Michael Moore/Bill Hicks

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Tell me Tom, was Bill Hicks the Michael Moore of when you were in University?

If so I understand your feelings on him completely and utterly.

How many times can Moore be the subject of articles or mentioned on radio? It's driving me crazy, does anyone read his books who doesn't already agree with everything they say?

Is it just an Irish thing or are people finding this in Britain too? All the articles have this horrible tone about them too, as if Moore's work is some fantastic intellectual treasure trove waiting to be discovered by the daring.

I think the crucial difference between Hicks and Moore is that Hicks himself is a comedian and didn't necessarily attempt to be anything else. I think Moore is an entertainer at best.

Also does anyone find the race/gender chapters (and hence the title and its implications) of Stupid White Men to be incredibly patronising bordering on racist/sexist.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Moore is totally wack. End of. When I was at uni (four-ish years ago) it was Naomi Klein, who at least makes some pretense at serious analysis. But Hicks is just very different, Moore could never understand something like him.

Moore is an intriguing post-9/11 phenomenon, or maybe post-Clinton, in that Moore can only clash with an obvious spanner like Bush. A slippery crook like Clinton he'd have more trouble with, because he shares Clinton's eye for the main chance. It's enough to make one pro-war, he gives the left a bad name, and should be struck off Xmas lists forthwith!

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Totally agree, one of the really bad thing about Bush is how much he's dumbified his opponents.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Or the lucrative publishing opportunities he's opened up for his dumbest opponents...

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Difference between Michael Moore and Bill Hicks: Michael Moore's funny.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

i read 'Stupid White Men' and after an excellent first half i think Moore really loses the plot when giving his own political manifesto - sadly i can't remember the specifics. Bill Hicks didn't really care about politics enough i suspect but he sure liked to complain about it, fair enough - i thought he was very funny and there was often it seemed a tone of self-parody in his rants anyway.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i think Bush's opponents are more dumbstuck than anything else

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark Thomas > Michael Moore tho

Sam Kineson > Bill Hicks (altho Kineson's a bit too gross and stupid for me and i prefer Hicks' milder quality - hey it's just like curries)

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

The main thing that bugged me about BH was nothing to do with the man himself - students are inveterate quoters of 'good lines' anyway but with BH a new (to me) tone entered into it, people quoting it with a kind of implied parenthetical "and he's right too" attached, a sense that by quoting radical comedian Bill Hicks they had automatically 'won', the quote equivalent of saying "Two Words:" before something or "End of Story." afterwards. As shite as it was to hear people repeating Douglas Adams lines there was never that aspect to it.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Difference between Michael Moore and Bill Hicks: Michael Moore's funny

Haul this quote before the misuse of irony tribunal!! It could get misinterpreted as sincere. Or - my God, no... it can't be!

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

"Roger & Me" is about my hometown of Flint, MI, and accurate in very many respects. Michael Moore's parents live about 1km northeast of mine.

still, his tactics are sometimes annoying. Bowling for Columbine was funny, but had some parts that bothered the FUCK out of me, and i didn't think he established his point as well. The Onion described his last book as "ranting to the choir", which i can see. I stopped watching his "Awful Truth" show when he did a thing on Ted Turner owning a bunch of land in Montana. It's like, dude, who gives a fuck?

i always wondered how he could have benefitted from a university education--i think it would have sharpened his instincts, yet broadened his sources, and made him change his tactics so that he wouldn't come off like an asshole so much.

still: having Alan Keyes crowdsurf during the 2000 prez campaign = classic.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Michael Moore can be very funny. He's at his greatest asking questions, especially in asking questions that many folks might themselves want to ask someone but just won't, and in asking those particular questions to appropriate people. However, when it comes to answers, Michael Moore almost always seems to fall short, and often I wonder if he shares a fact-checking team with Ann Coulter.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I was completely bewildered by all the hype about Stupid White Men. I don't think I found more than a couple of lines in the whole book funny, and it definitely didn't give me any new political insight. And yeah, Ronan, I did find the race/gender chapters unbearable. SWM just gave me this overall impression of complete laziness. The arguments are lazy, the facts and statistics are extremely dubious, the jokes are lazy and formulaic. It's books like SWM that make me disillusioned with and irritated by the Left.
I do think Michael Moore can be funny though. I really liked Roger & Me and Bowling For Columbine. Nickalicious OTM about the asking questions. (What does OTM stand for btw? And does it just mean 'I agree with you'?)

― Cathy (Cathy), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 17:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Cathy - On The Money/Mark.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh I *see*. I'd been wondering about that for ages.

― Cathy (Cathy), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah I am amazed how all these papers are even giving time to someone who called his book Stupid White Men and wrote those chapters, it plays up to every dreadful movie stereotype of the evil white man knowledgable and rich but put to shame by the proud humble red indians simple love of life or some shit.

