Who Killed the West Wing?

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Delayed UK viewers think yourselves lucky for once: at least you've got the fourth series on Channel 4. The fifth, non-Sorkin series, which is playing in the US at the moment, is just fucking awful.

After last night's North Korean defector episode, I've decided to stop watching the series in case I have to cry. Anyone else?

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I felt that way after the fourth episode of the first season.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe John Wells just needs to get himself a big bag of coke and it'll turn around. I don't know if it's awful but it's definitely lost the spark that made it good before. Sorkin never would've resorted to teleprompter gags, for instance. So long as Mary-Louise Parker is still on the show I'll be watching!

― Bryan (Bryan), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

grassy knoll

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Hstencil

― Nicolars (Nicole), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

nicolars otm

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

also: it was bono, acting in conjunction with the martians

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

sorkin should make an autobiopic out of that

― jones (actual), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

glad to see I'm not the only ilxor with a serious jones for mary louise-parker

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

yes stop waving me at her please

― jones (actual), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

As dreadful as the show's been so far, and Chuck Tatum painfully otm, season 4 was already getting boring. Not as obviously crass as this season has been -- at least it was not condescending.

More thoughts here: How great was the first season of West Wing?

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Its dead dead dead. I think the first episode of the kidnapping was its last gasp.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Which was right around the time that Sorkin confirmed he wasn't returning this season, wasn't it?

― Bryan (Bryan), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Pretty much IIRC. I do have to say that that episode reminded me of how good "Angel" is on a soundtrack (even though said soundtrack would never have included such a hip song in the show's prime).

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

who did sorkin play? that hot ass't DA?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Every single thing that made the show good has gone. I don't think I've seen a single piece of acting in the new season. It's all just reading dialogue. What's happened to CJ's character, the Donna/Josh interplay? It's sabotage, I tell ye! Surely the actors must realise what crap they're speaking.

:-(

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Brad Whitford/Josh knows. Instead of you know, acting and stuff, he's just falling back on the mannerisms he's built up over the years.

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This season has been awful, but I'm sure I'll soldier on, just like through the darkest days of Buffy.

The writing is dead, every episode is going to be a new The World's Gonna End Soon Crisis, the boss from Office Space is the new VP (that's only salvaged if he does the O-face), they're setting up a cliched inter-office romantic triangle.

Terribly depressing to watch these in contrast to the Bravo reruns.

Cast another ballot for Mary-Louise Parker here. Is it just me, or did they give CJ and Donna a 'more glamorous' makeover?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i know it's inferior, but i'm still enjoying it, just a lot less. my standards are horrible.

― badgerminor (badgerminor), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

So, is the shit going to hit the fan when Josh finds out the intern pulled strings on the VP vote? "You don't use your family's money to... blah blah blah"?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you actually care?

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

If I start thinking about the West Wing as a prime-time soap opera, possibly.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, that's how I watch ER

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

The awful thing is, I bet the ratings go back up now.

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Brad Whitford, the guy from Aerosmith?

― calstars (calstars), Thursday, 23 October 2003 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

It got worse.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 30 October 2003 07:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Glad I missed it.

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 30 October 2003 07:43 (twenty-two years ago)

What happened then?

http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_10.30.03/op/oped.html

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's make up for weaker writing with more internal soap operas.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I feel vindicated in the sense that I never actually thought this show was amazing in the first place, so now everyone's starting to get a taste of how I felt midway through season 1 when the shiny candy coating wore off.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

You're just upset President Bartlett hasn't been attacked by a cougar.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

This is also true.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Looks like Mary-Louise Parker's off the show possibly. REALLY no reason to watch now. Why is Gary Cole not being crazy?

― Bryan (Bryan), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Bartlet gets amnesia and is drilled in the back by Tony's missing goatee.

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 30 October 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

ugh. i recant what i said last week. This week SUCKED.

everyone is going rogue. everyone is tumultuous relationship. blah blah blah.

― badgerminor (badgerminor), Thursday, 30 October 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

And now this is the point in the thread where we wax sentimental about Sports Night.

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 30 October 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

five months pass...

The show still sucks.
CJ's anti-FCC protest is the least realistic thing this show has EVER done.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 22 April 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope Sorkin is writing a movie script somewhere.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 22 April 2004 01:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I am just posting on this thread to remind you all that The Shield is the very pinnacle of human achievement. It's not too late for some of you.

