Finding out you're related to nefarious 18th century crooks: Classic or Dud?

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I have recently discovered that a distant antecedant of my family started a religious demonstration that "unintentionally" turned into the most bloody riot in London's history. (Which, in a bizarre twist of fate burned down the mansion which formerly stood on the piece of land where I now live.) The whole family was described by a contemporary historian and writer as "they were, and are, completely mad". Fantastic.

(Sub-text: What infamous crooks are *you* related to?)

(Sub-text for the more historically minded: The Gordon Riots: Classicke or Dudde?)

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 08:53 (twenty-two years ago)

No replying to my thread, are ye? BLOODY POPISTS!!! Burn them all!

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 08:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm related to a couple of semi-famous baby snatchers!

― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 08:59 (twenty-two years ago)

What, like Margaret Thatcher, baby snatcher?

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not aware that I'm related to any crooks but I very recently read KING MOB, the story of the Gordon Riots and very interesting it was too, not leasst in its incidental stuff about what London was like back then. Was I on about this last night? I think I perhaps was.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:01 (twenty-two years ago)

One of my ancestors was hanged for stealing a horse.

On the other side, a whole lot lived in Barbados from the mid-1700's, and I would imagine did not confine their trading activities entirely to sugar.

― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:06 (twenty-two years ago)

My mum always claims she is the direct descendant of one of Queen Liz One's official PAID PIRATES. Arrrrrr.

Also, some great-aunt on the same side of the family is (apparently genuinely) descended from Charlotte Corday, the French Revolutionary woman who stabbed Jean-Paul Marat in his bath. Keep away from me at FAPs.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Very interesting book, that, in fact, it's one of sources I've been reading lately.

Irony number one: The Gordons were notorious for being both Catholic and Jacobite. Yet Lord George Gordon started a fanatical uber-protestant movement and later converted to Judaism. Some Freudian issues there, perhaps? Classic manic depressive from many descriptions of his behaviour. Nice to have proof it's genetic,

Irony number two: Many of the "madder" issues that Gordon became involved with later in life - prison reform, supporting the American and French Revolutions, abolishionist, etc. - seem to us highly sensible ,though perhaps ahead of their time.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I am currently reading EP Thompson's 'Making Of The English Working Class'. Lots of stuff about Church and King mobs attacking Jacobin groups in there.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm related to (Irish) horse thieves who apparently supplied Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid with Arab quarter horses so they were always able to outrun The Law (who presumably didn't have such fine horses).

I heard this from a drunk relative so it must be true.

― rener (rener), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

i am related to a long line of irish republicans, so am the polar opposite of kate. i say we have a massive ilx sectarian throwdown...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Drunk relative stories are always true. But funny how drunk relatives in my family go on and on about Flora MacDonald, but never mention Mad Lord George.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:16 (twenty-two years ago)

is king mob the one where they end up lapping flaming gin from the gutters!

― prima fassy (bob), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i always thought she had something of the mentalist puritan about her, anyway...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Yup! Pure, distilled gin (I forget what the term is) - highly poisonous and highly flammable!

It keeps mentioning a work of fiction called Barnaby Rudge, which I am going to have to read now.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Who are you calling a mentalist puritan? POPIST!!! Off with yer head!

Off with the heads of all these foul poppists.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

puritans = pioneers in hating fun!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

'horace walpole writes at the time "as yet there are more persons killed by drinking than by ball or bayonet"

i got this from an old issue of the esteemed historical journal dazed and confused

no rockery!

― prima fassy (bob), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(Strangely Lord Gordon's hatred of fun, I mean, Poperie, did not stop him from enjoying whores in their multitudes)

GOD, I HATE FUN!!!

Is Rockism the Poperie of the 21st Century?

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

barnaby rudge is well worth reading...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

on a drunken whim my dad once stole a truck full of humanitarian aid donations and spent the following sober year flogging the bounty

― prima fassy (bob), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Who wrote it? (And do they hate fun?)

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

dazed and confused not so worth reading...

having said that, rankin wadell and jefferson hack do sound like they could have been fundamentalist religious nutballs in a previous life. and no, rockists = prods. papists always knew how to shake that ass.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

JivePope - Say that mass, shake dat ass!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

whoa it's like... you know rankin's surname!

