The nature of political protest in britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/dec/11/kingsnorth-green-banksy-saboteur

^^^^ this dude rules

fucking bourgie student types. protest should be positive and direct action should be witty, not primal. i will expand on this.

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm - no
2. waging random violence - no
3. turning up only to protest your own careerist concerns and letting the government fuck you in countless other, far more pernicious ways - no

now let me establish that the tuition price hike is a fucking disgrace but we should concentrate not on that but on the possibilities of education in this country

humanities degrees: you do not need the student to attend university for these. put the lectures online. open the libraries. orient the courses entirely towards dissertations and theses. destroy the exam mentality. do the same for A-levels. allow free access to knowledge.

science degrees: the students attend science faculties and housing is provided for them. by the age of 18 they know what sort of science faculty they would prefer but they can still transfer.

any student can do a minor degree in a different subject. lecturers and academics are available for meeting, as long as there's a genuine passion.

students live independently among the people. they work part-time or they receive student welfare. campuses are an outdated and polarising conceit. those who choose not to be students are in the same situation and lead similar lives. university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

all of this is idealistic and 'crazy' sure but only by suggesting what we really want are we going to be in any way persuasive

anyhow, the protest should have flowed naturally from a less controllable start-point. start it on westminster bridge. peacefully block traffic outside the houses of parliament. peacefully resist police intervention. repeatedly state one's aims and ask politely to speak to someone in charge who can help. if the request is not met, firmly restate the request. do not move, but do not grow violent. accept that you may be mown down by the state. accept that if this were to happen, you will have won.

one day the entire country will refuse to repay its mortgages or loans and that day will see the nation reach a higher level of enlightenment

speak your brains

university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

whoa whoa, let's not get carried away

anyway, my words aren't enough. let's get the Voice of British Youth Left on the case, just for NRQ

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2010/11/young-scary-future-riot-crowd

Not challoping here, but that's a good piece.

3. turning up only to protest your own careerist concerns and letting the government fuck you in countless other, far more pernicious ways - no

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 4:04 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

specify

Louis - being earnest here - do you think the university system you are describing (in the humanities, I don't know about anything else) would actually further the study of the humanities, or increase the typical level of understanding achieved by current humanities students? Why?

humanities degrees: you do not need the student to attend university for these. put the lectures online. open the libraries. orient the courses entirely towards dissertations and theses. destroy the exam mentality. do the same for A-levels. allow free access to knowledge.

that's all fine. we have free access to knowledge. what we don't have is supervision, contact with other learners, deadlines. you need to be able to write an essay before you can write a dissertation.

students live independently among the people. they work part-time or they receive student welfare.

again, contact with other learners, collective enterprise, all of this matters.

campuses are an outdated and polarising conceit.

you're an outdated and polarising conceit.

those who choose not to be students are in the same situation and lead similar lives.

oil rig workers are not in the same situation as students

university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

it's 'a bit of both'

anyhow, the protest should have flowed naturally from a less controllable start-point. start it on westminster bridge. peacefully block traffic outside the houses of parliament. peacefully resist police intervention. repeatedly state one's aims and ask politely to speak to someone in charge who can help. if the request is not met, firmly restate the request. do not move, but do not grow violent. accept that you may be mown down by the state. accept that if this were to happen, you will have won.

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 4:18 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

'stuff happens' - donald rumsfeld

srsly, what is this 'should' shit? this sounds like a radiohead video anyway.

humanities degrees: you do not need the student to attend university for these
science degrees: the students attend science faculties and housing is provided

As a former science ("science") student whose friend group was largely composed of humanities students, I weep for your vision of the future

only by suggesting what we really want are we going to be in any way persuasive

LJ, I think the "we" in that sentence is optimistic. Who wants this?

university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

university is also about completing a bunch of tasks to a certain level of competence, with a certain depth of understanding and analysis, with a certain regularity.

specify

see: the benefits legislation, imposition of war economy, difficulty of living independently etc

oh lordy it's getting hot in here

also

protest should be positive and direct action should be witty, not primal.

