childlessness

What bothers me is people having children because it's *expected* -- it's the default setting -- without *thinking* about whether they want, or should have children, and DECIDING. It's not like taking a kitten home.

(xp to Ned)

Please don't get this twisted and think that I want there to be less brown people or whatever

Well, that's a relief. ;)

(I'm sorry, I'm totally seeing your point, oops. I just felt the need to add a bit of my usual lame-ass, so-called "levity" here.)

IMHO only damned talented people should shun the easy path to adding meaning to their lives through children and attempt to concentrate all the meaning of their lives into their work or play -- or their spouse.

http://www.sbhcs.com/education/residency/cute-baby.jpg

A lot of people will probably never know how talented they are because they're too tired to do anything but raise their children.

now, having had a son ( much to my surprise ) i am so glad i am experiencing the 'wonder' that is parenthood.
giving birth was traumatic ( emergency caesarian nasty stuff etc ) but as someone who truly felt that having a child was not a thing i really wanted, i can now say with conviction that it is definately the most fantastic thing to happen to me. it is tiring at times( exhausting might be more appropriate ), and it can be a thankless existence, especially when you are a sole parent, but i wouldnt change a thing now because it is so worth it.

it doesnt bother me if people say they dont want children, ever. if they change their mind later thats fine. if not, well so what! i used to get annoyed at the pressure to 'start a family' sometimes too, when i was married.

I think it's a lot easier for a guy to say "never" though b/c they won't find themselves whispering wordless prayers for days when going to the bathroom only to have reality dropped on them like a ton of bricks. Once those bricks hit you you're "never"s can change.

I quite like children, but the idea of pregnancy (natural state, yes yes) just feels so so so wrong.

I agree with that totally and it's the aspect of having children that I like the least - the physicality of it. It's not something I envy women over. Then again some women do enjoy pregnancy itself.

I also hated the midwives and nurses/health visitors bustling around talking about 'baby' (and later 'cruising' and all the other babycare jargon). I only really started to enjoy parenthood when my son began to talk (and then his evolution into being a little bloke).

I find that disturbing. A person is only of value to you if they can discuss such things with you? Is everyone just source material and intellectual fodder for you? That's twisted.

It is true, though, that I'd often rather be alone than around people I have nothing to say to. Makes me uncomfortable. You know, I imagine myself trying to play with kids, you know, laughing and running around in the backyard and making silly faces, and the children are grinning and calling me "daddy," and I get a chill. Sounds like a horrible way to spend my time. Can't say why, and maybe a good therapist could explain it to me, but the idea repulses me. I would make a horrible father.

'cruising' is babycare jargon?! Sick!

Children are not in my future... I would be an awful, awful father. I will be a godfather one day and that will be OK because of the whole limited contact thing, but generally I don't like being around small children.

I didn't want children in my 20s but I didn't not want them - it seemed likely that I would at some point and so it's proved. It was very much the experience of doing something else I wanted to with my talents and making a relative success of it that changed my mind. I pretty much realised that I could either keep on writing and pushing my writing and trying to 'make something' of that, or I could have kids and raise them, and the latter just seems so much more challenging and interesting and likely to make me a less selfish and better person. I'm also lucky enough to be engaged to somebody whose talent is relating to and teaching kids, and her level of talent at that dwarfs anything I can do, so I'm not worried *too* much that my own potential failings as a parent will ruin my kids lives.

It doesn't seem all that likely that I would have them in the first place, though - at least not my own, although do I wonder about adoption. From what I've heard, possible adopters' interest tails off the older the child gets - there's a lot of (for lack of a better word) demand for tiny babies, very little for pre-teens and teenagers, and that's such a hellish time anyway it must be even worse if you're stuck in a foster home. They're no doubt harder to deal with at that age, but they're their own person, even if some of them are fucked up, and, you know, just giving someone somewhere to call home - their own home - until they're legally allowed to take care of themselves could have a lot of upsides.

