Spookology II: Vampire Soul

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Another Halloween thread from the Institute of Spookological Research...

The idea came to me last night while watching Buffy - it was the episode during which she discovered that Spike had "recovered his soul". !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is something which seems to have been happening (metaphorically or otherwise) more and more in Vampire mythology in recent times - from the remorseful and conscience-bound Louis in "Interview With The Vampire" to the moral Vampire Cop of Forever Knight, and now our "vampires with souls" - Angel and Spike in Buffy.

How far has our mythological vampire come from the blood sucking demons of Greek mythology, and the zombie revenants of Eastern Europe! Was this the logical progression from the charismatic Dracula of Bram Stoker, as played so convincingly by Lugosi and Lee? Or is this a more cultural phenomenon, that in our post-modern, relative society, even the living personification of evil has the capability to *not* be evil?

Let the bloodsucking feast begin...

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:23 (twenty-two years ago)

When was Interview With The Vampire written, BTW? Because I'm trying to think of examples of "the remorseful vampire" from before this, and I can't. I really DON'T want to have to give Anne Rice credit for this particularly groundbreaking reinvention.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:47 (twenty-two years ago)

IwtV published 1976

and i think you have to credit her with it: she's a terrible writer but i think a quite a good theologian (in ref vampirology)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, she had an incredible idea which completely reinvented/revitalised the vampire genre, but then continued to write exactly the same story over and over and over again for the next 25 years.

What was the theology behind it, I'm wondering?

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

in dracula though, the point is that dracula is only beaten by those who've taken a sorta homeopathic dose of vampirism (= jonathan and mina, and i think van helsing also)

(i don't really rate coppola's bram stoker's dracula BUT i think anthony hopkins is terrific in it as van helsing, very funny, though admittedly he doesn't have much competition)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i think she just thought quite hard about the emotional materialism of living for ever, and about the fact that "we" (non-vampires) had become much more like vampires spiritually (rapacious capitalism blah blah), so what wd happen if that was reversed (ie what story cd you make out of it?)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Argh, X-Post...

Well, there's tons and tons of stuff like that - weird Victorian SCIENCE and MEDICINE WILL SAVE US!!! stuff - in the book of Dracula. The book is far too complex to possibly bring all of the issues it gets into to the screen without the film being nine hours long. (I think Coppola's Dracula *was* nine hours long, but really...) So different cinematic versions focus on different aspects, according to the time in which they were made. The 30s Xenophobia producing Lugosi, while the 70s produced the Frank Langella "David Hasselhoff Sex Vampire" etc. etc.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, Anne Rice had one great idea by taking the Vampire story and telling it from the Vampire POV, which made it more alluring for generations of goths who wanted to wear capes and drink wine and be all spooky.

I think her theology is correct for the most part -- she does recognize that vampires can't have sex, because the act of sucking blood for pleasure or sucking blood to propegate the species is an obvious metaphor for sex, including the phallic canine puncturing flesh and making it bleed -- but some of Lestat's other misadventures are not accurate and just stupid, making for really boring reading. The Body Theif, for example. Ridiculous nonsense.

Unfortunately, since Rice's books, *all* vampire literature has become about what fun it is to be a vampire rather than ooo, aren't they veddy sceddy, boys and ghouls. which makes for rather uninteresting reading. vampire literature has turned into an endless series of annoying teenagers fucking and raving. Borrrrring.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, apart from Jemiah Jefferson who puts the EEEEEEEEEEVIL back into Vampires. Yeah, there's lots of fucking and raving, too, but the ultimate ending of her vampires is that the horror of human pathological psychology ends up being far more horrible than the horror of vampirehood. Or something like that...

