Mark Waid doing the JLA vs Grant Morrison doing the JLA vs The Darkness vs Def Leppard

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discuss.

― thom west (thom w), Monday, 6 October 2003 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Grant Morrison is more Andrew WK than either of those: he has come to show us the path into the new world.

I was actually rereading Rock of Ages yesterday, which I understand caused a drop off in WEAKSAUCE readers due to having five different plots all the the same time. The method in which Darkseid finally cops it is still beautiful and joyous to me.

I was never that fond of Mark Waid due to exposure to his number one fan ever (Vic may know the lady of whom I speak), and Kingdom Come didn't do him any favours. I think I also own an issue or two from his fill-in slot in the middle of Grant's run. Not terrible, not comparable.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I was gratified that Vic's irritation with said fan continues to smoulder FIVE YEARS after he last went near a comics newsgroup.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Grant == Jesus
Waid == Not Jesus

Darkness == Meh.
Def Leppard == MEH!

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

ARE YOU READY TO MEH?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I will give a special prize to the person who scientifically proves that Grant Morrison = Def Leppard.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Grant Morrison isn't Def Leppard. But I can probably probe he's actually Stephen Patrick Morrissey's evil twin.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

If you've ever seen him, he looks like Professor X's demented Neo Nazi skinhead nephew.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.stevenseverin.com/images/react/morrison01.jpg http://www.stevenseverin.com/images/react/morrison01.jpg (in case it doesn't link)
http://heroes.chez.tiscali.fr/d-talks/images/morrison.jpg http://heroes.chez.tiscali.fr/d-talks/images/morrison.jpg

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Matt Maxwell to thread.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 6 October 2003 13:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i think 'i believe in a thing called love' and the "people of earth - this is SUPERMAN!" moment in the first grant trade are sort of comparable moments. however the other JLA trades in newcastle-under-lyme library are Mark Waid, mostly, and in JLA: Year One there's a bit where they all take their masks off which is surely just as self-aware as similar big superhero moments in morrison's version, or not. I mean, they both are aware that this is a cliché that's being indulged in (as one imagines Def Leppard are/were) (I couldn't think of any actual current hair metal acts, unless Def Leppard still are, which is why the versuses don't quite work) but the Darkness and Morrison both carry this overtone of something which could turn into YOU LOVE IT YOU SLAGS but doesn't.

― thom west (thom w), Monday, 6 October 2003 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I think possibly the question I wanted to ask is "It it more or less valiant to point out the (failures) (limitations) (impossibilities) of your (genre) (work) (art) than it is simply to accept them?"

― thom west (thom w), Monday, 6 October 2003 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

also i think the answer is necessarily different in all cases

― thom west (thom w), Monday, 6 October 2003 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

so nevermind

― thom west (thom w), Monday, 6 October 2003 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The clue is in the fact that it's 'Year One' - whole subtext of Waid's stuff is look-how-cool-superheroes-used-to-be-sigh, whereas Morrison's outlook was more look-how-cool-superheroes-CAN-STILL-BE-yay!

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 6 October 2003 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark Waid's JLAs that I've read were okay, but Grant's are very close to being my favourite superhero comics ever - they're certainly my favourite mainline superhero comics since Kirby left the FF.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 6 October 2003 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

HAhaha I had not thought about EW-C/R in YEARS, thanks Tom/Andrew!

Mark Waid irritates me because he wrote a whole bunch of horrible X-Men stories that people then decided to blame on Scott Lobdell.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 October 2003 17:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I liked the Giffen&DeMatties' JLI a lot more than Morrison's JLA, although I read the latter as an adult, not a 14-year-old fanboy, which obviously diminished the impact.
I don't think Morrison's ever bettered his work on Animal Man and Doom Patrol -- what do you think? Great cliffhangers in New X-Men at the moment, tho'.

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Monday, 6 October 2003 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

p.s. Urge Overkill kick the Darkness, etc.

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Monday, 6 October 2003 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't been impressed with either. Though I will say that Waid's writing serves the art better than the plot.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 6 October 2003 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

TS: The Darkness (comic)vs. The Darkness(band)

I've never experienced either (so I guess I'll pick The Darkness, obv.).

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 6 October 2003 18:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Grant Morrison=probably wishes he was a rock star + Def Leppard=probably wished they were superheroes?

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 6 October 2003 18:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Since when were they not superheroes? They have a one-armed drummer who still has THE POWER.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 6 October 2003 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Does that= Snap!=superheroes (warning: another rant about the misuse of the equals sign impending!)

