oyster card

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why isn't there a thread about them already?? i'm far too excited about them, my new photocard should be through in a couple of days and then i won't have to be jealous of the people who've got them already...

― toby (tsg20), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 11:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I really want one too but Toby are they time relative or numbers-of-journeys relative? Also I understand you order them online but where?

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 11:04 (twenty-one years ago)

they are time-and-relative-dimensions-in-space relative

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 11:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that the sound of books not being written?

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

MY CONTRACT HASN"T BEEN SORTED OUT YET!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, then.

More to the point I WANT AN OYSTER CARD.

And an actual oyster or 12.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 11:21 (twenty-one years ago)

You can only get period ones at the minute, so weekly monthly and annual. Not sure when they're bringing in the pay as you go ones.

― Vicky (Vicky), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 11:31 (twenty-one years ago)

They've had those in Hong Kong for a while (strange they're called "Octopus" over there I wonder if there's a marine lifeform theme to these things), and after a while they were so widely used (it works over there more like an online purse so some credit gets taken out per fare) that fast food restaurants/newsagents etc accept them as payment as well as the trains and buses. It's good cos you can keep the card in your wallet and you don't even have to open the wallet to take the card out, and no need to worry about change etc.

Quite good really, I wonder if the same will happen here in London/UK. They had smart "Mondex" cards in my Uni that worked in a similar way but no one bothered to used it cos it only really worked within campus.

― ken c, Tuesday, 16 September 2003 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Ken - did you go to Exeter? I don't think I ever, ONCE used my Mondex card in 18 months to actually buy stuff. Which is a shame because I think it actually came with some free money on it.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 12:02 (twenty-one years ago)

They say that you can leave it in your wallet, and then go on to say that you need to touch the thing at the ticket gate. I've seen quite a few people having problems with them. And apparently if you're renewing on-line you have to do it three days before, and tell them what the first journey you'll be taking on it is.

I think they're a brilliant idea, I just hope teething problems don't create bad first impressions of them, that will take years to overcome.

― Vicky (Vicky), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I went to Nottingham which also had the Mondex thing, I actually thought the idea was neat, but then remembered how hard it was as a student to keep tabs on how quickly ACTUAL CASH disappears, let alone virtual money. (I think I used to keep £10 on it for emergencies i.e. if I had no cash and needed to buy girls drinks in a bar... That cash stayed pretty safe I think!)

― ken c, Tuesday, 16 September 2003 12:30 (twenty-one years ago)

www.oystercard.com

apparently the other types of ticket will be later this year - they said they'd have a price freeze on them when other tickets go up in the new year, so they'd better get them working before then...

― toby (tsg20), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 12:50 (twenty-one years ago)

The BR lines I use most are subject to a little refund on season tickets. this means that I currently pay just over £71 a month and the monthly Oyster is £75.

I want one but I don't really feel like paying more for one.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

71 a month? now I know why I'm always so skint :o(

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

the problem with oysters as far as i can see is you can't do the sneaky, "buspass expired yesterday and i haven't got a new one, so if i just flash it at the driver he won't notice and it's highly unlikely that there'll be an inspector" move, which i seem to end up doing most months, cos the beeper thing won't beep and the busman will KNOW...

they do look KEWL though ;)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah that is a potential problem. you can update them a few days in advance though, and you can do it online so no realising you need a new travelcard on a monday morning and queuing for 15mins.

you cd always keep an old travelcard behind the oystercard to flash if needed, i guess...

― toby (tsg20), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

if front, surely?

― ken c, Tuesday, 16 September 2003 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

in front, surely?

― ken c, Tuesday, 16 September 2003 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

My current method of renewing my monthly Travelcard is the one of only times I ever feel part of my local community - the awkward-cum-cosy chat I have with the Indian lady in the newsagents on Westow Hill (our relationship was established back in the days when I was unemployed and buying a one-day bus pass every third day at two in the afternoon; she found this amusing).