Don't go to meetings, Catty! Stay and talk about vampires with us!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:05 (twenty-two years ago)

About Dracula, though, at the end there is a look of relief on his face when they finally stake him. (or whatever it is they do, it's been a long time since I've *read* the ending) The idea is that his soul can finally be released and move on to the next level. I have a theory (no, it's not bunnies) that in this whole vampire-soul thing, that the 'demon' surpresses the soul, and the soul is trapped in the body but does not control the body. So the idea on Buffy that people get their souls back and what have you becomes a bit rubbish. I like where some of those storylines went in the Buffyverse but I have never held BTVS up as an accurate retelling or interpretation of vampire mythology/theology. Although in the last season, when Spike stakes his mother, she too gives a look of relief as she dusts, referring back to Dracula and the idea that your conciousness cannot ascend if you are still tied to the earth, no matter how it is that you are tied.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

one of the (many many many) things i liked in the movie Queen of the Damned was the potential complexity of the relationship between pre-pact vampires (akesha), pact vampires (inc "classical" vampires like dracula etc), post-pact vampires like lestat, humans who wish they were vampires (= goths) and everyone else (actually this last one doesn't get much of a look in)

bcz rice basically thinks goths = saints, there's almost no tension in her actual books - the film was much more ambivalent (ie it decided to present lestat as an insufferably pretentious cunt), which made it very funny

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd rather stay and talk vampires! I love this stuff. (obviously)

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

NO BUFFY SERIES SEVEN SPOILERS CATTY!! i have only seen two eps

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree on the QotD. The scene were Jess goes into the vampire bar and they chase her out is a clear demonstration of how stupid wannabe-vampires are and how they do not realise what they're messing with, which has many realistic applications. Like the dumbasses who killed friends/neighbors to drink their blood. It doesn't work like that. You have to be chosen, you cannot choose. It's about relinquishing control. There's a lot of s&m in vampirism.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Sigh, obviously, Catty, since you'd rather watch Buffy on cable then THE HORNY HISTORIAN.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

whoooooooooooops! Sorry. I won't discuss Buffy anymore because Buffy is generally wrong and it'll derail the thread. besides, watching the show, it becomes clear that the whole demon/soul dichomtomy becomes too restrictive after awhile and they break their own rules.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd rather watch Buffy than watch another docudrama about Britain and WWII. Nothing against the Horny Historian.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Vampires are strangely sexual, maybe that's why I like them so much.

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, spoilers aside (bad Cat!) I think that Buffy is important to discuss, because it very much seems to follow the Anne Rice post-classical view of vampirism in many ways (the good vampires) yet also features many classical revenant or else totally evil vampires (which must be staked as quickly as possible) as well.

Did anyone else, ever watch Forever Knight except me? I know there were others, because there was a massive internet write-in campaign to save it (though when they brought it back, it was k-rub and they ruined it) none of its fans seem to hang out here...

And why was Post-Anne Rice vampirism successful when combined with the teenage angst TV genre, rather than the crime-fighting cop genre?

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

You'll note the presentation of vampires has changed, as well. THe Bride of Dracula, for example: Vampires used to dress in their opera coats and tux w/ tails (appropriate theatre garb as a reult of the staging of vampires in plays -- big coats made it easier for them to *disappear*) and the female vampires are always in white. (Lucy in Dracula, etc) The idea of marriage and wedding is very strong in old school vampire myth. Today everyone just dresses in fetish gear, indicating a great deal of subculture overlap that is still rooted in strong sexual partnering (Bride of Dracula, Mistress of Dracula)

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Hrmmm. I thought old school vampires dressed that way because they dressed in whatever they were *burried* in - i.e. formal tux gear or formal gowns. (In some cases, the wedding gowns were intentional - i.e. Dracula, to heighten the "bride of darkness" idea.) The fetish gear rather than marriage gear still represents the sexual nature of the vampire - but rather, post-sexual revolution, that sexuality is not just outside the constraints of Victorian Sexuality (i.e. marriage and the family) but outside "normal" sexuality as well.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually Forever Knight lives on with Angel -- it's the exact same format when the Angel spinoff was launched: vampire PI. "I'm the Dark Avenger!"

I think Buffy is successful because not only is the boogie-boogie element a metaphor for the horrors teens face in high school and life in general (teenagehood is hell) but it also mixes a lot of fun characters and witty dialogue. A lot of adults like Buffy, it was always just-that-close to being Too Old for teenagers.