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 6 October 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

How many of you have heard Grant's indie band from years back, the Fauves?

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 6 October 2003 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

What about Warren Ellis's: Dirty Three?

― Leee (Leee), Monday, 6 October 2003 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Grant Morrison=probably wishes he was a rock star + Def Leppard=probably wished they were superheroes?
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!
You win a prize!

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think Morrison's ever bettered his work on Animal Man and Doom Patrol -- what do you think?
His best work is actually The Invisibles, and the Flex Mentallo and Marvel Boy Miniseries. AM and DP were him still in his "weird for the sake of weird"-era, Invisibles/Flex Mentallo/Marvel Boy was him in his "still weird but with a method to his madness"-era.
So yes, he has bettered himself.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Marvel Boy is AWFUL Lord C!!!!!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

why am i suddenly reminded that there's a Hellblazer flick coming out next year?

and it has Keanu and that fuck from Bush starring in it.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

well, at least it will all-around suck, instead have tantalizingly good parts to bitterly remind you of how cool it COULD have been.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i give the odds that they actually have him wear a trenchcoat as 1 in 3.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

will he be american?
I kinda hope so. Since I don't want to hear KR with an accent. But if they're going to make it American, why bother at all since Constantine's Britness is such a huge part of his character?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

They won't miss the chance to put Keanu in a trenchcoat, if he is playing JC.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Tying this neatly together, GM's two-issue stint on Hellblazer (the priest with the nuclear missile on his head, etc) is one of my fave comics ever.

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there anyone here who thought Invisibles was a dud? (too self-concious, no sense of humanity, and most of all too trent reznor)

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:37 (twenty-one years ago)

They won

yeah, but $10 sez it'll be black.

http://www.temple.edu/isllc/newfolk/hb.jpg http://www.davidlynch.de/dsting.jpg
Sting vs Keanu FITE!

hee hee. from DC's Who's Who: "Occupation: World-saver"

and was it Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis that had a thing for the weirder/sicker villains in HB?

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

...too Trent Reznor? do not see it at all.

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:41 (twenty-one years ago)

too worst-faults-of-Jerry-Cornelius-and-Quentin-Tarentino in places

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

QT is probably a more apt comparison. I like the simplicity of his earlier stuff, before he was burdened with the responsiblity of being Grant Morrison.
Plus, he writes straight-edge characters much better than his anti-heroes.

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)

i liked the first volume a lot. bought all of the second volume and thought "eh". read the third volume in a store and thought it was the best of them by miles.

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:56 (twenty-one years ago)

his sense of subtlety seems to switch itself on and off at random sometimes.

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Marvel Boy* is AWFUL Lord C!!!!!
Bah! There's just enough cheese to make it cool.
The Bannermen! Oubliette! Hexus the Living Corporation! The Mindless One!
Brilliant shit from cover to cover.
Between "8:20. I now declare mankind obsolete." and
"Welcome to the capital city of the New Kree Empire."
not a bum note in it.

* Note=(I mean the 6-issue mini-series from 2001, not the crummy ongoing one from the 80s.)

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Chuck I thought Invisibles was overrated.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Me too - it's among my least favourite GM title. JLA is about as opposite to that as anything he has done, and it's my favourite of his.

Along with, of course, the brilliantly edited St Swithin's Day...

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

..shameless.

What about the Invisibles do people overrate?

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Thoughts:

1) The _Year One_ mini-series WAS a throwback series; blaming it for that seems kinda silly (unless Tom's just trying to further his anti-Waid agenda thing) (if there is / was such an agenda)
2) Scott Lobdell deserves all the blame folks can muster, and then some (except for whatever blame Bob Harras deserves); if people want to blame him for Waid's shitty X-Men stuff, I'm all for it
3) Marvel Boy was disappointing, though the art was swell (& I still wouldn't mind seeing a Marvel Boy II)
4) JLA: Earth 2 is the best Morrison straight-up superhero story (that I can currently recall)

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the Invisibles is the best and most important comic book series ever, but that's not overrating it, it's just seeing things clearly :)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan, that only contributed to about 5% of Lobdell's total culpability for horrible X-Men stories, y'know ;-).

― Barima (Barima), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave beat me to it.

Leee, I think you mean ADAM Warren's Dirty hree.