It's total crap, I was incensed when I actually bothered to read the book.

Tom, that's what I figured about your feelings on Hicks, and that's certainly the way Moore appears to be now. It's a little more "you should read Michael Moore, then you'd understand", ie the usual indie thing of assuming the only reason someone disagrees with you is because they have not heard the record/read the book/they're ignorant.

Bill Hicks is a thousand times funnier than Moore, even doing the goatboy sketch.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Moore is not entirely without merit and nor are his books. to be honest i'm sure it was biased to some extent but the whole description of Dubya's farcical march to the Whitehouse was a fascinating read and the statistics and accounts put forward seemed to confirm my worst fears about the whole fiasco.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:07 (twenty-one years ago)

he should've called the book BASTARD WHITE MEN as the men in question are not 'stupid' as such...

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Moore's all right, but for the love of fuck read Ben Hamper's Rivethead IMMEDIATELY. He's an ex-assembly line worker who wrote some columns for Moore back when Moore was the editor of the Flint/Michigan Voice and he's a fucking hoot.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Michael Moore's parents live about 1km northeast of mine.

kilometer? wtf, pinko commie bastard!

but yeah, Rivethead is great!

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:52 (twenty-one years ago)

It was painful in Bowling for Columbine to watch Moore conduct fantastic interviews and collect terrific information, and then on a dime, degenerate into a knee-jerk liberal. He interviews Charlton Heston and gets Heston to speculate that people horde guns and fear their neighbors because "this is a multiethnic society"; that should've been the end of it, it was an amazingly revealing quote. But Moore can't leave it alone, he has to chase Heston out of the room and leave a photo of a child gunshot victim in his driveway. Shut the fuck up and be a documentarian! How can I trust you when you want to make it all about how "right" I'm supposed to feel?

But I liked Roger and Me, because he was consistent with his take on the material.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Hicks > Moore = Mark E Smith > Billy Bragg

― Venga, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 23:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Moore would be absolutely insufferable (or moreso, depending on your viewpoint) if he had the "benefit" of a university education.

Moore is great for the casually/lightly/beginning politically interested - people who don't read political philosophy for kicks, people who have some vague idea that shit isn't right, etc.. Political science majors aren't his target audience.

In his vein of progressive populism, I like Jim Hightower (though he plays up the folksy wisdom angle and is too accepting of social conservatism for me).

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 01:32 (twenty-one years ago)

They're both people you grow out of.

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

moore ALWAYS tells you what you should think, hicks tells you what he thinks and urges you to make up your own minds about it - as i see it, that's the difference between fake politics (billy bragg) and real politics (mark e. smith).

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 02:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Having an explicit viewpoint and pushing it in your work (Moore, esp. Bragg), doesn't make for "fake politics."

And I think it's a laugh to say Hicks wasn't pushing his viewpoint just as much as Moore. It was a different kind of push, more reliant on sarcasm and getting ideas into people's heads subconsciously than Moore's demagogy, but it was still a push.
("If you're in marketing KILL YOURSELF NOW" - not much lee-way. "Turns out Saddam just wanted to see Bush's head rolling down the street. ME TOO!" - nope)

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

(and, truth be told, I can't stand Moore or his style, but I think it's BS to call his politics "fake.")

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 02:27 (twenty-one years ago)

He's at his greatest asking questions, especially in asking questions that many folks might themselves want to ask someone but just won't, and in asking those particular questions to appropriate people.

you could say that about Stuttering John from the Howard Stern show, too.

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Difference between Michael Moore and Bill Hicks: Michael Moore's funny.

Funny peculiar perhaps.

Difference between Michael Moore and Bill Hicks: Bill Hicks had jokes.

― retort pouch (retort pouch), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Moore makes me pro-gun, virtually, and I'm not a political science major, because it's patently absurd to go blaming the head of the NRA for murders if your main argument is that it isn't the legality of guns (which are also allowed in Canada) but US culture that 'leads' to events like Columbine.

Having an explicit viewpoint and pushing it in your work

Also: I don't see any program in Moore, I see a lot of grouses. His message isn't much more sophisticated than BEP's 'Where is the love?'

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 07:21 (twenty-one years ago)

"Dude, where's my country?" is terribly written, and poorly fact checked in places, (the worst crime for a factual author. On the Other hand Bowling for Columbine is a truly remarkable film. I don't buy Enrique's argument above, whether its cultural or not guns make is a whole lot easier to kill people and harder to stop if you are that way inclined.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 07:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Sam Kineson > Bill Hicks (altho Kineson's a bit too gross and stupid for me and i prefer Hicks' milder quality - hey it's just like curries)

I am relatively unfamiliar with Kineson's stuff, but this statement makes me think you are unfamiliar with Hicks' stuff. Did Kineson do a lot worse things than talk about prepubescent girls' assholes for three minutes?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 07:31 (twenty-one years ago)

"So cute and pink... like a bunny rabbit's nose."