Also, in agreement with CJ, I cannot believe that ppl do not discuss this beforehand. I know you don't want to be seen to be jumping the gun, but I have to say that in my realtionship, it was one of the first things that we discussed.

She explains that much of her life has felt a struggle to achieve a sense of psychological stability and self-worth, but especially since she turned 30 things have improved for her. She enjoys her lifestyle, her friends, her hobbies, and her work, and feels a calmness and assuredness she never had before.

Is it possible that there's some sort of fear of failure there? Maybe keep trying to build up her general confidence, give her plenty of support and just hang on in there.

In a brief telephone intake I was told that my situation was rather unusual and advised if I have decided to remain with my wife I will need to learn to accept placing my marriage above potential fatherhood, and in doing so make her decision my own, but will need to mourn my lost desire to have children. (difficult not talking about this in psychobabble). I think this is essentially correct. I’ve talked with a close male friend, (typically male I’m not good generally at ‘sharing’) but the fact he’s just become a father himself hasn’t helped. I’ve started sponsoring a child in Senegal. I’ve taken up making music again for the first time in years. I’ve thrown myself into my frequently demanding work. I try to think how being childless has its advantages, financially and in lack of responsibilities - I recently took a week off and went on holiday alone to think things over- but when one craves those responsibilities these benefits offer cold comfort.

Still, being able to share my frustrations here, and in the process clarifying them, does offer some solace, for which I’m grateful.

If you're definitely going to stay with your wife and reconcile yourself to a life without your own children, what about investing some time and energy into other people's kids - with their permission of course? Do you have siblings/relatives/friends with children? Often others are delighted when someone else takes a big interest in their kids and helps them with childcare or introducing them to new sports and pastimes etc

My brother loves kids but doesn't have any of his own. He spends a lot of time with his friends kids and has become an adopted 'uncle' in lots of families. His girlfriend has no interest in children so he appears to satisfy his paternal longing in that way.

x-post

I think Penelope offered some good ideas! When I was a child I had an *uncle* (a close gay male friend of my parents). He never had any children but briefly adopted one. Of course adoption is out of the question, but doing some volunteer work might be a really good idea! That is, if the pain is less through this volunteer, I could see that exposure to children could worsen the pain.

I have an acquaintance who wanted children. Her husband first said no, but then said he changed his mind (because she was so unhappy being childless). But apparently they are fertility problems. His reaction? He doesn't want to be tested, so she's left with the realization that children are out of the question (again). She's Japanese and lives in Belgium. She's very depressed, as you can guess.

I live some distance from my own family, and my in-laws are, well, my in-laws if you know what I mean. I’ve looked into taking a more active role with other people’s children one way or another but Dr. C is quite correct I think that having your own children is v. different to being with others. She could change her mind of course but I regard it improbable, she is very resolute and I would be fooling myself if I lay much hope in the prospect. I no longer think her reluctance is based on a lack of confidence, or the desire to put her career +/or social life first. She simply does not want children and thinks becoming a mother will make her deeply unhappy.

The possibility of becoming a biological father recently presented itself. A lesbian couple, one a friend/colleague, are considering having a child and are looking for a potential sperm donor. They sort-of-suggested I might be interested. I mused on the idea, but my role would be limited to a sperm donor, and not a father. It would be a distant relationship with the child, and one I wouldn’t be comfortable with - though explaining it to my devoutly religious parents might be fun ;-).

You know that spring feeling, when you’re feeling especially sensual, the weather is warm, and the streets seem packed of gorgeous women (or men) and you see them everywhere. I have something similar now with babies (though without the lust, obviously).

I'm an only child and grew up moving a lot, I was very shy and never cared for kids, 'playing mommy', any of that. I met my current husband shortly after we turned 18 and we probably didn't talk about kids until we were 27, maybe a year before we finally got around to talking about marriage (a state I was less opposed to but didn't really give a shit about either). So I was getting no pressure from him or my family, thank goodness.