That is all.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 22 April 2004 03:12 (twenty-one years ago)

If we're doing off-topic plugging, I'd like to remind everyone that my blog blah blah blah...

― SLeeeter Kinney (Leee), Thursday, 22 April 2004 03:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey that wasn't off topic! I was showing some lost sheep the way...

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 22 April 2004 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

The Shielf suXor. The FX love should go to Nip/Tuck.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 22 April 2004 05:23 (twenty-one years ago)

You are wrong. You are very, very wrong.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 22 April 2004 11:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Very very very wrong.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 22 April 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, at least over here in RTE-land we've got the new series of The Sopranos under way to take our minds off how bad the current season of the West Wing is. Okay, so RTE hasn't figured out how to make the programmes actually start on time, or how to work the widescreen thingy, but it's something.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Thursday, 22 April 2004 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

niptuck is nasty

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 April 2004 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

It's the sleaziest show on TV, how can you not love it.

What's missing from the West Wing, is Sorkin's idealism. Maybe this is more realistic (and soap opera-y) with everyone clawing at each other and the staff constantly bickering - but the West Wing shouldn't be realistic. A Catholic New England liberal PhD Nobel laureate President?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 22 April 2004 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I feel like the politics have been very, very simplified since Sorkin left. Nobody has any arguments I haven't already heard/thought of.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I would watch the Shield if it was just an hour of Michael Chiklis getting punched in the stomach.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

even if, or only if?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 28 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

this show is poison. i was pretty damn addicted for a while there, tho.

― g--ff (gcannon), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:13 (twenty-one years ago)

$ork1n l1ke$ teh $hroomz

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 23:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I avoided reading this thread until series 5 got to the UK. And now it has and it makes me want to set fire to stuff. (We just had the Korean defector episode.) Depressing. I know everyone in the US knows this already. And yes, I also find MLP attractive.

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:07 (twenty-one years ago)

They gave up on the First Lady Luvs Pills Pills Pills storyline mighty quick, didn't they.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 12 August 2004 10:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe if you stick around for Season 9 it'll get better? Term limits and all?

― Guymauve (Guymauve), Thursday, 12 August 2004 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

You won't have to wait for S9, they're pushing election material up.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a newish book out where a bunch of writers talk about their favorite TV shows, Nick Hornby leads off with a (shockah!) good piece on the West Wing. It's great because it's unrealistic and even cheesy on occasion. A realistic political series, with slimy hacks and amoral pols would be awful. At its best - the ep when Tobey's business card was in the dead vet's coat pocket, or "Let Bartlet Be Bartlet" it's great to see a vision of politics and government that isn't horribly depressing.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:26 (twenty-one years ago)

i kind of agree with dan upthread. i don't know what frustrated me about the show: obviously the early stuff, with the fast dialogue was very clever. but too clever? they never stop to think, politics is a kind of bam-bam-bam thing for experts only. it's nature of the show that it's populated by wonks, but there isn't enough there to undermine them. even if they disagree on [comparatively minor] points of politics, it's basically a wonkadoxy.

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:38 (twenty-one years ago)

not to get all don wiener but they never gave any of their conservative nemeses any credit. stacked deck, wunnit?

― g--ff (gcannon), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

it's hard to say as a UK viewer. here dcw comes across as -- seriously not exaggerating -- a fascist. the blonde chick was therefore a 'balancing voice' as far as i was concerned, but it's not as if bartlett was 'left wing'. from my workstation the political spectrum ran the gamut of right-liberal to left-republican.

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

well i guess i don't mean ideologically so much as narratively. i'm thinking of one of the b-plots involving a general who is threatening to be a stick in the mud re: gays in the military. and LO AND BEHOLD, c.j. is able to dig up that one of his early combat medals was a fraud! how convenient.

― g--ff (gcannon), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

gee, if only all our military brass had records full of lies, then we'd have real progress...

― g--ff (gcannon), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

that's true. it difficult dramatically to have that kind of tension, since in the IRL white house you'd imagine they'd employ mostly people who agreed with the top dog... i never quite understood what blonde republican was doing there anyway (some bullshit justification came from the prez himself).