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 07:32 (twenty-one years ago)

i think it's a case of Kineson being more generic in talking about that kind of thing but maybe not always as obscene/extreme, whereas Hicks would go into that only now and again but it could be pretty lurid.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 08:11 (twenty-one years ago)

in moore's case, it's difficult to believe in everything he says ronan coz the guty ios absolutely atrocious at bearing up his assertions with fact, has been found to be completely wrong about several things he's put into print and is generally a pretty base polemicist (c.f. his academy award acceptance speech for a textbook example of how NOT to further the liberal, anti-war, anti-bush agenda, in contrast to adrien brody's moving, considered and close to perfect variation on the same themes). that said, i do actually like him and think he has some bone-crusingly obvious, extremely valid and pertinent points, but would strongly advise anyone finding themselves concuring with everything moore says to read some hard news, check facts and not be sucked in by his, admittedly, pretty seductive barand of tubthumping. hicks, on the other hand, was absolutely hilarious - i saw him live a few years ago and he offended pretty much everyone in the audience (i remember a bunch of radical feminists making a very big deal of heckling him, getting absolutely shot down and walking out) made me kill myself laughing. check the rykodisc recordings of his performances released last year or maybe in 2001, they're well worth getting and you can go back to them time after time.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 08:43 (twenty-one years ago)

good to see my typing is up to its usual standard...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 08:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if Bill Hicks would be glad that he didn't live thru the preceding 9 years...

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

But the past nine years have been comedy GOLD!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Also does anyone find the race/gender chapters (and hence the title and its implications) of Stupid White Men to be incredibly patronising bordering on racist/sexist.
I read an excerpt where he (sarcastically, I hope?) suggests that all the worlds problems would be solved by making everyone an honorary Catholic.
WTF!?
That's already been tried twice, Mikey. The first time was called the Crusades. The second time was called the Inquisition. Neither one brought people together.
Mikey...I loved you back in your "Roger and Me" and "Pets and Meat" days, but that "make everybody Catholic" bit wasn't even funny at all, Mikey.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I read an excerpt where he (sarcastically, I hope?) suggests that all the worlds problems would be solved by making everyone an honorary Catholic.
WTF!?

this was where he lost the plot. i assumed he was joking, but i had to wonder...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

That was part of (TV Nation or Idiot Nation, I can't remember), on how to solve the Northern Ireland crisis: Catholic doctrine states that someone can be baptised simply by immersion in Holy Water, so he just went getting Protestants to be soaked in HW.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)

He really said that? Pillock.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

some of you may care to know that he was on his way to seminary at one point, but didn't go thru with it.

can't remember where i heard that, tho. Maybe his appearance on the Orielly show?

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

As bothered as I have been at times by Hicks, he looks a ton better when put next to Moore (fnar fnar, the only time Moore doesn't outweigh someone). Moore's passive-aggressive bullying and condescending populism (he plainly hates anyone who isn't himself) are pretty nauseating, whereas Hicks was never anything but totally upfront about his immense anger and sadness. While his act could be pretty tiring, I think it still made it a lot easier to identify with this very nervy and troubled (and very wickedly funny) man. Also Hicks was an unusually gifted stand-up, something that's become more apparent to me over the years esp. when I compare him to his less-able followers like David Cross - and whenever Moore tries to do his weird quasi-comic spoken word schtick, his jokes are invariably awful as hell

― Adrian (Adrian Langston), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Al Franken's book had some problems, too. Primarily the "everything was wonderful under Clinton" and "Gore would have saved the world" angle. Still a damn sight better than Moore's last couple of books, though.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 23 October 2003 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

see if you can track down the issue of might magazine where they tried to get an interview with michael moore in the same manner he does with CEOs. it's entertaining.

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Thursday, 23 October 2003 03:41 (twenty-one years ago)

If anyone finds the interview mentioned above, please post a link. And please do the same thing to Mark fucking Thomas.

― iAN sPACK, Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, "Adrian", but Moore's "condescending populism" isn't "plain" to me. As for Hicks, well, I enjoy his CDs, but he could be quite the misanthrope, like when he blames battered wives or makes fun of "trailer trash".

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:07 (twenty-one years ago)

...like when he blames battered wives...
I've never heard him *blame* a battered wife, but I've heard him rail on aboute the battered wife that sticks up for her abusive boyfriend (by lying about the abuse) while the cops are dragging him away.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

This is the most OTM statement in this whole thread. Like him or not, Moore is the closest thing there is to a mainstream populist liberal spokesman.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Saturday, 25 October 2003 01:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Who or what are you mocking w/the endless quotation marks (LOOK THEY ARE FOR EMPHASIZING SEE@!!) ? I don't get it, my name's Adrian. :-/

― Adrian (Adrian Langston), Saturday, 25 October 2003 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Michael Moore is funny on the telly, but Stupid White Men is shit. There was a little paragraph in it which made the presumption that ALL white folks are racist (I think he was going on about why Colin Powell won't be president) that made me EXTREMELY angry. And yes, he does seem to go on about stuff, more than saying stuff, ya know? I want a mirror of this bad world, not a description of someones view of the mirror.