I still try to pay my leccy bill by inviting the meter-reader in for biscuits.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

...a card made of oysters.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Tim:

http://www.oystercard.com/

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm already three weeks into my first oyster card. (Gosh, I sound like a show-off). I was terribly excited when I first got it! I'm noticing increasing numbers of them at my station, but I was something of a novelty when I first got it, which was great fun!

You don't have to take it out, which is brilliant, as you can carry on reading with one hand and flash your oyster with the other. I'm curious to know how it works with extensions, though. I have a zones 1,2,3 card, which I used to flash at the ticket bloke.

When there's been no barrier, I've just flashed the card and they've just taken my honest face as guarantee that I've paid the right fare!

― Daniel (dancity), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh and they posted it to me in a very smart CD-shaped presentation pack, which delighted me for far longer than it ought to have.

― Daniel (dancity), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 21:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Another thing: if I don't bleep when I leave the system, will it block me when I next try and go through? I think I read somewhere that the card will think I'm still in the underground and all manner of mayhem will ensure. Perhaps I should just test it out one day.

― Daniel (dancity), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

What is this, some other weird UK delicacy (see: salad cream) I haven't heard of?

― s1utsky (slutsky), Tuesday, 16 September 2003 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

correct, slutsky

i shall be getting mine at the wknd hopefully

― zebedee (zebedee), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 11:24 (twenty-one years ago)

oops, l=1 obv

― zebedee (zebedee), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 11:25 (twenty-one years ago)

two weeks pass...

Transport Police will turn up to your door at 3am and say "COME ON SONNY - TIME TO GO HOME NOW"

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

That happened to me on Saturday night. Thank goodness we found you, they said.

― Daniel (dancity), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

My original comment was based loosely on something that happened to me in Tokyo when I forgot to validate my ticket and when i went in (or out of?) the system again, it went haywire. Cue very confused ticket checker and tourist. I thought I'd heard of something similar over here but I may be wrong.

― Daniel (dancity), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I would love to see a spider diagram of journeys across London that is now possible with Oyster. I realise that there are obv. Big Brother implications to this, but it would be great to see and study (AKA - nice to look at, and for others to study and report back to me).

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 07:34 (twenty-one years ago)

heh, Chris's got him into the underground this morning, but his first attempt to get out of Kings Cross was met with a 'seek assistance' and lots of annoyed commuters as he had to wade back through them all. And then of course, second try at a different set of gates it worked like a dream.

I want one, but my gold card's valid until the 5th December :0(

― Vicky (Vicky), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 07:48 (twenty-one years ago)

in my first two days with the card i got "seek assistance" twice, and both times trying other gates worked fine. my officemate had similar teething troubles, but reported that trying the same gate again straight away worked fine, so maybe that's worth trying if it happens again? he reckoned it happens if you don't touch the card to the gate properly. i've not had it again, anyway.

― toby (tsg20), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 07:53 (twenty-one years ago)

oh and when you get used to them they're fantastic, you walk straight through the gates and get to feel v smug compared to anyone with you who has to fiddle around with a normal ticket.

― toby (tsg20), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 07:54 (twenty-one years ago)

people! london is so out of date! like, oyster cards are supa new right now. check moscow, where this smart-card-that-you-wave-around-in-yr-wallet has been around for about 5 yrs! and like, my student one cost 2 pounds for a month! for metro,trolleybus,tram, buses and suburban trains!

nothing really to contribute, just to gloat over how backwards the tube is compared to supposedly backwards countries like russia!

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 08:10 (twenty-one years ago)

wow man, way to harsh our buzzes

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 08:14 (twenty-one years ago)

do they have to touch the yellow pad? Cos the ones on the busses in perugia can be scanned from a foot or so away inside a bag or a pocket.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 08:17 (twenty-one years ago)

the russian pad is deepest red

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

A similar ski pass (that you could just keep in your jacket as you walked past a sensor a foot or two away) was in operation in Davos, Switzerland when I was skiing there about five years ago.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

mine has been working perfectly so far at all stations and all buses i've used - a plethora between zones 1-5 no less. it's totally classic, but the Pay As You Travel method could be even 'classicer' tho perhaps only for people who do travel into London but not everyday

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 09:46 (twenty-one years ago)

to be totally classic it would have to work out from your journeys the most appropriate bus pass or travel card to cover them.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 09:59 (twenty-one years ago)

that sounds like TMFD to me ;)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 10:09 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...