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

well i would suppose she was there to fix the problem i'm complaining about! but having her say 'oh they're such good people' and work for bartlett is, well, the problem itself again.

― g--ff (gcannon), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

why sorkin didn't have her and sam having crazy hate sex in that basement office i'll never understand.

― g--ff (gcannon), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

The most interesting ideological/narrative bits were the group's internal struggles - going into faux-Rwanda or not, balancing liberalism with pragmatism/centrism. I do wish the election storylines hadn't converged on a "Gee, he's dumb" Florida hairdo (but the two debate episodes were first-class).

The show never gives people well to its left a fair shake, either - anti-globalization protesters are inevitably disorganized/stupid hippies, the third party Senator and his aides were pretty self-righteous.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 12 August 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't diss our token Republican Sex Kitten.

― Mr. Tony Plow (Leee), Thursday, 12 August 2004 19:04 (twenty-one years ago)

she's got nothing on A. Janney

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 12 August 2004 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

and here i thought i was stone alone in my janney love.

― g--ff (gcannon), Thursday, 12 August 2004 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

two months pass...

New season not off to a promising start. The ERification is complete.

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Monday, 25 October 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

eleven months pass...

Season 7 in 10 minutes. Surely someone besides me still watches Josh & Co.?

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Sunday, 25 September 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

am going through season 3 right now, on dvd. have sinking feeling at thought of impending season 4...

― stet (stet), Sunday, 25 September 2005 23:54 (twenty years ago)

Thanks to this thing called the internet, my brain is full of West Wing spoilers, some of them doubtless accurate.

― M. V. (M.V.), Monday, 26 September 2005 00:42 (twenty years ago)

The instant someone gets an episode online that I can grab, I'll be right with you, Milo. I thought last series was great. If a little grass roots and dewy-eyed, but a lot of the snap seemed to be back in the writing.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 26 September 2005 05:56 (twenty years ago)

two weeks pass...

Bravo's in the middle of Day 3 of 4 where they're broadcasting the entire 6th season. I gave up midway through Season 5 (after they saved the budget, but before they killed off McNally), and missed the part of S6 where Leo has his heart attack in the enchanted forest, but god damn it's good stuff! Focusing on Santos & Vinick definitely breathed new life into the folks behind the scenes (Smits & Alda are awesome), everyone's gotten situated nicely in their new roles after the S5 cockfest, Kate Harper's actually a character and not a block-chested hairbun, the temp press secretary's like a little Ainsley Hayes (awesome), Josh is awesome, the new independant Donna Moss is awesome, Bingo Bob (HARVEY BIRDMAN!) is awesome as a semi-despicable toad, and TOBY CRYING! AND STEPHEN ROOT! Goddamn it, I'm smitten again.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 13 October 2005 03:57 (twenty years ago)

Discussing West Wing on this thread is like communicating with Alpha Centauri at light speed.

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 13 October 2005 04:59 (twenty years ago)

Oh whatever. BUMP IT!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

There's new ones on Sunday nights, you know. (The Oct. 9 episode was pretty slapdash, I thought. Worst of the new season.)

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:10 (twenty years ago)

That was the I LIED episode, right? W/ the Kerry "quote"?

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:15 (twenty years ago)

Yeah.

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:16 (twenty years ago)

That was a bad episode. I am still enjoying, just progressively less so each season.

― jeffrey (johnson), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

I roffled mightily at the Kerry bit, tho I saw it coming a mile away. It might've been meh-hy, but I really like the Vinick / Ms. Tim Allen / Bruno dynamic. And, honestly, after the last few "new" shitass episodes I saw of the show, it was godhead in comparison.

BTW, was it Fitz that was killed, or McNally? I missed the denouement of the JOSH BE SPYING WHILE DONNA BLOWED UP storyline, as well as Charley's promotion & the intro of the new Pocket Press Secretary. And the Preznit's collapse. And, like I said before, McGarry's Oh-Face.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

It was Fitz.

― jeffrey (johnson), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:26 (twenty years ago)

Also, re: S6 - what the hell is w/ the Wingers using Hoynes to get their Gary Hart jones satiated? Dude's gotta zip it up! I was seriously hoping that Santos would vault into contention via moxie and perseverance, but given he was up against the current Bartlett veep and former Bartlett veep, I guess they had to stick Hoynes in a college-aged honeypot to keep Santos around.

