What's the deal with Americans and apostrophes?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

For God's sake! Why do you write "Chris' car"? It's "Chris's car"! Do you SAY "Chris' car"? Or the following:

"Whose car is that?"
"Chris'."

Aargh! Surely not?

I was taught that the only time you leave off the s is when you've got too many too begin with eg Jesus' wounds, Moses' laws. What's the official rule?

― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Should you be right, I would not be able to look at any of my writings/essays ever again..

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I am American. I write and say "Chris's".

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm. Maybe it isn't an American thing. But I do mostly notice it when I read US journalism (and ILx).

― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

that only applies to plural nouns, like "cows' tails". if it is a proper noun, it of course gets the extra "s". do the british write cows's tails. i think not, but maybe so. you tell me.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

We do not write cows's tails, at least not on purpose. I'm talkin singular (and not necessarily proper) nouns ending in s eg James, Chris, (and I'm desperately trying to think of a singular common noun ending in s but the only one that come to mind is "innings" which is REALLY going to put the catses among the pigeonses (my precious)) and - oh I know "gas".

― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:34 (twenty-one years ago)

do you mean baseball innings? that is plural. i am so confused.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Forget innings. (It's singular here.) You're not confused, I'm being an idiot.

All I'm saying is that in lots of US stuff I've read, they say "James' book" instead of "James's book", and also they would say "the gas' atomic weight" instead of "the gas's atomic weight". I want to know if this is what you guys are taught, or if it's my imagination.

― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't believe that i was taught to do so. if so, i didn't listen at the time and have never written that way. only plural words ending in "s". like if you were referring to a house belonging to a family whose last name was James, you would say/write "the James' house." does that help? i know for sure i was taught to do that.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:52 (twenty-one years ago)

You're taught, with very very few exceptions, that when an apostrophe is needed to denote the possessive of a noun or name ending in s, you don't need the additional s after the apostrophe. Hence cows' butter not cows's butter and Davy Jones' Locker rather than Davy Jones's Locker. Common usage of English UK is slowly abandoning the s's; where it might have been right to call the shop Lewis's when named, just like gaol is slowly being replaced with jail.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it's to do with whether the word ends with a hard or soft s, so Chris's but James'. I have not checked this is a grammar book though.

― Madchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 10:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks. I knew suzy would know. But obviously with oops and Emily it's not universal in the US.

I'm surprised you think s's is going the way of gaol. I can't see that happening in English papers. My friend at the Telegraph says it's a sacking offence, but he tends to exaggerate.

It's still definitely Bridget Jones's Diary though.

xpost I hadn't thought of that.

― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 10:14 (twenty-one years ago)

The cows thing is entirely different, as it is a plural. The standard practice is of course that 's denotes possessive, but you don't need it on plurals, so if it belongs to one cow it's the cow's, if it belongs to many cows it's the cows'.

The problem comes with proper nouns ending in s. I favour sticking with the general rule above except where it reads very badly. As Suzy says, people don't pronounce an extra possessive s in "Davy Jones' locker" so I think it's reasonable to not write that extra s. You don't seriously risk anyone thinking it's a locker belonging to several people each called Davy Jone.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Lucy, how's your day sans ILE going?

― Mark C (Mark C), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Peachy!

― Madchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

But look at this from the Onion today:
"To Curtis' great credit, he doesn't allow this romantic game of musical chairs ... blah blah blah".

That's what I'm talking about. It's a hard s with no other s's in sight. Omg. Wtf. And no, there's no chance of confusion with a whole lot of things called Curti, but that's not the point!

― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

When I studied English as a second language at university my teachers and grammar books said NOT to do the s's thing in writing, and that in spoken language it's ok both ways - but that the s's is used mostly when the singular/plural confusion might cause problems.
Then again, I'm just a foreigner so what do I know!

― Hanna (Hanna), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

correct = James's
Moses's
Charles's
Jesus's
Boulez's

Wrong always wrong = Curtis' (unless there one Curti and two Curtis)

HOWEVER, practice, even among responsible writers, doesn't follow the rule. This becomes a different thread topic, as language, with all its components, grammar, syntax, semantics, vocabulary, spelling or orthography, is organic and evolves, when do we properly admit that a formerly nonstandard definition or spelling is acceptable? Well? When do we? Answer me, Smartypants!