I am currently grumpy/stupid as I cannot remember when I got MY FIRST OYSTERCARD - I was sure it was on Thursday night, but then whilst going through London Bridge today I was told my ticket was expriring soon - but NO SUCH MESSAGE AT GOODGE STREET! Argh! And seeing as my luvverly local train station neither has Oyster facilities or barriers there is a chance I will not know until London Bridge, and have to do aforementioned "weaving back through commuters thing" referenced upthread and hoping I will be let through.

Is there a way to find out dates? This could be a right PITA for monthlys, say.

Or am I just an Idiot.

― Sarah (starry), Monday, 24 November 2003 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Idiot Starry

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 24 November 2003 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)

get on a bus, the screen shows you when it runs out.

only some barriers in the Underground seem to show the message.

― chris (chris), Monday, 24 November 2003 10:53 (twenty-one years ago)

ISTR getting the card before going to the pub.

However I went to the pub every night last week.

Hm.

― Sarah (starry), Monday, 24 November 2003 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

*polite applause*

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 24 November 2003 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there a way to find out dates?

That's what your Record Card is for, Starry. Or didja not get one?

You get all kind of messages on the gates at Warren Street, depending upon which way I exit the station - "No bagels today, Mikey?" "Brolly at the ready" and "Where's the missus today?"

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 24 November 2003 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

No record card for me :(

THE BUGGERS!

― Sarah (starry), Monday, 24 November 2003 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

i got a record card when i first got mine, but then not when i put an extra week on. am going to try putting a month of bus on today via the machine, although i'm still a little afeared of it totally not working...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Monday, 24 November 2003 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 26 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I just bought one, due to differences between cash/Travelcard prices and Oyster being quite excessive now. It is being delivered thru the post. With Oxon post being what it is, this could take ages. I phoned their helpdesk, which was actually some help, coz I wanted to find out if you could get a summary of yr journeys/costs emailed to you, which is essential for me as I will be using the card for business purposes and so will need to claim back expenses with 'evidence'.

― MarkH (MarkH), Saturday, 18 March 2006 09:42 (nineteen years ago)

prepay will even let you go a little into debt sometimes, but I have never quite worked out when it is allowed and when it isn't.

― Ed (dali), Saturday, 18 March 2006 09:47 (nineteen years ago)

maybe only if it's under £3 (this is a guess tho!)

― ken c (ken c), Saturday, 18 March 2006 09:49 (nineteen years ago)

qpr is in zone 2

― emsk ( emsk), Saturday, 18 March 2006 09:54 (nineteen years ago)

Tube Zones

― Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Saturday, 18 March 2006 10:42 (nineteen years ago)

My oyster card stopped working for no apparent reason on Friday. I had to fill out a form at the tube station and delay my journey home but I blagged £10 Prepay for my troubles so all was well in the end.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 20 March 2006 11:00 (nineteen years ago)

I was annoyed to discover at the weekend that all oyster cards are equal but some more than others. You can only use oyster on the rail network if you've got a season ticket with zones on it. I only have a scummy prepay one. A friend suggested to me that this is because the relevant authorities can't agree on how fare money involved should be divided up between them. But the upshot is that I spent quite a bit of money on a couple of return journeys this weekend, not to mention the inconvenience of needing to buy tickets, having gone to the trouble of getting an oyster - in response to the appealing publicity - in the first place. I'm very disappointed.

― Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Monday, 20 March 2006 11:19 (nineteen years ago)

You can only use oyster on the rail network if you've got a season ticket with zones on it.

Mine's pre-pay because I get the bus to work, so it isn't worth getting a card. And mine works on the Silverlink trains at least.

I really didn't want to get an Oyster, but the differences in fares made not having one ridiculous.