― prima fassy (bob), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

barnaby rudge = one of dickens' best moments all about rioting in london...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockism is the New Puritanism, hooray!

My ex-housemate was a New Puritan. As was my ex-boyfriend. One listened to nothing but bleepy electronica and the other only listened to weird Chinese opera-rock. So this theory holdeth not water..

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

whoa it's like... you know rankin's surname!

yeah, it comes in more useful than you could ever imagine < / irony >
funnily enough, have never actually seen it signed on a FUCKING CHEQUE!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:43 (twenty-two years ago)

mm tell me more

― prima fassy (bob), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Dickens = The Clash?

White riot, I wanna riot, white riot, I wanna riot of my own...

Up with Rockism! Down with Popperie! We will wear blue cockades, I mean, ringer t-shirts and march through Westminster singing Stooges songs. Excellent.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't think they had cheques at dazed and confused, sure people only work there for the glamour of it all

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

bottom line: have never seen cheque < / disclosure >

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

did anyone where white cockades?

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:47 (twenty-two years ago)

where = wear; I = fool

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:47 (twenty-two years ago)

(I'm not a very good rockist. I secretly love Fame Accademy. But I support the Rockist candidate on Fame Accademie!)

WE ARE KEEPING THIS THREAD ON THE TOPIC OF RIOTING AND ROCKISM!!! THERE SHALL BE NO DISCUSSION OF MUSIC JOURNALISM HERE, FUCK OFF WITH IT BACK TO ILM, KEEP IT OFF MY THREAD!!!

Wow, that was a little bit of Lord George's oratory skills took hold of me there.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Up with Rockism! Down with Popperie! We will wear blue cockades, I mean, ringer t-shirts and march through Westminster singing Stooges songs. Excellent.

down with pot pourri would be better. worrying thing is that i can see you actually doing this kate. good to have you back btw...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Cavaliers vs Roundheads - which side were the rockists?

I contend it was the Roundheads, as the Cavaliers had better threads.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm only back until I find a job... sigh. Unlike Lord George, I don't have the Duke of Gordon supporting me.

(18th Century Prisons sound fantastic, if you ask me. Well, not if you were poor, but if you were a rich political prisoner like DeSade or Lord George, you got to live in comfort, and have rip-roaring ole parties. Well, except for the Gaol Fever, but that's what happens if you have a prison on top of the River Fleet.)

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

it's not called "96 theses against rockism" for nothing

― fifth monarchy mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

de sade > chatroom perv

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(the theses were *for* rockism and against popperie actually, but never mind...)

Can you imagine how much fun Sade would have had on the internet?

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Right. I've applied for all the bootie-analysing jobs that I could find. And now I've got to go and find something to do for the next two hours. Maybe I'll go and buy Barnaby Rudge.

More rioting, more anti-popperie, more crooks please...

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

barnaby rudge will be pretty cheap - i think you can get an everyman classic for about £3...

anyone fancy a riot this weekend?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 10:11 (twenty-two years ago)

all-singing, all-dancing papist rave monkeys = in my corner

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Clerkenwell Green is the traditional starting place for such thinks.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Shame about all the bicycle couriers and trustafarians - what a radical crowd (they wish)...

― Mark C (Mark C), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark, it's where the Karl Marx Library is and pretty much any anti-corp march kicks off from there.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Suzy, I know.

I am descended from someone who was shipped to Australia. It's possible half the Australian ILX massive is therefore descended from me.

― Mark C (Mark C), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 11:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Well... Australia is the world's gayest country

;)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

My mum always claims she is the direct descendant of one of Queen Liz One's official PAID PIRATES. Arrrrrr.

Oddly enough, so does mine.

― caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Mm, this reminds me I need to dig up the transcribed newspaper article about the great-great-great uncle killed by his brother in late 19th century San Francisco. His name?

"Black Dick" Raggett

My.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Gentlemen, Photoshop away...