Careerwise, I started working in radio when I was 20 and moved up the ranks pretty quickly, eventually becoming program director of my station as well as holding down the morning show shift. This is an incredibly demanding and rewarding job, I really loved it and it consumed me utterly. I was on call 24/7 and usually worked 5a-5p. My boyfriend was working his way through graduate school and then law school.

Last year we got married, I quit my job, and we relocated to St. Louis where my husband had a well-paying job at a big law firm waiting for him. I wanted to take a break from radio and so got involved in politics, in time for the November 04 elections. I realized that as hard as I was working, it was nothing compared to how much I had been working in radio. I had time to breathe and relax and it wasn't the worst thing in the world (I had a bad habit of staying busy to avoid fretting about the future). I had a pregnancy scare and it occurred to me that it wouldn't be the worst thing ever to have a baby, but I was still glad when I got my period. I started noticing friends who had kids and were continuing to be human beings. Maybe more importantly, I finally had co-workers with kids--radio is very male-dominated and even the male DJs didn't often have kids.

After the 04 elections, I was pretty depressed that all my work didn't manage to get me a democratic president or governor, and I was unemployed for the first time since I was a teenager. I had a lot of time on my hands. I didn't want to get back into radio and so had to figure out what to do with my life. And for some reason I kept coming back to kids. Even though I'd never really pictured me with one, I do think it's a worthwhile endeavor to raise a child well. After scraping by on a DJ salary for years and helping my boyfriend with law school, I was in this ridiculous position of being able to take a job or not as I chose. I'm not the type of person who does well with sitting on the couch all day, but I wasn't sure what kind of job I could get, and at that time my job-hunting was not going well. If I was going to have a kid, I was really in the best situation possible.

So we started talking about it, my husband, bless his heart, has always said that ultimately it's my body and my decision but that he wasn't opposed to it. I was still pretty unconvinced but when I make a decision I like to go for it, so I decided to go to the doctor and get a physical, make sure everything's in good shape, and get on prenatal vitamins. This was in December; they like you to take prenatal vitamins for three months at least before you start trying to get pregnant.

I got a job in January, but of course we felt like now that we'd decided that it wouldn't be horrible to have a baby, we got pretty casual with birth control. We were pretty much just relying on the rhythm method and boy, after 11 years of condoms, it was the most awesome thing in the world. Sometime in March we got too careless, and I got a positive pregnancy test on April Fools Day.

Sometimes I still feel like I don't want anything to interfere with the nice little life my husband and I have, but sometimes I'm so thrilled, thinking about what a good dad he'll be. And being pregnant is a very interesting experience, much more stimulating to the right-brain than I thought it would be. I've been lucky to have an easy pregnancy, but even the not-so-enjoyable parts get picked over by my scientist brain. The nice thing about the whole process is that it happens so slowly, you get time to make your piece with this or that aspect of it.

So I don't know how much that'll help you, broody, but that's my story.

The only thing I can say here (and this is purely from my own experience, obv - other people's might well be different) is that you have absolutely no way of knowing, nor could you even begin to guess, the effect that motherhood will have on you until you do it for yourself. Huge gamble, I know. But looking after other people's children is simply not the same. It doesn't even come close. Looking after other people's children, no matter how sweet they are, feels no different from looking after someone's puppy for a weekend.

Nothing I had ever felt before prepared me for the emotions which washed over me when I held my babies in my arms from the very first time. There's a moment when your eyes lock, and it's as though you know each other. Deeply. Absolutely. I can't really explain it. It's like looking at yourself and your partner in a mirror, because your baby is some weird composite of the two of you, and your baby looks into your eyes and just connects in some way. Maybe this is Mother Nature's way of trying to ensure that new Mums don't freak out and abandon their newborns all over the place, I don't know. But it's like a superglue bond is formed, the like of which you will never experience with any other partner or friend.