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

oyster cards smell fantastic when you first get them.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:21 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, and don't forget, 2-for-1 cinema tickets at Vue cinemas with your Oyster Card (except Leicester Square, which is okay cos that's a stinky Vue).

― Pete (Pete), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

remarkably this is true.

― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:26 (nineteen years ago)

I *still* don't get the love though. (And I mostly go to the cinema on my own...)

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:28 (nineteen years ago)

i still dont trust what they say about lowest daily fare price capping, but i also can't ever be bothered to prove it. maybe i'm generally not paying attention to how much i use it what with the convenience and all.

besides the lower prices the attraction is the same as any credit card - u spendspendspend but u dont have to see the grubby cash to make u feel bad about it.

― rtcotm (mwah), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:34 (nineteen years ago)

anna, it's cheaper, and you don't have to carry change. what's not to like?

― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:43 (nineteen years ago)

You have to give them your home address and all kinds of personal information. It tracks your every move and every journey. Also, it DOESN'T BLOODY WORK ON THE THAMESLINK!

― Hello Cthulhu (kate), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:47 (nineteen years ago)

i have the bus pass on it, and i never bleep when i get on so they cannae track me evah!

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

i have to give my address when i get a paper season travelcard anyway. so that if i lose it i can re-get it

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:50 (nineteen years ago)

i hardly ever get the tube/train though, so that might make a difference

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:50 (nineteen years ago)

also: if you get an oyster just for pre-pay you don't have to register it anyway! (you just pay them the deposit and you get a card)

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:53 (nineteen years ago)

re: what's not to like?

Q: how do you know when you are running low re pre-pay?

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 20 March 2006 15:57 (nineteen years ago)

it's true they could do with an LED display on the card.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:00 (nineteen years ago)

You don't, unless you look at a display as you are getting on to a bus, leaving hoardes of mad Holloway Road people trying to get to work FAST to slam into the back of you and tut.

I resented the way TFL pretty much forced me into it by making all other options untenable. I don't like being told what to do.

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:01 (nineteen years ago)

You have to give them your home address and all kinds of personal information.

do they care if you move house? they have my old address.

prepay oyster cards are classic on bendy buses, i've made £20 last since january! and i think i still have a fiver on it. it didn't work on the silverlink last time i tried, though.

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

i dunno, keeping vague track of how much is on yr oyster seems about the same inconvenience as making sure u've got the particualrly right change handy. the machines are very annoyingly exact and even in the old days drivers wd grumble and sigh when u showed them something as little as a fiver. while hoardes of mad holloway road people trying to get to work FAST slam into the back of you and tut.

― rtcotm (mwah), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

Q: how do you know when you are running low re pre-pay?

it says on the thing when you beep on the bus/off the tube.

or you can use basic memory skills...

― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:10 (nineteen years ago)

i still dont trust what they say about lowest daily fare price capping

You mean never being charged more than the cost of a one-day Travelcard/Bus Pass for your combination of journeys? It works. After your fourth or fifth interchange "0.00" appears in the barrier/bus ticket machine displays. The urge to go all the way to Hainault or Uxbridge at that point while quaffing champagne is hard to resist*.

(* - except, obv, you'd be charged for that if you hadn't already been out that far).

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

>> You have to give them your home address and all kinds of personal information.

No, you don't. I think you did when they first came out, but I bought mine from the local offy where I used to get my weekly bus pass. Didn't have to tell them my name or anything.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:15 (nineteen years ago)

if you pre-pay and don't use the tube does it cap to the daily bus-pass price or still travelcard?

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:16 (nineteen years ago)

oh well that's good to know. what i have most likely overlooked is that a one day travelcard probably costs 17 quid now...

― rtcotm (mwah), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

xxpost yeah i think you only have to register for anything over 7days. (just like you used to with paper tickets)

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:18 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, you might have to register to get a monthly pass, I registered anyway, so I don't know. I have bought a monthly pass from the shop though, without noticing him check anything, but I suppose the machine would stop you buying a monthly pass if you weren't registered?