1. fuck 'should'

2. breaking the windows of a building has been a sign of community disapproval in england since the 16th century

As a former science ("science") student whose friend group was largely composed of humanities students, I weep for your vision of the future

Why? Students of all kinds will be living around each other. Even better, they'll be living among full-time workers or unemployed, so there won't be a town/gown differential or stigma.

tbh lj's proposals sound more like 'abolish universities' than 'don't raise tuition fees'

stefan collini's lrb article last week p much nailed it -- and he kind of says, yes, ok, maybe we don't need *this* many residential/intensive/old-style-but-new universities, but that the expansion of post-school education is a good thing

but i think louis is out demolish a good thing out of guilt that it is the possession of a small elite, less so now than before, but even still, iow the university system of fifty years ago

extending that good thing would have been too expensive for the state, and what we have had since 1992 is a two-or-more-tier system. the question is, how do you extend the good thing -- insofar as you can -- not how do you tear everything down.

imo cutting all state money for teaching and imposing a massive debt burden on many thousands of people who really won't benefit from a university education (leaving aside the arguments made by collini about the rationale for the whole thing, with which i agree) is bad policy, and if a few windows get smashed, fuck it.

xpost. You don't think they're protesting those things? A demo this big accommodates lots of causes and frustrations, especially if they're already interconnected, as these are. The impetus might be tuition fees but I don't believe that's the only thing they were angry about.

see: the benefits legislation, imposition of war economy, difficulty of living independently etc

imposition of war economy happened in about 1916 iirc; yes the benefits legislation sux but that doesn't make this protest irrelevant: people on benefits have it easier than most of the world's population; not rly sure about last point -- id guess people on bennies are not independent? -- but make a banner and we'll see

Why? Students of all kinds will be living around each other. Even better, they'll be living among full-time workers or unemployed, so there won't be a town/gown differential or stigma.

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 1:48 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark

im a townie and frankly the students next door can eat one, no fuck that, two

though other students (some of them [crush thread territory]) im ok with

Louis - being earnest here - do you think the university system you are describing (in the humanities, I don't know about anything else) would actually further the study of the humanities, or increase the typical level of understanding achieved by current humanities students? Why?

It would ensure that those who really wanted to study humanities would do so, and that the study could be as solitary or communal as they wanted. As long as they have contacts who set them tasks and suggest reading, they could still do their stuff to a high level. The contents of any lecture are also found in books. Knowledge must be freely available.

Ah, Dorian, well yes, other things were being protested, of course, but then why define the protest towards a certain target? I was busy that day but otherwise I'd have certainly gone. I think the nature of protest needs better clarity though.

Some of what LJ describes sounds a lot like what the OU already does. They're obviously going to be winners out of the proposed legislation, maybe now is the time for them to up their game, expand and market themselves more towards young people.

That Collini essay is indeed excellent, and it's freely avialble online too: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n21/stefan-collini/brownes-gamble

xpost Ha, yes, students are intrinsically annoying to non-students wherever they live - keep 'em on the campuses out of harm's way.

this 'should' shit is my promotion of ideas based around impulses I have that I am throwing out there - it is not an absolute imperative and painting me as some sort of oppressor is ludicrous

I think students ought to (there) work part-time anyway, if only for 2 or 3 hours per day.

If they can, obviously. Don't wanna be forcing compulsory labour now!

It would ensure that those who really wanted to study humanities would do so, and that the study could be as solitary or communal as they wanted. As long as they have contacts who set them tasks and suggest reading, they could still do their stuff to a high level. The contents of any lecture are also found in books. Knowledge must be freely available.

you don't need universities at all on this basis. and perhaps they're overrated a bit, but they are also a place where new memes are created, not just where old ones are re-read. anyway, no, study cannot be as solitary as you want, at university -- part of the point is that you are in a community of learning, and need the input of others -- in complex ways -- to get to a high level.

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm - no
2. waging random violence - no

Am thinking that the day of direct action planned for the 24th is possibly going to be a combination of these two things.

2. breaking the windows of a building has been a sign of community disapproval in england since the 16th century

my first reaction to seeing footage was 'cooooool' but in hindsight it leaves me feeling empty

Students have been running poorly-attended, friendly-wendly, sit down protests for ten years now and while this is all well and good, the media, the government, businesses etc don't bat an eye-lid because, well a few people walking about with placards is hardly people power and can easily be ignored. When I attended university, student fees marches and anti-war marches were considered something of a joke, even among students, and I remember finding this very frustrating.

Whether smashing up a building was the right way to go about things is obviously debatable, but one can't deny it's brought attention to the subject for three days now - something peaceful protest would never do.

