Is this evidence of Misogyny in Comics (Re: the Women in Refrigerators list)

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Courtesy of Women in Refrigerators
Not every woman in comics has been killed, raped, depowered, crippled, turned evil, maimed, tortured, contracted a disease or had other life-derailing tragedies befall her, but given the following list (originally compiled by Gail, with later additions and changes), it's hard to think up exceptions: All of Savage Dragon's girlfriends (dead) Alysande Stuart (dead) Amethyst (blinded, merged with Gemworld, destroyed in LSH; became a power-hungry witch in Book of Fate) Apparition (one of her three bodies dead, soul bound to boyfriend) Aquagirl (dead) Arisia (dead) Aurora (Multiple Personality Disorder, depowered) Batgirl I (paralyzed) Batwoman (dead) Betty Banner (abused, changed into a harpy, multiple miscarriages, dead) Mrs. Brian Banner, Bruce's mother (murdered by her abusive husband) Black Canary I (dead) Black Canary II (tortured, made infertile, depowered) Blink (dead) Bluebird (dead) Buf from X-Man (crippled) Candy Southern (dead) Captain Marvel II/Photon (depowered, ceded code name to a male hero) Carol Ferris/Star Sapphire (turned into a villain by the Zamarons, possessed by the Predator) Celsius (insane, dead, called delusional liar) Christine Helvin of Troublemakers (victim of date rape, discovered she could never have children because she was no longer human) Courtney Ross (dead) Crimson Fox (both sisters dead) Dart (crippled) Dawn Allen (dead) Dawnstar (wings cut off, possessed by another persona) Diamond Lil (kidnapped, experimented on by own government, developed benign breast tumor) Domino (kidnapped, tortured) Dove II (dead) Dr. Midnight of Infinity, Inc. (dead) Elasti-Girl (only original Doom Patroller to stay dead) Electrocute (dead) Elektra (the real one... dead) Element Girl (dead) Enchantress of Suicide Squad - originally a heroine (turned evil, insane, depowered?) Firebelle (dead) Firestar (powers were sterilizing her) Frances Kane/Magenta (stalker complex) Fury II (child kidnapped, husband killed twice, insane) Gwen Stacy (dead) Hawkwoman (depowered) Hellcat (dead) Huntress I (dead) Huntress II (sexually abused) Ice (dead) Illyana Rasputin (kidnapped and raised by demons, aged, de-aged, dead) Invisible Woman (miscarriage of second child) Jade (lost natural powers) Jarella (dead) Jean DeWolff (dead) Jean Loring Palmer ("nervous breakdown") Jet of New Guardians (died in battle after contracting HIV) Jocasta (deactivated - more than once) Karen Page (addicted to drugs, made porn films, infected with HIV, dead) Katma Tui (dead) Kinetix (depowered twice, catatonic) Kole (dead) Lady Flash (evil, dead) Lady Quark (dead) Laurel Gand (dead) Laurel Kent (revealed to be an evil robot, dead) Linda Park (kidnapped, removed from history) Looker (now a vampire) Madelyn Pryor (clone, brood mare, demon queen, dead, brought back) Mantis (child taken away, dead) Marlo Chandler -- Rick Jones' wife (former prostitute, killed and brought back mindless; got better) Marrina (insane, dead) Mentalla of LSH (dead) Mera (insane, child murdered) Mirage of Team Titans (impregnated by rape) Mockingbird (abducted and mind-manipulated into a relationship, dead) Moira MacTaggert (diseased) Ms. Marvel I/Warbird (mind-controlled, impregnated by rape, powers and memories stolen, cosmic-powered then depowered, alcoholic - SHEESH!) Ms. Marvel II (became a monster in Fantastic Four, de-monstered but enslaved by Dr. Doom, depowered) Mystek of JLTF (dead) Namorita (revealed to be a clone, reverted to a more primal Atlantean form) Negative Woman (depowered) Nightshade (depowered) Nightwind (dead) Nova II/Frankie Raye (dead) Phoenix I (evil-dead-who knows) Power Girl (depowered, magically impregnated, made vulnerable to unprocessed natural materials... like sharp sticks) Psylocke (eyes removed, eviscerated, depowered, mind-swapped) Rachel Summers/Phoenix II (lobotomized) Raven (sometimes evil, sometimes dead) Red Guardian II (kidnapped and brainwashed into the love-slave of a super-villain) Redwing of Team Titans (dead) Revanche (dead) Rogue (just plain messed up) Roulette (dead) Scarlet Witch (children 'die'/vanish/are lost because they are figments of her imagination) Serpentine Shrinking Violet (lost a leg in Giffen's Legion) Shvaughn Erin (turned into a man) Silver Sorceress (dead) Snowbird (child and husband murdered, insane, dead) Spider-Woman I (dead for a while, depowered) Starfire (raped, tortured, enslaved; forced into marriage... twice) Storm (depowered, repowered, periodically crazy to one degree or another) Supergirl, pre-Crisis (dead) Supergirl, PAD version (lost her invisibility and most of her shapeshifting) SW6 Projectra (dead) Tarot (dead, brought back w/life bound to an evil man) Threnody (dead) Tigra (devolved into cat-thing) Triplicate Girl (one body killed, one presumed dead but revealed to be Glorith's pawn) Wildcat II (dead) Wolfsbane (locked in werewolf form for awhile, needs major therapy) Wonder Girl I/Troia/Darkstar (identity and powers stripped from her multiple times) Wonder Woman (killed, revived, but lost goddess powers) Zatanna (powers severely limited)