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

I still don't have one because my monthly travelcard (bought at an railway station) continues to be discounted to the tune of £4 a month. This is apparently due to the train companies having to stump up for the service not coming up to scratch at some point in history, though I use the train daily and find it at least as reliable as any other form of transport up Lundin.

When the discount disappears, or they allow me to carry it across, then I guess I'll switch. Having to haul my travelcard out of its little wallet every time I want to go through a tube barrier is a bit annoying I suppose.

― Tim (Tim), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

if you pre-pay and don't use the tube does it cap to the daily bus-pass price or still travelcard?

Bus Pass. It caps to whatever daily pass would suffice for the journeys you're making. Ten bus trips? Bus pass. Nip underground for Piccadilly Circus-Kings X? Z1 one-day travelcard. Go out to Turnpike Lane? Z1-4 one-day travelcard (there is no Z1-3 equivalent). Etc.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

checking - it's 50p cheaper than daily bus ticket

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2006/oyster/general.asp#daily

Alternatively, if you are using only the bus or tram, you’ll pay no more than £3, 50p less than the price of a One Day Bus Pass

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

You can set up a direct debit process, so if you dip below, say £5, oyster will update automatically using your debit card.

How dare all this personal information be stored on one little card? Versus Oh, that's handy.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 20 March 2006 16:49 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, I didn't know about extra 50p off - must be a new thing. Hurrah!

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 20 March 2006 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

i can't help but think they'd be handier if it was easier to see how much you had left on it...

if i'd eaten a kebab last month, i'd have been trapped in highbury under the influence of drugs :O

awful.

― Raffles: Gentleman Thug (Raffles: The Gentleman Thug), Monday, 20 March 2006 20:49 (nineteen years ago)

Can't you see how much is left on it by just touching it to the ticket machine sensor thingy?

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 20 March 2006 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

ten months pass...

I have just discovered that I left my oyster card in my pocket and it's been thoroughly washed in the washing machine. Will it still work? I'm going out in a minute...

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Friday, 2 February 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

I did that once and it was still fine.

― toby (tsg20), Saturday, 3 February 2007 00:50 (eighteen years ago)

As long as this is revived -- I should go for a 7-day Travelcard when I'm there in March for zones 1 to 6, yes? (As I'm there for 7 days and all.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 3 February 2007 00:51 (eighteen years ago)

Zones 1-2 are all many people ever need.

― Elsa Svitborg (tracerhand), Saturday, 3 February 2007 01:19 (eighteen years ago)

What, you live there or something?

I need to check which zone Hackney is in. The rest will follow. (Aside from the ride in from Heathrow, obv.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 3 February 2007 01:26 (eighteen years ago)

hey ned-

i never made it to LA. went straight back to HNL. i'll be there soon enough though.

― jambalaya backgammon (grady), Saturday, 3 February 2007 01:35 (eighteen years ago)

hackney is z2

― Friendly Tree (688), Saturday, 3 February 2007 01:47 (eighteen years ago)

hackney is z2

Rock. Maybe I'll stick with z1-4 just in case...

i never made it to LA.

PUNK. Actually no worries, if you can time it right we can do a proper FAP next time -- just make it a weekend thing! Glad to hear you're back safe -- BTW, my folks and I are thinking we'll stick with our Sheraton plan for Hawaii unless there's something we should be aware of on your end, though my mom is checking through various package deals and the like.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 3 February 2007 01:50 (eighteen years ago)

ned - i haven't checked prices but would imagine z1-2 + a little prepay would make more sense. buses don't have zones, and eg z2-z3 on the tube is only a quid.

― toby (tsg20), Saturday, 3 February 2007 09:25 (eighteen years ago)

I would go for the full monty, Ned, saves having to think about it.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Saturday, 3 February 2007 09:51 (eighteen years ago)

...it works fine, but the photocard is a bit soggy.

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Saturday, 3 February 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

I (and TfL) just can't get buying online to work for my account. It keeps failing.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Saturday, 3 February 2007 10:53 (eighteen years ago)

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