Also, fuck tory scum, yeah?

i only go to these things for the violence anyway

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm - no
2. waging random violence - no
3. turning up only to protest your own careerist concerns and letting the government fuck you in countless other, far more pernicious ways - no

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm = mass gathering within established legal framework, following known tradition, emphasis on continuity, legitimacy, common law of the land
2. what 'random violence' are you even talking about: all of the violence we have so far heard of has had very clear symbolic meaning, even when as w throwing stuff off the roof of a tower it's a) a dick move and b) counterproductive in that the likelihood you'll
3. it is natural that protest should coalesce around the nearest most obvious thing - that does not mean that it is the only thing under protest. (riots trigger by a rise in the price of butter go on to attack mills where the flour is adulterated e.g.)

* triggered

my first reaction to seeing footage was 'cooooool' but in hindsight it leaves me feeling empty

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 1:58 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

'you probably think this protest is about you'

making the political the personal

my first reaction to seeing footage was 'cooooool' but in hindsight it leaves me feeling empty

why?

ugh that above was 'in that the likelihood you'll hit one of your own is q high'

i think smashing the skulls of police officers is 'a bit much' in this context btw

imo cutting all state money for teaching and imposing a massive debt burden on many thousands of people who really won't benefit from a university education (leaving aside the arguments made by collini about the rationale for the whole thing, with which i agree) is bad policy, and if a few windows get smashed, fuck it.

...perhaps they're overrated a bit, but they are also a place where new memes are created, not just where old ones are re-read. anyway, no, study cannot be as solitary as you want, at university -- part of the point is that you are in a community of learning, and need the input of others -- in complex ways -- to get to a high level.

Please don't get me wrong. I think further education is incredibly valuable for many skeins of learning, and that these measures are atrocious, even despair-worthy. They show that the government is only concerned with the business of learning, not the cultural upkeep. And yes, I agree that some learning is best done in a communal spirit (although I think the students themselves ought to arrange this, and not entirely within the bounds of their subject; literature specialists should share with biochemists and philosophers). I think there should be tools to arrange this communality without confining students within very narrow strictures which can be taxed and taxed and taxed at the oppressor's discretion. Obviously, some organisation is needed. However, when it's ridden roughshod over like this I understand and share people's anger. I just think that violent protest is not as good an option as stoic protest - being the irritating prick who restates the desire to speak to whomever is in charge - and being the one with ideas to advance the cause rather than fight the status quo.

literature specialists should share with biochemists

i guess i ought to admire your idealism

I think there should be tools to arrange this communality without confining students within very narrow strictures which can be taxed and taxed and taxed at the oppressor's discretion.

dude. dude. really. dude.

"Today's top headline: Group of well-turned out students knock politely on door of number 10 asking to discuss student fees hike with David Cameron. They are told he's not in and to come back next week. More on this later..."

how do you suggest students self-organise to teach themselves what they do not yet know?

wish they'd explain how things would work in the black bloc's state-to-come

bollocks do you.

you know as well as i do that there is no 'black bloc' ideal of a state-to-come

The idea of Teresa May being the fashion police is still bringing me LOLs all these days later. Refuse to abide by dress code laws made by anyone in anachronistic Russell and Bromley kitten heels.

We aren't trying to be "hard" or to give ourselves a thrill.

haaaaaaaaaaa

sad these...whatever they are...never took off

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Society/Pix/pictures/2011/2/23/1298458450478/Home-secretary-Teresa-May-007.jpg

Inspired by Beckett's "Play" perhaps?

http://www.scottisharts.org.uk/resources/showcase/images/the%20arches/arches_t_play2.jpg

Is that Alistair Darling on the left?

how much dissent is there in the current coalition government?

Quite an interesting website which follows various "revolts".
http://www.revolts.co.uk/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/01/protest-chartists-moral-physical-wing

great piece - sums up both the conflicts within the protest movement and why we shouldn't get tied up in them

i really liked that, thanks for linking it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonathantaphouse/sets/72157626426693575/

that tesco in bristol is my local. solid branch imo. stoked (!!!) for a long hot summer.

raiding a squat at the end of a very hot day in part of town where (1) everyone has been outside in the nice weather drinking since, like, saturday (2) everyone is all #stokescroft #royalweddingcoverup #indymedia seems very silly imo.

this was utterly ridiculous timing, yes. the romantic ideologists version of stokes croft as progressive, re appropriated, culturally autonomous zone kinda gets shuttled back to ugh, crusties when faced with scenes like last nights. alright, fuck a tesco, sure, but certainly fuck a riot.