― Barima (Barima), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not berating Year One David - I don't think I ever read the whole thing but I enjoyed it more than all Waid's other stuff, it was a fun read. I was just pointing out why the 'iconic' moments in YO weren't as effective as the iconic moments in JLA. It's like if the Strokes were to actually cover the Velvets it would be rubbish compared to a new Strokes song that sounds a bit like them.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 10:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, the Invisibles is the defining Grant work to me, but then again it was the first thing I read of his (after Kill Your Boyfriend anyway) and basically what got me back into comics. It's not perfect (it's his fifth album double cd/quadruple vinyl release after all), but it seems like it contains everything he wanted to deal with at the time, and the fact that it's (at times) a great big sprawling mess of ideas and sometimes contradictory themes is part of the fun. Some of his other stuff may be better executed, but the ambition and the comprehensiveness of the Invisibles really goes a long way with me.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

2) Scott Lobdell deserves all the blame folks can muster, and then some (except for whatever blame Bob Harras deserves); if people want to blame him for Waid's shitty X-Men stuff, I'm all for it
I agree. Even though he started out with alot of promise, the convoluted mega-multitiered storyarcs were getting frigging ridiculous. (Hint to Lobdell if he googles his own name in this thread: When your mega-arc gets so huge and unweildy that you have to break it into three seperate mega-arcs, it's time to scale back to something managable.)

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Nope, Warren Ellis. It's from AMG, which we know is never wrong.

― Leee (Leee), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Nowhere did I say that Lobdell was blameless. I said that there was a period of time where the most common example of Lobdell's suckiness and tenuous grasp on the X-Men (Cannonball sulks in a tree) was actually done by Waid.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Nowhere did I say that you were not saying Lobdell was blameless; I'm just saying it's more convenient to funnel the blame into one sponge instead of actually attempting to attribute blame that was wrongfully misattributed. Yeah. Fuck, just channel the blame unto the X-Men editors (Harras et al). Also, Dan et al, I really recommend going to your local Borders & checking out recent Uncanny X-Men trades for exemplary instances of "not getting it". I'll even buy you the overpriced coffee drink of your choice (if you're nice).

Re: Waid & Morrison & iconic moments - while I'm most definitely enjoying his current run on Fantastic Four, I do get that sense of lacking oomph during BIG MOMENTS (of which there have been a few), but I think that works in a sense of keeping things on an even keel. Morrison, however, definitely has a knack for The Moment (and The Line).

Don't mind me, though - I'm just reading the 1st 12 issues of _Planetary_ and basking in its awesomeness.

Also - should I buy that Darkness album? It's cheap, and I don't mind the rock.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 October 2003 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't believe it's the same Warren Ellis.

― Ian Johnson (orion), Thursday, 9 October 2003 02:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I believe that's the joke.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 October 2003 02:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I do actually rate JLA quite high, which is a tribute to Morrison's writing - the art was terrible. Now if Bryan Hitch or Frank Quitely (or Phil Jiminez!) was drawing it...

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 9 October 2003 07:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, Dan et al, I really recommend going to your local Borders & checking out recent Uncanny X-Men trades for exemplary instances of "not getting it".

HAHA I already know about Uncanny's spectacular problems! I think it was the moment when I flipped through an issue and saw "Archangel and Husk snuggle NEKKID" that made me say, "Hmm, the is spectacular in its sheer crapitude." Then the werewolves burst in and I thought, "Okay, how can you add werewolves to something and make it WORSE?" Nutpunches for everyone!"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 9 October 2003 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

DID YOU KNOW that, in addition to that nutpunchiness, Angel is now a healer? As in he has healing powers? Woo dog. Or wolf.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 October 2003 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha yes I remember that now! Didn't he learn that while caressing Husk's nubile 14-year-old breasts or in some other similarly inappropriate situation?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 9 October 2003 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

"....but i was checking for lumps! I swear!"

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 9 October 2003 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Preferring The Invisibles to GM's pre-Invisibles stuff (or to JLA for that matter) is like preferring Pat Mills when he decided that every story should have a pagan eco-anarchist in it.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 9 October 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

No it isn't.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 10 October 2003 09:35 (twenty-one years ago)

five years pass...

No it fucking isn't go read Beano

― Niles Caulder, Friday, 17 October 2008 12:32 (sixteen years ago)

ABC WArriors (FIRST OBV) had that element in it! Expand yr thrillpower, Tom

― Niles Caulder, Friday, 17 October 2008 12:34 (sixteen years ago)

settle down, chief.

― Jo-Jo The Dog-Faced Plumber (sic), Friday, 17 October 2008 13:54 (sixteen years ago)

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