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 12:14 (twenty-two years ago)

were your family like the forerunners to the brothers who owned that porn theatre in sf, one killing the other in a fit of rage and jealousy back in the 1970s, ned?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I can dream.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 12:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm related (on my Irish Catholic side, of all things) to Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

and I'm also related, through marriage, to Herbert Hoover. I married him.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Did he give you good laissez-faire love?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

memo to Dorothy Parker: I could tell.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I had a greatx3 grandfather who was a (gang?) lord of sorts in China. Some urchin picked a fruit off one of his trees, and Godfather crushed the guy's hands. (I may be making this second part up.)

Also, my relation to Matt Groening to thread.

― Leee (Leee), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

A girl I know is related relatively closely to John Wilkes Booth!

Also, this thread reminds me of "how I'm the 18th pale descendant, of some old queen, or other."

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Spencer's not DEAD, boys!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

none here, but kate, that family description is just fun.

― Maria (Maria), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned Kelly, apparently

― luna (luna.c), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I am allegedly related to Ulysses S. Grant.

― Chris P (Chris P), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm psuedo-related to Bob Costas, who is a very bad, horrible, boring man and I hate this.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 24 September 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm (apparently) related (on me mum's side)to Earl Grey, of the tea of the same name. Apparently he was a bit of a gropey mofo, and delighted in bothering and leching up to the help.

The Stuchberys (me dad's side) hid Queen Elizabeth I at their modest little manor when she was on the run from Mary.

Luna, that's too cool. Kelly's sisters had lots of kids, so it's very probable.

― Mike Stuchbery, Wednesday, 24 September 2003 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, the girlfriend is (apparently) ALSO distantly related to Robert the Bruce. Her origins are also Irish catholic, via the American N/W.

― Mike Stuchbery, Wednesday, 24 September 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Not a blood relation, but my godfather's cousin was General George Patton

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 25 September 2003 05:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a defrocked vicar, several Irish horse thieves and gamblers and a great great etc grandfather who was hung in Dartmoor for stealing sheep.

My mum's boyfriend's family were a notorious family of crime in the no man's land between England and Scotland (i.e. Carlisle) in the 18th C.

― Anna (Anna), Thursday, 25 September 2003 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

No man's land between England and Scotland = Northumbria, Cumbria, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire, Derbyshire and Lincolnshire. Especially Derbyshire today.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 25 September 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

No man's land between England and Scotland = the Debatable Lands (Carlisle, Cumbria, and the Borders)?

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 25 September 2003 10:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Ironically, an ascestor on my mother's side convicted an ancestor on my father sides for horse theivery.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 25 September 2003 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I was born in 1586 as a boy, but became female after sleeping for 7 days and 7 nights. I saw the coming and going of the 17th and 18th centuries in my huge country house, my father's residence in Blackfriars and my more modest dwelling in Mayfair. I fell in love with a woman who betrayed me and fled to Moscow, and a man whose only desire was to round the Horn as often as possible.

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 25 September 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

What a load of crooks you all are! My goodness!

Most notorious crook families of Scottish Borders = Armstrongs, Bells and Grahams. (Why yes, I have been reading up on Scottish history lately.) What did they do with them when Scotland and England were finally united? Why, shipped them off to Northern Ireland. What a brilliant idea!

Anyway...

Is anyone rioting on Saturday? I see posters, but they seem to be about Hyde Park, which is a bad place for a riot, what with Tyburn Gallowes being RIGHT THERE and everything.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 25 September 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

where and when is the riot going to be? i'm in... dancing catholics against guitar-wielding calvinists

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 25 September 2003 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Peter Easton was a privateer from pre revoultionary war, somewhere arround maine--when the war came he fled to do similiar things in newfoundland, and then he got married to a local girl, who had children who married and moved to ontario...

― anthony easton (anthony), Thursday, 25 September 2003 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Yep Kate, that's it. My mum's bloke is a Graham, as, I think, roughly 50 per cent of people from that area.

― Anna (Anna), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Either someone in the mists of time got around a bit or only 10 people live in the badlands (Carlisle).