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Apostrophe abuse drives me up the freaking wall

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example04s.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example02s.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example01s.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example05.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example09.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example10.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example12.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:52 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example14.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:52 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example17.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example18.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example20.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

So, I guess, whever a noun ends with an "s", it takes an apostrophe? But, again, thats just a gues's

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example51.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

My law review editor said that both are correct but he preferred ___s's because he thought it looked better than having "that lonely apostrophe hanging out by itself at the end of the word there."

I prefer __s' because it looks prettier. If the apostrophe has a problem hanging out by itself it should get a life.

― felicity (felicity), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example68.jpg

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Though I am the worst speller here I was taught to never to do s's. With the help of a spell checker I got through several university english courses without any red pen marks involving that. I alway always got nailed for there/their/they're though.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Somebody answer my question above, when do the rules change? I was definitely taught always, but always uses "s's"

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

We've discussed a similar issue here.

Spelling: Classic or Dud?

― felicity (felicity), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

In school, I was taught to always use "S'S" but Sam is right that in U.S. journalism (although I guess I didn't realize it was an exclusively American thing) "S'" is common for singular nouns ending in S. I think it's sort of like serial commas: you're taught in school to always use ", and" but in much "real-life" writing, it's common to see that final comma omitted.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i won't chime in to the main debate, but man elvis i've got your back on the whole adding an 's and that makes it plural thing that seems to be EVERYWHERE and GROWING.

how can we stop this?

― colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

By setting good example's.

― felicity (felicity), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

From what i was taught..

If the noun possessing is singular OR the noun possessing is plural and DOES NOT END IN 'S', you add the 's' NO MATTER WHAT, proper noun even..

cactus's
cacti's
James's
box's
people's
truck's
harness's

ONLY IF the noun is plural and ends with 's' do you leave the 's' off.

boxes'
trucks'
desks'
wasps'
harnesses'

if i'm wrong, well, i'm wrong.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

That is not wrong at all, but it doesn't make the other version wrong either.

As for a comma before the 'and' as you come to the end of a list of items, the version lacking that comma is much the more usual nowadays - has been for a while. I think you had an old-fashioned teacher.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

No, he had a correct teacher.

― Allyzay, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg http://www.cybercandy.co.uk/acatalog/680.jpg

― Apostrophes overcame by fluff, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The Chicago Manual of Style suggests leaving the final 's' off for Moses' and Jesus' only because they're some sort of special case, being big scriptural names.

Some newspapers might leave the 's off other proper names ending in 's,' for clarity. I don't remember what the AP Guide says.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, and all the books I've been editing for the last few weeks require serial commas, too.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Re lists and and: Fowler says the commas in A, B, C and D take the place of ands, and therefore we don't need one at the end where we state the and. I don't know about that, but if he says it is the right and more usual way, that will do me.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 21:14 (twenty-one years ago)

What's the deal with writers (like my boss) who never use one word where five will do? WORDS ARE EXPENSIVE

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

AND SO ARE COMMAS

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 21:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I use too many commas and I think I've been (subtly) made fun of for it on here. In uni I was taught to use a comma if you're not sure. My profs were weirdos, though.

― Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Donut, you are TOO right. And Martin, I do think that makes the other way wrong. Not uncommon, yet wrong.

And serial commas are critical for clarity.

"cardamom, cloves, paprika, salt and peppa."
vs.
"cardamom, cloves, paprika, salt, and peppa."

(distinction: #1 includes Spindarella, #2 is all about the flava. Word.)

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Well there barely is such a thing as 'wrong' in English. It's not like French where there are people who make the rules. For me, I'll oppose things which seem to me to make the language worse, such as eroding useful meanings and throwing random unnecessary apostrophes at plurals, but something that makes some sense, like not putting the extra s after an apostrophe when it isn't pronounced and therefore arguably reads badly, seems not to be opposed, for me.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Can we all just agree to put periods, exclamations and commas after the end-quotes? Thanks.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

That's why I posed this question above, but NO ONE will address it. Sigh.....

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I was trying to address it a bit. There isn't a simple answer. You eventually have to accept changes, and stop fighting them. There is a grey area in between when you have a choice about thinking something is bad and to be opposed, or it's acceptable or even good. I see no benefit in that extra comma in lists, and I think it's now the minority way, so I'm happy to leave it out. Apostrophes used correctly have some value, so I will moan about their misuse.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, I know you were trying to address it a bit. Thank you. And I admit that the extra "s" is indeed the minority way, a vestige of a former nobler time, and an analog to the serial comma. Huh...huh...huh...I love being reflexive.

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.