology Review vs. Biblical Archaeology magazines: is one more reliable that the other? I remember one of them was having a fight with other scholars over the access to Dead Sea/Nag Hammaddi scrolls for translation--I was never able to separate the hype from real issues, and I don't know any Middle Eastern archeaologists so I never did get it straight. Anybody know the story on this?

Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

My first issue of BAR just came in yesterday's mail. I haven't had a chance to do more than flip through it. Unless I'm mistaking it for a magazine with a very similar name, though -- and that's possible, for all I know there's a magazine called the Review of Biblical Archaeology -- this is the better-respected one. That doesn't mean it's better, natch.

This one has a cover story on the "James, Brother of Jesus" deal, though, which looks interesting (it's about the hoax bit, but -- again, just based on skimming -- seems to talk about why there isn't a consensus about it being a hoax.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

A blog about archaeology. Haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but woo.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Woo!

(it mostly seems to be a blog in the original here's-a-load-of-links-to-stuff-I've-read meaning.)

caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow and hrm. I read that issue of Biblical Archaeology Review. I still don't know what to think. It's very ... uh. I don't know. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable citing it in a paper, except for interviews. Not really, but there's a lot of "ho ho, look at us, we're not quite academics, are we, but we're smarter than you church types!" going on. I want to say "well-educated lowbrow," except that sounds more like me, and in a good way.

There's a very good article I need to reread about archaeological evidence of Israelites in Egypt, which is misleadingly -- glaringly and annoyingly misleadingly (hello captain adverb!) -- referred to in the rest of the magazine; the references imply that the article substantiates claims of a historical Exodus, and not only does it not do so, but it provides material well-suited to an argument against a hist. Ex., or at least one very unlike that of the Old Testament.

They're anti-Albright, as far as I can tell, and are accused in the letters section of "not believing in the Bible" (this in reference to the James ossuary, so phoo on the letter-writer), but seem sympathetic to Albright-type apologists. I don't know what to make of them.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 11 September 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)


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