I have two young daughters now, and I won't pretend that it's all been plain sailing. When they were tiny and teething, there were times they wouldn't sleep and I was so tired after spending all night trying to soothe them that I didn't know what day it was. But I have never for one moment resented them, or felt they hindered me in any way, or regretted that I chose to be a mother. In fact, my only regret would probably be that I didn't start earlier, and have more of them :)

Having children has enriched my life immeasurably. The love between me and my children is unconditional and knows no bounds; it's a love which I didn't know I was capable of, and I'm a much much better person for it.

I am so sad for you, broody. And for your wife :(

It also might intensify it. I dunno. It seems to help my brother though.

As for relieving broody feelings, I don't know. I still don't like other people's kids!

I wasn't saying it in response to your answer, penelope. Broody had said that they'd looked after his wife's delightful nieces in his bid to see if it made her feel any more well-disposed towards having children around, but that it hadn't convinced her.

but nothing anyone says or does is yet convincing me. at the age of 30, i remain resolute. many of my friends have children; i'm an uncle and a godfather (to the same child) and am due to become an uncle all over again later this week. i have to admit - and call me an unfeeling bastard if you want - that i'm not excited at all. i sincerely hope everything goes well for my sister-in-law, but the prospect of another baby being born does zip. the way i try to explain it to people is it's like there must be a little part of my brain missing: the part that compels most people to feel some sense of soppiness towards children. show me any kind of baby animal (or indeed most adult animals) and my heart melts; show me a baby human and i go "meh".

mrs fiendish and i have discussed this at length, and she understands the strength of my feelings. luckily, at the moment she has no desire for children either. however, she absolutely refuses to rule them out in the future. so there is a chance that at some point e could be in something of a dilemma.

so what i decided a year or so ago is: never say never. i really can't see it happening, but if it meant so much to mrs f - if she really, really felt her life wouldn't be complete without a kid; if it was the most important thing to her in the world; if the desire overcame everything else ... well, what else could i do?

perhaps this is the key point. desire for a child is an active, consuming thing; desire not to have a child is basically passive, an avoidance of action rather than action. (this is arguable - i know, i've argued it - but i'm trying to be reasonable here.) and with that in mind, it seems fair for it to be the "passive" partner who agrees to succumb to the wishes of the other one, because ultimately their desire is more consuming.

if your wife is anything like me, talking about and spending time with other people's children will only make her even more opposed. this has to be about you, your relationship and your future, and you have to make that clear to her. it's not about desire to be like other people or try something you think might be nice: it's about you.

how you convince her of that, i don't know, but i guess what i'm saying is that constantly trying to point out how wonderful children are will probably only put her off further. my mum in particular is desperate for us to have kids, and she winds me up something rotten by going on about it. the only thing that could possibly convince me is mrs fiendish. put it this way: if she said "it's have a child or lose me", i'd choose the child.

god, i really don't know if this is going to be helpful or not. i hope so. and i really hope you can work this out.

I think a woman not wanting kids is perhaps something deep-seated and very different from a man's passive avoidance, although of course I don't deny that some men have stronger feelings.

not-goodwin - I think doing what you want when you want all the time is overrated.

This is so very key. As someone who is female and also doesnt want kids, I can't stress enough that for some of us women, that urge, that biology, it just is not there. It never comes. It wont change. I'm 34 and it never has for me. I think my niece and nephew are great fun, but it didnt make me clucky being around close family children. I really feel I should say that for some of us, it just never comes into the picture and all the "you'd change your mind if you had them"'s is just not helpful at all, sadly.

It has nothing to do with selfishness or money or lifestyle - it just is. I am not on this earth to go forth and multiply. I dunno why, but I know in my deepest heart I am not :/

Dr C, I know what you’re saying, but I don’t mean watching my favourite tv show or wanting to go out on the piss whenever I want. I was referring to bigger things like I’m looking at moving down south, London/ Brighton, and only having to think of myself is handy to say the least. If I had children, it obviously wouldn’t be as simple.

it ain't that bad is it?