Also Liz Tremaine from Swamp thing ended up pretty messed circa issue #53 (I think)

DISCUSS....

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 13 October 2003 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark Millar wrote in and said that the idea of such a list is misleading because the number of men who've had similarly bad fortunes outnumber this list, which albeit is of an explicitly more sexual nature.

Then Mark Waid argues that percentage-wise, female characters have a more abusive track-record.

― Leee (Leee), Monday, 13 October 2003 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

My own opinion is that given the predilection of drawing women with your stereotypical superhero-comic-bimbo mold, misogyny is pretty apparent. Writing-wise is a different matter, but as long as the art is bimboish, the misogyny persists.

More recently, though, male writers (Bendis, Morrison, Milligan, Ellis... noticing a trend here, they're mostly from the UK) have been writing better women-as-characters, notably mah boi Greg Rucka. (Except for his run on Detective Comics (and even then he went out of his way at least once to write from a woman's POV), every series of his centers around a woman.) What makes Rucka superspecial is that he recognizes pampering a female character is ideologically no better than slapping her around.

― Leee (Leee), Monday, 13 October 2003 23:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I was talking about how Guns and Roses video for 'November Rain' (which I love watching) is misogynist and was told that it wasn't misogynistic at all, it was romantic. I thought in the 'modern world' everybody knew that killing off your girlfriend in fiction was misogynistic, even if she was killed by 'baddies'. I tried to link it to 'I used to love her, but I had to kill her' but my point was rebuffed.

― m.s (m .s), Monday, 13 October 2003 23:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Phoebe Zeit-Geist to thread!

― Sean Thomas (sgthomas), Monday, 13 October 2003 23:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Well a helluvalot of comics characters (both male and female) have been killed, depowered, crippled, turned evil, maimed or tortured;
But I can only think of two examples of a male being raped in a comic.
1) Apollo in "The Authority" and
2) Herr Starr in "Preacher"
and the Apollo Rape is only speculative.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Look at the crime statistics and I think you'll find that that reflects society.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

True. True.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

(re: crime statistics... how many people are "depowered" or "turned evil" every year in this country?)

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 01:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh yeah, I hate that. I got turned evil last week. Luckily it got better.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 01:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah. Whats you all got to remember: Purple Ray makes you Evil, Green Ray makes you Good.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

So we got physical violence for guys and psychic and/or physical violence for ladies.