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Saturday, 25 October 2003 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Downsize This! >>>>>> Stupid White Men. He was more concerned with being funny in that one, and he closed the book with a great diatribe on elitism -- about how some on the left look down upon or ignore actual working-class people and their "low culture", and the need for them to actually understand it:

"You must watch 'Friends', 'Baywatch', 'Melrose Place', 'Walker: Texas Ranger', and other mass forms of popular entertainment so you know what the people are tuned into so you can tune into them. No Sweet Honey and the Rock concerts for at least six months."

His satirical bits are a lot funnier, too. One chapter has him theorizing that since the formation of the state of Israel has created so much conflict and death over the past 50 years, and since Germany's restitution to Holocaust victims was so minimal, Germany should have awarded Jews with Bavaria instead. (He also made a really tasteless joke about German tourists being murdered in Florida and how it wasn't gang activity but angry Jews out for payback. I haven't read that book in a while, actually. I should probably get back to it.)

As far as the "Moore = left-wing Coulter" theory I've seen going around: no. You'd have to shoot Jello Biafra full of meth and cocaine and hit him in the head with a hammer a couple times to get a left-wing Coulter. Or you could just drag out Ted Rall.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Saturday, 25 October 2003 12:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Michael Moore for fucking PRESIDENT!!!

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 26 October 2003 05:15 (twenty-one years ago)

you want MM to fuck the president?

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 26 October 2003 05:59 (twenty-one years ago)

well, they'd totally have to go to dinner & a movie first, just to make it proper & legit.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Sunday, 26 October 2003 08:30 (twenty-one years ago)

and then that creepy, fat fuck could bend George W over the loveseat and pound him till he bleeds!

(This is mental image #354 in the Things You Never Want to Think About series. Collect all 1001!)

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Sunday, 26 October 2003 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

This is patronizing bullshit.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 27 October 2003 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, come on - aren't you being a little sensitive? That folk-rock hippie ghetto is annoying if you're not a part of it. Elsewhere, I've been lurking in an argument between lefties on whether sports are "reactionary" or not. MM should tell the hippies to all watch Monday Night Football.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 27 October 2003 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

fuck that. They need a good dose of Hockey Night in Canada, and they much pay attention to Coach's Corner, too.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Monday, 27 October 2003 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

...for example, I was watching the D.C. anti-war protest on tv on Saturday, and some hippie got up and denounced "Joe Millionaire", "American Idol", "The Amazing Race" and "Survivor". Way to gain sympathy with the public. As if you can't be a thoughtful person and enjoy trash. My sister is a pagan Vegan Unitarian and her favorite shows are Paradise Hotel and Temptation Island.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 27 October 2003 15:43 (twenty-one years ago)

...on the bright side, a rapper ended his bit by saying, "oh, yeah, one more thing - fuck George Bush!" Then the crowd started chanting "Fuck George Bush" - on C-SPAN!

― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 27 October 2003 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

But all those shows consecrate what MM claims to hate most in American culture.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 27 October 2003 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

hee hee. the Frankfurt School is alive & well in mass protests.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Monday, 27 October 2003 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

if those shows actually do consecrate what MM claims to hate most in American culture, then it's his JOB to watch them in think about persuading those who like them why his vision is actually better for everyone

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 27 October 2003 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Fair play, but I don't see him boosting anything he might think of as liberating. I was probably trying to say without saying it that I don't think MM has anything as coherent as a vision that he's trying to bring people round to (except 'don't vote Bush, don't shoot people, don't sack people').

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 27 October 2003 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

still: having Alan Keyes crowdsurf during the 2000 prez campaign = classic.

I was in that moshpit, egging Keyes on! It was his daughter who convinced him to come out and do it. We had been yelling & screaming for hours to try and get ANY of the candidates to jump in and it was so f'in cold (riding around on a flatbed in Des Moines in, what was it, February? anyhow=COLD) and everybody was hoarse and the feeling of jubliation when Keyes jumped in was indescribable. Also, when he defended his action ("the people were holding me up!") in the debate a couple of days later was awesome.

this is not v. ontopic but I wanted to share

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 27 October 2003 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry, I don't think they censor anything on C-SPAN! I saw a precorded Robin Williams DNC benefit on it once, and they were airing all his swearing.

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 27 October 2003 18:56 (twenty-one years ago)

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