I didn't watch Forever Knight because it was always on when I was in class, so I failed it. :(

My all-time favorite vampire-on-tv show is Ultraviolet. Dracula and the science element reflected the spirt of its age, and I think Ultraviolet and its science do the exact same thing for ours. It provides a timeless, relevant quality to the vampire myth without retreading old ground (and black eyeliner). It *also* removes the morality from the equation, and turns it instead to a question of what is the natural law.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

In a lot of hammer horror films, the vampires are dressed as brides and grooms, which harker (ha ha) back to Bram Stoker, again. Lucy was buried in her wedding dress; Drac had his trio of Brides. But for the time and place, I doubt most of the innocents slaughtered by vampires and buried in their graves would have such finery, only our vampires of fine lineage are buried in snazzy gear. but these are 20th century constructs and stereotypes and they seem to be passing. Buffy's vampires (her again!) are a mix: either they're metrosexual like Angel, or trapped in a time warp, like some of the dumber vampires buffy stakes because she sees their outdated clothes or dance moves.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:32 (twenty-two years ago)

x-post... d'oh!

Hrmm, I think that hits the nail on the head (or the vampire in the heart, as the case may be) as to why I *don't* particularly like the Buffy/Angel universe. Because of its retro-looking approach, that everything is demons or vampires, and therefore basically superstition. Even their "research" comes out of dusty looking tomes, and The Past.

I like vampire things that actually get into the "science" of it all, that stress the technological aspect, rather than the mythological/superstitious. I mean, really, Ultraviolet was CSI with Vampires!

Which is the highest compliment!

Also, it's funny how you claim WWII-burnout, yet Ultraviolet had *such* endless Nazi comparisons, what with Vampires as the Ubermensch and all that. The racewar aspect, I find far more interesting - the whole "what is natural law?" question, and the idea of a redundant, "inferior" animal (humans) being farmed or hunted to extinction by an evolutionarily "superior" animal, and the rights of both species.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Er... Jack Davenport is cuter than Winston Churchill??

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:39 (twenty-two years ago)

But neither are as cute as Nigel Spivey!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Er, no, sorry, I think Jack Davenport is cuter than Nigel Spivey. But that's good! 'cause it means we're not competing for the attentions of the Horny Historian!

And Jack Davenport in ultraviolet dresses just like Angel. To kind of um you know not compeltely derail this thread....

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Nigel Spivey is, however, not a vampire.

The hottest vampire in contemporary television was definitely whassisface that played Nick in Forever Knight. Gareth Wynn Davies? (Except he's Welsh so I'm probably not putting enough consonants in his names...)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm going to go with Angel on this one, just because he's all broody and reminds me a bit of John Taylor (although not in any obvious ways). He's seconded by Spike.

Although the guy who played Dracula in the Buffy v. Dracula episode that also went on to play Vlad the Impaler in some made-for-tv movie with Jane March is also scrumptious.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Rudolf Martin!

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the OTHER of my big failures of ability to get into Buffy was that I just never, ever found Angel attractive in any way shape or form. Sigh. Vampires are supposed to be SEXY!!! That is the whole appeal of them. Anti-Victorian Prudery RAW ANIMAL SEX ON A STICK, or on a STAKE as the case may be.

(If we don't stop this tack soon, we are going to get into The Lost Boys and we DON'T want to do that now, do we?)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

yes we do! we need to discuss the lost boys. but after my meeting. lost boys discussion at 2pm!

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Sigh. It's going to be a long day.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 11:04 (twenty-two years ago)

buffy is abt demons really (w.vampires as a subset)

and also (therefore) abt the consequences of power (in the potentia sense, rather than the stalin sense)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Alright, Catty, it's 2pm surely that bastard evil soul-sucking meeting is over and you can come back and talk about bastard evil soul-sucking vampires with us???????

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I am here! Lost Boys, let's go.... the epitome of you and I are gonna live forever vampire teenage kicks all through the night movies. and it has THE COREYS! "You guys sniffing old newsprint or something?" Classic.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Come on, that movie was a prototype for modern goth. You sleep all day, you party all night, you never grow old, you never die - but there's a CATCH!!!

Plus, you know, Keifer Sutherland when he was still hot.

Vampirism as youth fetishism - the Lost Boys after all was a reference to Peter Pan.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

ahhhh! Boy am I dim, I never caught that before. But I've never read/seen cinematic or musical theatre adaptation of Peter Pan because once Disney gets their mitts into anything it becomes pretty shit. Oh, and that movie with Robin Williams as Peter Pan and Julia Roberts as Tinkerbell? *shudder*

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

And let's not forget that Bill S. Preston, Esquire was one of the vampires....