― Leee (Leee), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:21 (twenty-one years ago)

for the rest of you, we have cole slaw. Feel fortunate.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that comics writers are prejudiced against supervillains.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with DV.
Here's the evidence.
1) Forces villians to all wear purple with green.
2) Always lets the Lantern Jawed Pretty Boy kick their asses.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Exception: Preacher. Tulip came off pretty well, although she admittedly die and got brought immediately back to life. Number of men (and animals) raped in this comic, though: through the roof.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

can we move this to a general misogyny in comics thread, cause i dont know nothing about these pervert suits, but i want to know what is thot of about the indie comics.

preacher offended me, with its sexual violence and religous hatred, i think this makes me a reactionary.

― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

ILX looks rather good in Verdana!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I find Verdana annoying.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Anthony, as much as I love Preacher, it is true that homosexuals generally don't end well in it.

And is it really religious hatred, just because it involves hunting down and killing God? Er.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

What happened to Hal Jordan in the 90s tops all of this list put together.
I'm totally pissed about it.
I think for the most part, the perceived misogyny in mainstream comics has a lot to do with the fact that there are barely any women creators. And comic-men (like rock/roll/rap-men) (hell, men in general) tend to have less than healthy overall relationships/contact with women.

I just picked up that World's Best Comics sampler of DC Archives and could not believe this 1940s Wonder Woman story. It was soooo bizarre. I think in a way it was trying to be feministy, but didn't really know how to go about it.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:12 (twenty-one years ago)

how so? did they bust out the strap-ons?

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:28 (twenty-one years ago)

ILX doesn't force any font on you, it's yr browsers default for non-headline text. change it there. I prefer it in Lucida Grande myself.

― Alan (Alan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Wonder Woman, Etta Candy and Steve Trevor travelled (as astral projections) to the planet Eros where the Queen sends her all female subjects to prison as a reward (they are free from responsibility and able to pursue all manner of scientific, philosophical and athletic interests).
Then they are attacked by men, who subject the women to a whole different kind of bondage. Wonder Woman frees them, and as reward, the Queen offers WW a lengthy sentence in the women-run prison. WW declines, as she has important work to get back as an Air Force Secretary to hunky Steve Trevor.

Also, in the Batman story (from the 40s as well), Bruce Wayne smokes a cigarette (or rather tries to light one). And Wayne and ward Dick Grayson live in an apartment together.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Is this evidence of Misogyny in Comics (Re: the Women in Refrigerators list)

Looking at that list, it's evidence of misogyny in superhero comics, which is hardly surprising. But comics as a whole, no.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Anthony, as much as I love Preacher, it is true that homosexuals generally don't end well in it.

it's more than that - Preacher laughs at homosexuals and sees them as inherently comical and worthy only of contempt.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Are my wife and I the only people on Earth who think that "Strangers In Paradise" is irrational horseshit?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)

re: homos in comics,

I just read the DC "Green Arrow by Jack Kirby" thing reprinting Kirby's brief run on GA from '58. In it, GA and his youthful ward Speedy sleep in the same room (their beds are separated by a nightstand, a la Bert & Ernie) and wear matching PJs. They also sometimes call each other by the other one's name, which may not actually have anything to do with latent I-am-you/you-are-me child-predator hocus pocus as it does with poor coloring.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I was interviewed on the radio about misogyny in comics back in the '80s. There was loads of it then and it's still there now, though it's true that there are various writers doing a decent job of demonstrating other directions. Yes, it is superhero comics being discussed here, and that's by no means all of comics.

A good example of how comics have used women in the nastiest (fictional) ways is one that is omitted from the opening list here: Black Canary was raped in, I think, a Mike Grell Green Arrow story. She's got more superpowers and experience than GA (forgive me if some megauniversechanging crossover has rendered that untrue now!), but this event was portrayed as reason for GA to revenge her, not as something for her to revenge herself, let alone as anything more sophisticated than that (there is an argument worth considering about whether revenge is inherently masculine, but that's another matter).

Another appalling example, not in the list, from a John Byrne issue of a Superman comic (don't recall which one). Some mind-control monster has kidnapped Big Barda, among DC's most powerful women, and one whose background shows her as more able to resist mind control and influence than most, and is using her in porn films. She shows no sign of being able to resist this. Then he controls Superman's mind, and tries to make films with the two of them (if you're cringing by now, bear in mind that the worst is yet to come). Superman breaks the control, and it's explained (tired old meme warning) that hypnosis cannot make you do anything you wouldn't normally be willing to do. I think you can deduce some ideas about Barda from this. Again, woman as helpless victim, and excuse for male outrage. This is a particularly horrible example of a woman being grossly distorted to fit a story in a way that men are not subject to.