LONG LIVE JOHN AMOS

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

They even telegraphed Fitz going down w/ a "well, I'm happy it's almost over" scene right before he went abroad, didn't they? SEASON FIVE BLEW (except for the episode w/ Glenn Close & William Fitchner).

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, i think 5 was the very worst season when they tried to move over to some really bad High Drama to make up fr sorkinless. I much prefer 6 as the format is kinda unusual, fr me at least, in that it's completely unsustainable. One faction wins, the other loses and then everyone else is out the show. I'm not so sure if it was scripted better than 5 but campaigning episodes are certainly much more appealing.

― jeffrey (johnson), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

this season has been pretty weak. They're trying to do a super-fast paced 'this is what elections are like' drama, but the writing has been shit and the characters are boring.

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Thursday, 13 October 2005 19:13 (twenty years ago)

three months pass...

NBC kills the West Wing

― kyle (akmonday), Sunday, 22 January 2006 21:35 (twenty years ago)

About damn time.

― Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Sunday, 22 January 2006 21:38 (twenty years ago)

"NBC is stable and our vital signs are encouraging," Reilly said. "Most predictions were that we were going to go from bad to worse this year, and that hasn't happened."

Now that is some great spin from the head of your entertainment division, NBC.

― truck-patch pixel farmer (my crop froze in the field) (Rock Hardy), Sunday, 22 January 2006 21:47 (twenty years ago)

eight years pass...

http://www.cbs.com/shows/madam-secretary/

tea leoni IS…

secretary of state

― j., Thursday, 15 May 2014 01:03 (eleven years ago)

Hollywood hungers for the opportunity to bring hard-hitting social and political commentary into the living rooms of America... embedded in a delightful matrix of pure entertainment!

― epoxy fule (Aimless), Thursday, 15 May 2014 01:11 (eleven years ago)

i wonder if zeljko ivanek gets extra for doing pilots

― j., Thursday, 15 May 2014 01:57 (eleven years ago)

one year passes...

amused...

Later, because it was inevitable, (Bradley) Whitford was asked which candidate fictional President Jed Bartlet would have supported. Whitford said there was no question that President Jed would Be With Her. Well, of course. President Jed ordered the killing of the official of a friendly government, handed down a federal death sentence, sent Toby Ziegler out to "reform" Social Security, which did not then, nor does it now, need that kind of "reforming," and regularly dealt with the fantastical moderate Republicans that were cooked up in the labs of Sorkin Engineering, LLC.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a43643/democratic-candidates-celebrity-surrogates/

― we can be heroes just for about 3.6 seconds (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 19:39 (nine years ago)

one year passes...

Sorkin single-handedly broke the brains of an entire generation of liberals is something i used to say ironically but now actually believe.
— Adam H. Johnson (@adamjohnsonNYC) June 25, 2017

― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Monday, 26 June 2017 16:14 (eight years ago)

two years pass...

pic.twitter.com/KFZECDbTNz
— Richard M. Nixon (@dick_nixon) February 28, 2020

― brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Friday, 28 February 2020 20:48 (six years ago)

One of the Dollop guys has a West Wing podcast, out of context the terribleness of the score is jarring. Every scene ends on awful, soaring strings.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, 28 February 2020 22:30 (six years ago)

six months pass...

Hell on earth. https://t.co/27AsUY7zYs
— Doug Henwood (@DougHenwood) September 25, 2020

― brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Friday, 25 September 2020 15:55 (five years ago)

three months pass...

My wife and I just started watching this, neither of us had before. About a quarter of the way into season 1, pretty good, I like Bradley Whitford a lot. I totally forgot how bad the incidental music/score was for '90s TV dramas.

― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 14:47 (five years ago)

I started it for the first time towards the beginning of the pandemic, got through about three seasons. It made for a nice alternative from the reality we're living through.

The 'liberals are unable to distinguish real life from this fantasy television program!' criticisms of TWW are essentially the same garbage arguments that pop up every time popular entertainment is blamed for acts of violence.

― Suffering from a Surfeit of Savoir Faire (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 14:58 (five years ago)

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