The Beats vs The Angry Young Men

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Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs (capt), Cassady (reserve) vs Braine, Wain, Amis (capt), Wilson (reserve). Referee: Joyce. Battle of the fifties. Gritty druggy hipsters vs Kitchen-sink realists? Same? Different? Who will be champeen? Your bets, gentlemen.

― Sam, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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― Sam, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oooh! What a good question! Obviously both teams had their Gary Neville - i.e. blatantly obvious liabilities. 'On the Road' is over-rated, over-long and very sexist, while 'Look Back in Anger' is, er, over-rated, over-long and very sexist. These movements, for their attempts to be radical, were quite conventional when it came to women. Actually, if it's 'Battle of the Fifties' - I'd go for the French. Genet, Ionesco, Sartre, Beckett's French work, Sarraute, Duras, Godard (while still vagurely within the realms of comprehensibility)

But - if its between Beats and AYM - I'd go for the Beats because I like 'Howl', and because the whole movement just seemed less, well, *mean* somehow.

― Will McKenzie, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

aym misogyny = het laddism, ends up v.reactionary (they were fucked in the arse by the beatles); beats misogyny = (mainly) homo impatience, stays the course (mainly) in re political radicalism (ok burroughs ain't no leftie but he's not exactly darling of the right either): godard = very sexist also!!

― mark s, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, Kerouac ended his life a super-patriot drunk: he hated the way the Merry Pranksters fucked w/ the flag, and he supported the war in Viet Nam. But then it's hard to see that much radicalism in JK - unless it's a politics of 'freedom' or some such guff.

― Andrew L, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Perhaps the AYM could be coupled with "The Movement" - Larkin, Gunn, and, er, some other ones. I would take Larkin over Ginsberg as a poet.

I'm not sure if misogyny is the right word for it, though. Neither bunch were much concerned with women in lit (as mark s said this was for different reasons), but I don't think that was a bad thing. If their agendas didn't overlap with the concerns of sexual politics then surely they shouldn't try to write about it?

― Sam, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

gay politics = sexual politics?
thom gunn of course fled Uk for San Fran, re HIS sexuality
(on a related pirate tip, TG was once referred to as BEN GUNN in Sight and Sound, after my day as sub/fact-checker i hasten to add)

― mark s, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Burroughs and Cassady ; Only read Amis on the Brit list. Joyce is much too aristo to refree.

― anthony, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Any relation between A.Y.M and A.I.M., the radical scientific organisation which flowered briefly in the sixties?

― Al, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Final shot of "Room at the Top" (original film, 1958) in itself enough to swerve me towards Brit side ...

― Robin Carmody, Friday, 28 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

AYM = dark and angry, but still cleverer than the cleverest boy in school, right? the constant drumbeat to throw off trappings of "civilized" society and just let it all hang out maaan, but as a means to be crowned Cleverest of them All.

i was in a scene from Look Back in Anger Once and while the play is offensive and pretty stupid in places, it is tough and bewildering to act in.

the Beats' anti-intellectualism may be just as tiring, but to me it seems less disingenuous. so eye say: Beats. i mean they had Allen Ginsburg after all who was never afraid of a single thing his whole goddamn life.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 28 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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