Thats as may be but Ive known all my life so far I dont want kids. In about 10 years I wont be able to have any anyway. It is never even a "maybe" for me. Not ever. I dont know how else I can underline how definite an understanding that is in me!

so what i decided a year or so ago is: never say never. i really can't see it happening, but if it meant so much to mrs f - if she really, really felt her life wouldn't be complete without a kid; if it was the most important thing to her in the world; if the desire overcame everything else ... well, what else could i do?

I always wonder how people who don't want children but still have them for their partners will treat their children. I'm not saying you'll abuse them in any way,but I would fear myself if I am like you: not loving them enough. I'm probably simplistic in my way of thinking here. So sorry if I offended you! I think it's probably my inferiority complex acting up: I love children (my future children and others) so much, I want them to have a *perfect* childhood. I've seen what abuse can do. :-(

Anthony, I'm sure you'd make a good dad. I look at my father, having been abused horribly, and see how good he is at parenting. It wasn't always easy - having to tackle his own past abuse - but it made him realize even better how much love is needed. Here it's now possible for holebi's (homo/lesbian/bisexuals) to adopt children. I think that's great news.

not offended at all, nathalie: i mean, i worry about that too. would i care enough? would my children grow up lacking in paternal love?

that said: dr c's interesting and thought-provoking comments remind me of what my dad says (sorry dr c, don't want to make you feel old!) about when my parents had me: he wasn't particularly buoyed by the prospect during my mum's pregnancy, but the moment i came along he was totally smitten. (well: somebody has to be.) and i think my parents are wonderful; i'm lucky to have always had a fantastic relationship with them (usual teenage fights notwithstanding).

Of course often everything does not work out right and you do not want to be near your parents. I have an extremely bad temper and have been known, when premenstrual or otherwise very upset, to shout at my dogs and crash around the house and generally scare the bejesus out of everyone. I feel bad enough on the occasions when I do it to the dogs, but there's no way I could inflict that on a child.

Also, I'm too old now, I'm not healthy enough and doubt I ever will be, and I just can't be arsed. It does seem kind of sad, because Bloke would make a fantastic father - he is interested in kids, has energy for them, and just loves the little dotes - but it's not for me, I don't think, and so not for us. I don't think I could be one of those people who'd do it for my partner.

Having said that, if by some freak accident I do get pregnant, I will do my very best to be a good mother.

Have any of you had this conversation, one wants children the other doesn’t. if so, how did it go?

See above.

If you remain convinced kids aren't for you then I'd suggest being very clear about this, before you embark on a serious long-term relationship. You may risk damaging the relationship but at least you both then know where you stand on the issue.

I have a guy now I am very happy with, totally someone who I could spend my life with - we're a team, hes my best friend, we are completely and utterly aligned on everything... he wants kids even less than I do!

It might also be worth noting I have also been pregant once before - by accident - and no, even then I did not waver in my calm (if rather grim) decision to... well, deal with it. I didnt regret or lament that decision at all. I'd even had that "what-if" resolved in my mind since my late teens!

I'm practical, if maybe a little cold, I dunno.

It's like trying to convince vegetarians they'd be so much happier if they'd just eat a cheeseburger.

This just does not sound right to me.

Seconded! Actually, it's not so much that I "don't like" other people's kids; I like my friends' and relatives' kids, and can appreciate their parental joys and challenges much better. I just still don't coo over random children at Target or on the street.

I'm one of those people who thought he'd be childless by choice. Never did I expect to actually have a child, and never did I expect to adore her as much as I do.

Jeez... I would never do that. Pork loin. Veal, maybe.

I've reached that point where I now realise that children will never happen for me. Odd feeling.

I wonder though, how many of the people 10 years ago on this thread changed their mind? (not begging for responses, I understand not everyone would want to discuss here)