And that's before any discussion about the general appearance of male and female characters are thought about. The dominant paradigm exaggerates male bodies to emphasise power and such physical qualities, and to minimise or eliminate the sexual (not only the lack of a bulge in the pants, but there have been thousands of portrayals of male superheroes lacking nipples!), whereas women are distorted to emphasise (secondary) sexual characteristics to a ridiculous degree.

It's an open and shut case.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Holy Crap! John Byrne is weee-eerd. I remember reading his novel when I was 12 or 13 and being deeply disturbed by a scene where the geeky neighbour kid has sex with the passed-out wife of protagonist.
He's not really Canadian y'know. But McFarlane (who's stuff seems just as bad) is.

The Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League seemed to make good use of women. I mean, they were still really hot, but they also got as much character development as the males.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Jim Lee is a pioneer because he has never been shy about highlighting the male package.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

It's an open and shut case.
I posted this to the other thread, but it bears repeating...
More anti-Byrne evidence for the Prosecution

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan, you are not alone re: Strangers in Paradise. I hadn't really known about it before, but my girlfriend showed it to me at the comic bookstore to illustrate its ridiculous soap-opera ways. Oh how we larfed.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

it's more than that - Preacher laughs at homosexuals and sees them as inherently comical and worthy only of contempt.

I'd like to think of a counterexample, but I just can't. At least it's kind to inbreeders.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Some Golden Oldies
and at the following page there are links for downloading Frederick Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent"

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I remembered something else, though it is clearly offtopic.
To anyone who has ever seen the sci-fi show Stargate SG1...ever noticed how every time the bespectacled science guy gets a girlfriend she ends up getting possessed by evil. That's happened, what, twice...three times now?

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

three years pass...

This interview (re: ridic Mary Jane merch) linked to by Douglas (here) is kind of hilarious.

― Jordan, Thursday, 7 June 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)

wow, statue Mary Jane is like 10000x hotter than Kirsten Dunst

― milo z, Thursday, 7 June 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

Oops, I just assumed this was on ILC.

― Jordan, Thursday, 7 June 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

twelve years pass...

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/06/18/npr-avengers-edit-but-make-it-without-women-men-hugging-levit

― zama roma ding dong (Eric H.), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:12 (six years ago)

An anonymous fan edited out shots, scenes and characters in a "defeminized" version circulating now on an illegal streaming site. As well as losing Larson's character, Captain Marvel, the defeminized edit is missing a scene where Hawkeye teaches his daughter to shoot. ("Young women should learn skills to become good wives and mothers and leave the fighting to men," the editor opined in an accompanying document.) The role of Black Panther is minimized. ("He's really not that important.") Spider-Man doesn't get rescued by women characters anymore. ("No need to.") And male characters no longer hug.

― zama roma ding dong (Eric H.), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:12 (six years ago)

Last sentence in the article OTM...so...

― nashwan, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:19 (six years ago)

Yeah, why the fuck do we need reportage on some pathetic cellar dweller working out his mommy issues via Final Cut.

― Morrie Antoilette (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:32 (six years ago)

Yeah, why the fuck do we need reportage on some pathetic cellar dweller working out his mommy issues via Final Cut.

― Morrie Antoilette (Old Lunch)

Because these pathetic cellar dwellers run the world, and very possibly always have.

― Flood-Resistant Mirror-Drilling Machine (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 15:01 (six years ago)

Imma need you to unpack that one, maybe. This is roughly the equivalent of NPR deciding to shine a spotlight on a random newsgroup post which, while perhaps endemic of a larger issue, should ever have been treated as newsworthy in isolation. But kudos on raising this chud's profile, intrepid footsoldiers of the fourth estate.

― Morrie Antoilette (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 15:22 (six years ago)

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