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"24" uses the modern terrorist thriller as a metaphor for what it's like being a vampire

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Lost Boys is interesting because it has the perfect pussy's-way-out of being a vampire. you don't age, you can move about in sunlight, you live forever, but you still have the opportunity for redemption if you kill the Head Vampire, which, we have all learned, is Marge Simpson.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Keifer Sutherland might have been hotter in Flatliners, just because he wasn't wearing a mullet in that one.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

YOU'RE KIDDING ME, CATTY - you never caught that reference? Sheesh! And you with your Doctorate In English or whatever degree it is that you have!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I blame DISNEY! IT'S DISNEY'S FAULT! I don't know the whole story of Peter Pan's lost boys because I have avoided the entire franchise because it has DISNEY COOTIES!

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Disney cooties? Fie! For a start, I give you DUMBO, the greatest movie ever made. For a second... JESUS!!! HOLDING THE CLASSICS OF CHILDRENS' LITERATURE RESPONSIBILE FOR THE ABOMINATIONS OF DISNEY IS LIKE HOLDING WAGNER RESPONSIBLE FOR HITLER!!! Or, erm something.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

(It was only a matter of time before Hitler popped up in this thread. I blame Nigel Spivey.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, the Head Vampire escape clause is not specific to The Lost Boys. In fact, the entire point of Dracula was that the Harkers and Van Helsing were somehow infected with something which brought them closer to their dark master, but also they could only be released by Dracula being slain.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Nigel Spivey is the Head Vampire.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

And if we slay him, then Channel Five will never have a documentary about Nazis ever again?

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

You're right about Mina.... now did she attack anyone before they killed Dracula? Or were they able to combat her vampiric onset? I need to reread Dracula again.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh please. British TV abstaining from nonstop WWII rehashing? pfft.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

now she just lounged around whining i think

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you remember that series, Occult Secrets Of The Nazis? (or was that before you got here?) Because if we could somehow get the occult secrets to reveal that the Nazis were really vampires, then I think we would have the GRAND UNIFICATION THREAD OF ILX!!!

(THough it doesn't explain about the pirates.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

x-post, Mark S - I don't remember in the book, but in some of the films (esp. Coppola) Mina did vamp out. (Or was that Lucy?)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I am NOT recommending this movie because it was fucking awful, BUT there was an interesting plot device in Vampires: Los Muertos starring Jon Bon Bon Jovi Bovi. The Natasha Wagner character was bitten by a vampire but manages to offset the whole turning thing by taking these wacky special drugs prescribed by her Mexican doctor. It doesn't delve into the science as much as Ultraviolet would, but at one point the Head Vampire (in this case, Master) steals the pills and swallows them and is able to go out into the sun briefly. But since she eats all NW's pills, NW gets a lo-fi blood transfusion from helpful Mexican villagers.
Stephen King's 'Salem's Lot touched on medicine, too... I think one of the doctors was bitten and he cleaned his wound and then didn't turn.
But I guess it all depends on what you believe turns you into a vampire. Love at First Bite was a three-bites-and-you're-out kinda deal.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Mina vamped out and tried to attack Van Helsing in Coppolla, but he put the Host on her head and she went hisssss and ran away. (Kinda like my cat.) Lucy vamped out and then they cut off her head in the most utterly brilliant sequencing in modern cinema EVER: her head goes flying and then they serve the big slab of meat on the table. Brilliant!

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

In the Frank Langella version, it was Lucy who Dracula wanted, not Mina. And the Bela Lugosi version, I have no idea what the hell was happening there. It was a fucking sitcom starring Dracula as the Wacky Neighbor.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Kate, you're thinking of noted vampire documentary LXG :)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Many other vampire myths rely on the infectious agent paradigm - either you become a vampire because you were bitten by one (though I'm sure that was werewolves, a-WOOOOOOOOO) or else because you had contact with the blood of one.