So what's really going on here? Unbelievable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/apr/27/tuition-fees-protest-alfie-meadows-charge

thought this was otm http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/15/kettling-radicalises-youth, even just from a pragmatic policing pov: "I say this to the police: why should protesters engage on your terms, when these are your terms?"

^^^I love Dan Hancox' writing.

Rally held to back cuts to reduce UK deficit

Speakers at the event in Old Palace Yard included political blogger Paul Staines who writes under the name Guido Fawkes, the director general of the Institute of Economic Affairs, Mark Littlewood, director of the TaxPayers' Alliance, Matthew Sinclair, and Nigel Farage MEP.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100087880/why-im-attending-the-rally-against-debt/

Alas, the protest was over by the time Toby Young had finished at the pirate musem. Still, it's the thought that counts.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/224121_10150196825106305_144144931304_7103355_6939605_n.jpg

350 people

never has post content gone so well with username, ned

Mark Littlewood

this guy really knows how to work the 'west midlands BNP councillor' look

http://imgur.com/3qhpJ

Think the guy with the 'Stop Spending Money We Don't Have' placard is an Arsenal fan looking for the Wenger Out black scarf march.

Or even

http://i.imgur.com/3qhpJ.jpg

Most charges dropped vs. Fortnum and Mason protesters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14189892

"We couldn't be bothered to go ahead because they were only going to get 16 month sentences anyway."

They're 'aving a go in Tottenham apparently.

Plastic bullets available to police for Wednesday's student protests

i really do struggle to understand the met's mindset sometimes

FFS... The worst bit about this is that while it would have been considered extreme/inconceivable just over a year ago to allow the shooting of rounds of bullets on student protesters, it's now not even that surprising.

index on censorship pretty much debunks this:

http://blog.indexoncensorship.org/2011/11/08/plastic-bullets-protest-london/

is the guardian worse than it used to be?

I'm not sure that's really a de-bunking, although I agree that Jenny Jones is going overboard. The Met are making threatening noises (there's nothing new in that either) - probably aimed more at looking tough for their political masters than at the students, but they are definitely making it clear how far they are prepared to go.

Perhaps the police should be clearer on their tactics and arsenal, but those who claim to be on the side of the protesters should be careful not to create unnecessary tension

To which I say "they started it".

OTM

fuck's sake.

obviously i'm loath to take twitter at its word automatically but the amount of reports i've seen of kettles forming in various places already...this time last year it was still a *shocking* tactic, but far from the police being held to account for their actions then, it's like kettling is their default first resort now. seriously what is going on here!

If I understand it correctly, they are currently being kettled while Billy Bragg plays some songs for them :(

:o

Think Laurie Penny is tweeting shit unverified shit about watercannons being used now.

when i say i am loath to trust twitter generally automatically, in the case of lolrie penny i pretty much assume the opposite of what she tweets

ed miliband, meanwhile, is tweeting about poppies. FUCKING USELESS

Ed Miliband isn't allowed to talk about anything until 5,000-odd people have confirmed that it's really a mainstream opinion. Then he can start talking like it's brave and controversial and leading from the front.

that's the most depressingly OTM summation of miliband's MO i've seen. the labour party seems not to understand that it is part of the problem

Um, I follow Laurie Penny and she hasn't tweeted anything about water cannons.

@PennyRed "We have also been informed by the City of London Police that if need be they will be deploying Water Cannons" - #9nov

@PennyRed So that's the kettle plan, and police plan use of water cannons. Stay safe, everyone. I'm heading down now.

Yes, but that's been reported elsewhere - I assumed you were saying she was tweeting that they were being used.

Nope. Still, given it's entirely unsubstantiated it still feels needlessly inflammatory.

Tents, Billy Bragg... and now Tom Morello at St Paul's. Blimey.

god love em but protest needs to get its fucking aesthetic together, this is embarrassing

protest needs to get its fucking aesthetic together <-- we are the 1%! :D

Billy Bragg supports the government, why wd he be involved in this shit?

think it might be time to call it all off for good