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I recall from reading a Carlisle paper that one of the most pressing social issues in Cumbria is the restricted gene pool.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

my grandfather Merl
was an awful bankrobber,
a three-time loser

who spent many years
in prison, where he studied
existentialists

we met him once, he
was a truckdriver now, and
had a hearty laugh

my mom was freaked out,
she had heard that he was dead,
couldn't talk too much

when he left I played
the clash song 'bankrobber' and
she laughed while crying

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

For some reason I read that as a William Carlos Williams poem.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 25 September 2003 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

What Stelfox said. One of my relatives is quite famous in international criminality circles. I don't want to discuss it further than that - I'm terrified of A$CR0FT, but I have mentioned it in the past.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 25 September 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

My sister married into a family that is distantly related to the British royals. And I used to date a man who's father was Jack London's godson.

My claim to fame: I once sat on Bill Cosby's lap, on a plane flight. Apparently I wouldn't stop screaming in coach, and so Bill (yeah, we're on a first-name basis, now) came back and took me up to first class and entertained me. I remember none of this.

And I once went fishing with Le*nard Lake, of Le*nard Lake/Ch*rl*s Ng infamy. And when the cops were looking for, well, evidence, for Ng's trial, they dug-up part of the land where I was living with my boyfriend, which happened to be right next to the L*ke/Ng residence.

― I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Friday, 26 September 2003 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm a direct descendant of John Hunt Morgan who led some of the northern raids into Kentucky and Indiana during the US Civil War.

According to my grandma, he got captured and later executed after being caught in a house with someone else's wife. Can't be sure about this part, as they seem to leave it out of the couple of civil war books I have read.

― earlnash, Friday, 26 September 2003 10:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Gosh...well my maternal grandfather was a pretty big (okay, very big) politician in India but I absolutely never bring this up since I have no false pride about this (though I can't say the same for my other family members). And I would not feel comfortable discussing it here either, since I know Googlists would find his name, and thus mine, pretty quickly...

Pushing that entire immediately-related matter aside...

I still have some royale in me as I'm directly descended from Maharaja Suraj Mal, the Raja of Bharatpur from the early 1700s, who fought the Mughals and built palaces in Rajasthan, such as in Deeg: www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010325/spectrum/main3.htm

― Vic (Vic), Friday, 26 September 2003 10:47 (twenty-two years ago)

ok so why does the thread always die when i post, u all hate me dont you. oneof my other distant relatives was involved in some gang warfare and was attacked by a rival hang, but he wound up shooting himself one day by accident when he was cleaning his rifle

― Vic (Vic), Friday, 26 September 2003 11:17 (twenty-two years ago)

It's OK, Vic. The thread didn't die because you posted, it died because it was my thread. My threads always die a cold and unloved death. Wah.

― kate (kate), Friday, 26 September 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Kate, that;s nonsense, you know if you had asked about 18th century dirty droneclassical composers or something, it would keep going endlessly... i'm glad you're back btw and i swear i will finish that mail/our chart to you soon - i might even post it, if u don't mind, but run it by you first

― Vic (Vic), Friday, 26 September 2003 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps the thread's just quietened down because all those with a dubious history have either posted about it or AREN'T TELLIN'.

― Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 26 September 2003 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

In what way is a thread with 88 posts and counting 'dead'?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 26 September 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

my maternal grandfather was a pretty big (okay, very big) politician in India

Vic's last name is secretly 'Nehru!'

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 26 September 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

No!!!!!! It's extremely ironic that you say that Ned, since my grandfather - who's biography can be found here - http://pmindia.nic.in/formerbody.htm - (clue: his first name starts with a "C" but he has a last name too) opposed Nehru on almost every issue, especially when it came to agricultural concerns, as has been mentioned here: http://www.upportal.com/politics/political_history_inst_seed.asp, and also in the second editorial here http://www.tribuneindia.com/50yrs/final2.htm

Nehru was a privileged Brahmin boy!!! Despite all the fancy-power stuff (and the original dynastic ancestry) ...we are just "peasants" in the Indian caste system (agrarians) and he was just a "peasant leader" of the Jats (our sub-caste)!! The Nehru family is well-hated in my family, especially wicked Indira who put my grandfather in jail when she fucked democracy for the sake of her evil Emergency - I am supposed to hate all of them!!!!!!!

― Vic (Vic), Friday, 26 September 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i am distantly related to early '90s betressed Nelson twins. i hang my head in shame.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Friday, 26 September 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

he in second sentence of second para of last post = my gfather

― Vic (Vic), Friday, 26 September 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

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