(Oh, and x-post, in Frank Langella, I remember that the Lucy and Mina roles were either totally reversed or combined. Very confusing!)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

the coppola film i think makes far more of mina's dalliance to the dark side (for a start she doesn't return to transylvania in the book, does she?)

herzog's version of nosferatu amplifies an idea which is coded at best in murnau's, which is that after long ages of orthodox vamp-stuff, dracula is wearied even of himself, and wants oblivion and love, and chooses to remain cuddling w.mina until the sun rises and he dies

not exactly remorse, but def. vestigial soulfulness (= klaus kinski's eyes)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

What do you mean by "Mina return to Transylvania", Mark? Cause in the book, I remember distinctly that she went to Transylvania with the menfolk, because she was connected to her vampire lover, and therefore she was able to see more clearly where he was and what he was doing. (As I recall... it has been a decade since I read that book.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

where do they kill dracula in the book? i was sure it was in england! (ditto on rereading)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Hrmm, because I was convinced that it was in Transylvania. Or perhaps I'm mixing up the book with all the movies! They killed his three Brides in England, in the coffins in the crypt of the ruined abbey where he was living, but I'm sure that one "box of earth" escaped.

Am I losing my mind?

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

no, i am - i just checked on-line literature, they do return to transylvania and kill him in his castle

BUT i still think the coppola movie amplifies the dgeree to which mina wants to do drac

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, that's cause it's Winona Ryder and "Take me away from ALL THIS DEATH!!!" is the most Goth ChiXor thing that could ever be said.

(I am glad my memory is not as bad as I thought it was becoming.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

In The Lost Boys, the division between the half-undead and the full un-dead was actually killing someone - i.e. a moral decision to cross over to the dark side. Hence why Michael and the hippiegoth chick and her sprog could still go back.
which also leads into the whole 'playing around with things you don't understand = dangerous' point I made earlier in regards to Queen of the Damned.

though I'm sure that was werewolves, a-WOOOOOOOOO
I highly recommend Ginger Snaps. Best werewolf movie ever. EVER.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(For playing around with dangerous things jokes, go look at the Tangled Hair thread... oh no, apparently Ally has turned me into a vampire.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm pretty sure Dracula dies in Transylvania... the idea was that he needed to make it back to his castle before the sun went down and his powers were strengthened... Mina was the decoy. I know she and Van Helsing were outside the castle and Van Helsing killed the Brides after they killed the horses.... but I'm pretty sure they got him there.
our assignments this evening are to tredge through the books to confirm this.
The upside of Coppolla's film was it was the most faithful adaptation yet and considered the historial influence as well as Stoker's text in the retelling. And it was gorgeous to watch. Acting was eh, not so good.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

It was a good movie if you watched it with the sound off so you didn't have to deal with Winona's squeaking and Keanu's "Dude, you're like, a vampire and shit!" - it did *look* beautiful. But the acting talent of the scenerey chewers (esp Van Helsing and Dracula) was totally spoiled by the GenX brats.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and the whole male-orgasm thing as Mina sucked blood from Dracula's breast, that was pretty hot, too. I love that movie. I wrote a massive paper on it for a film studies course I did at uni and got so deep into every scene's symbolism that I was unable to tie it all together by the time it was due and ended up getting a C. (Which I thought was pretty shitty since it was clear I was going beyond the assignment and the deadline wasn't negotiable. but the prof was a little troll who looked like Davy Jones and sported a beret so really, what was I expecting. humph.)

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Winona's accent was so, so SO horrible. I love Winona but her voice does not lend itself to period pieces since her nasally Californian accent is so thick. See also: The Crucible. Her performance in Age of Innocence was okay because she just needed to act dim. And I really enjoyed Little Women despite myself....

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Gary Oldman has a clause written into his contracts that he has to either get naked or experience a pseudo-orgasm in every film he appears in!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Lucky him.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

No, lucky us! Rowr!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

eyew. Alllll yeeeeeerrrrssss......

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

What? Have you not seen Prick Up Your Ears? Sid & Nancy? State Of Grace? Are you mad?

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"Prince Vlad's scream after he drives his sword into the cross is not the voice of Gary Oldman. Lux Interior, lead singer of punk band The Cramps, recorded the scream and it was dubbed in."

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

!!!! Omigod, that's excellent!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

lots of interesting bits on the IMDB page. Apparently there's a cut scene where Mina seduces Van Helsing, which I thought was in the American version but maybe not?

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

after long ages of orthodox vamp-stuff, dracula is wearied even of himself, and wants oblivion and love, and chooses to remain cuddling w.mina until the sun rises and he dies

That's sweet.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

did anyone see Shadow of the Vampire? I think Willen Defoe as Count Orlack was utterly brilliant. Especially the scene at the end when he's been sucking on the actress all night and actually falls asleep with his teeth still in her. That's both funny and disturbing. I think his is bloodlust rather than loneliness... he's really into Greta Schröder and just wants to suck her dry. Which I suppose is his way of ravishing.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/selua/vwp?.dir=/Dracula+Characters&.dnm=Mina+and+Vlad-1.jpg&.view=t

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe this will work...

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/selua/vwp?.dir=/Dracula+Characters&.dnm=Mina+and+Vlad-1.jpg&.view=t

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck!

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

(BTW, it's almost impossible to link to photos in yahoo folders, because you have to be signed in to view them. They have to be on the actual interweb!)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

all right then. this better work...

http://www.geocities.com/catwank/hello.jpg

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

okay, clearly i am a fuckwit.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

(Geocities themselves have a problem with letting you link directly to images. For some reason, it's OK if you cut and paste the URL into browser, but not if you try to imbed it in another webpage. Ditto Tripod and most of the other free servers - sorry! It's not you. The interweb is against you.)

― kate (kate), Thursday, 30 October 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

and i think you have to credit her with it: she's a terrible writer but i think a quite a good theologian (in ref vampirology)
I think that (even though he shamelessly stole from Rice,) Mark Rein-Hagen did a much more interesting take.
Anne Rice: "Vampire Origin rises from silly, scatterbrained Egyptian legend" == Trousers
M Rein-Hagen: "Vampire Origin rises from intriguingly incomplete story in the Bible" == Hmmmm...interestink.

As for Anne Rice as a writer: Above average gothic potboiler writer, but much better at writing pr0n.
BEHOLD!

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 30 October 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay i have returned and left my idiocy on the other thread. I had some hot pictures of Gary Oldman without his shirt and Van Helsing in Mina's bodice and Nonie and Sadie lezzing up but sadly geocities will not let me share them.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

M Rein-Hagen: "Vampire Origin rises from intriguingly incomplete story in the Bible" == Hmmmm...interestink.

as long as it's not that whole Judas Iscariot = first vampire thing as explored by Wes Craven in Dracula 2000. bleh.

― Catty (Catty), Thursday, 30 October 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

yes but as ever yr wrong custos

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

ha the Judas origin is the only thing i can remember about that movie - i wonder how far a better story could run with the idea

― jones (actual), Thursday, 30 October 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I quite like Ann Rice's theological bits, like her take on the whole Christian Heaven/Earth/Hell ecosystem thing in Memnoch the Devil. I remember it seeming very logical at the time.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 30 October 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I got to about sentence two in Memnoch the Devil before slamming it shut in disgust.
Pandora was good though. Probably because there was no Lescrap in it.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 31 October 2003 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

God, I can't even remember any of the latter Rice books. I know I've *read* Memnoch, but I'm damned (heh) if I can remember a thing of the plot. The Body Thief, as well, except that I remember that it was actually a lot better than I expected. When Rice tries to do grand, sweeping, theological histories, she's dull and tedious. When she does intense, personal character driven stories, she's a lot better. Being a goth, she captures angst like no one else. But she really has not a clue about sweeping epic.

― kate (kate), Friday, 31 October 2003 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and she's be steadily disappearing up her own anus since book four of the vampire chronicles.
I prefer The Witching Hour. Except that went sour after book two and now she's cross breeding her serieseseeseses.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 31 October 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Threads like this are why I love ILx.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Friday, 31 October 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Me too! I don't feel like I have anything interesting to contribute, but this whole thread has been fascinating.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Friday, 31 October 2003 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I was hoping that you lot would maybe actually post, so this thread would cease being a 3-way luvvup between me, Catty and Mark S... sigh.

― kate (kate), Friday, 31 October 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the reason IwtV is better than any of the other books is, Rice was a Catholic who lapsed, then slowly drifted back to the fold. By Memnoch, she's one of the faithful again, and some of it reads like a damned sermon. The attitude toward religion was much less positive and questioning earlier on (plus she'd just lost a child and was pretty depressed), which I found more interesting. Maybe that's just me, though.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Friday, 31 October 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

(Me being a Catholic was lapsed and doesn't expect to un-lapse at any point = particular biases.)

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Friday, 31 October 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

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