Kabul attacked

New answers, new danger.

Weirdly enough, the whole thing feels anticlimactic over here. Then again, it's a lovely Sunday morning, go figure.

I predict nothing about what happens next, beyond noting that it's interesting how they're trying to bomb some people while feed others. If they can pull *that* off, I'd be surprised...

Excellent day for my fiance to be in the US for a football game then... maybe that's irrational, I'm more worried now though.

ABC just played a tape of Bin Laden, taped before the US Afghani attack, but intended to be released when it happened. He said 'The US is feeling fear now. People in the US will not feel safe until there is a Palestinian state and the US has withdrawn from the holy places...'

It wasn't a declaration of Jihad (although a statement by one of his lieutenants was closer to that -- he actually said 'Muslims, gather your horses'! -- and some clerical groups in Pakistan have explicitly declared one). Interestingly, Ben Laden more or less confessed to the September 11th attacks. He said the perps were 'the Muslim vanguard' and 'are now in Paradise'.

It seems the US will be dangerous. One place that might be safe, though, is Japan: Bin Laden took this opportunity to list it, as he has in the past, as a victim of US aggression.

Given recent comments by Sharon, Israel may soon feel a bit less supported. But I wonder, even if palestine did get a free state would bin laden be like " ok, thanks guys! I'm audi!" ?

there will be peace demos across the country at 5pm tomorrow. be there.

They settle into the mountians and work like the viet cong . we are fucked . beyond fucked

Bin Laden doesn't give a flying fuck about the Palestinians. Their plight is just an excuse for his terrorism. And very typical of Arab governments, who profess their "concern" for the Palestinians as a way to rationalize their animosity towards Israel. Also, those same Arab countries treat Palestinians within their borders like shit (denying them citizenship and basic human rights). This isn't to condone the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians -- far from it -- but the Arab governments, not to mention folks like bin Laden, don't deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt whenever they profess their "concern" for the Palestinians.

I'm not feeling very good about this raid over Kabul right now.

if bush launches a ground attack before spring he deserves to be comitted many many people will die. many people will die anyway. we have to stop it now.

One place that might be safe, though, is Japan

Perhaps. But given that there's apparently been talk of committing the self-defense forces to the effort, I wouldn't exactly feel comfortable.

if bush launches a ground attack before spring

A massive ground attack? *Very* doubtful, in fact I would say near impossible. What's being done right now is what can be done given both political and strategic considerations. Many times over the past couple of weeks BushCo has hammered home the approach we're seeing now -- bombing plus special forces. Very, very cleverly, meanwhile, BushCo has hedged its bets via what I mentioned above, namely the aid drops and donations. Will it succeed? *shrug*

I don't know about you, but I'm kinda sad that Bin Laden won't be torn apart in the streets, his head paraded around on a stick. If we kill him before he kills himself or whatever, it'll probably be an explosion or simple gunfire.

And, also too, did you notice the dumb puppy dog expression he always has... while he's sitting there holding a gun? The guy's a fucking idiot. His expression gives it all away, "duuuuuh". He looks kind of peaceful, but that's because he's such a dope, he can't fathom inner turmoil.

Al Quaida really believe that the Afghan war brought down the Soviet Union, and that this one will bring down the US. There is no way to meet them in any demands, they want pretty much what Hitler wanted, the destruction of the jews, and lebensraum for ultra-authoritarianism.

...What makes them potentially more dangerous than Hitler is that Hitler did not have a major world religion to play with.

I heard they like young boys.

And, also too, did you notice the dumb puppy dog expression he always has... while he's sitting there holding a gun? The guy's a fucking idiot. His expression gives it all away, "duuuuuh". He looks kind of peaceful, but that's because he's such a dope, he can't fathom inner turmoil.

A Saudi G.W. Bush, you think?

Maybe Will Ferrell should start mimicking him on SNL?

Unfortunately Bin Laden is much smarter than GW Bush. The US and UK attacks on Afghanistan are exactly what he hoped and planned for. This is his big chance to ignite the muslim world behind his program.

Define smart, please.

However, Allot of Muslim governments seem to be backing the US. I'm sure Pakistan is pleased as punch to be admitted to the table despite building nuclear weapons. I agree Bin Laden wants a Holy War but I don't think many muslims will go for it.

Define smart...

Bin Laden is evil, but smart. His business career has earned him vastly more money than Bush's lacklustre oil and sports careers did. He even profited, monstrously, on the stock exchange from his own terrorist actions on September 11th.

He initiated these appalling events, which were strategically brilliant and had exactly the result he intended. Despite controlling very scant industrial-military resources, UBL continues to set the agenda -- from a fucking cave in the mountains!

His agenda is insane, and he will be defeated in the end. But thinking he's stupid is not the place to start that defeat.

Basically, UBL's cleverest move is an old judo tactic. Use your opponent's great weight and strength against him. His use of US planes against the US, his use of the stock exchange to generate money from an attack on world trade, and now his use of the invasion of Afghanistan to rally support for his ideas in the muslim world... These are all judo tricks. Wait for your opponent to attack, then swing his weight against him.

See, I don't think he's evil. I think he really thinks what he's doing is right. I think he's ignorant for not seeing the larger picture and stupid for not understanding reality. I'll agree that he's crafty and crazy like a fox. Now, Georgie, on the other hand, is a relatively smart man with a poor education and "no head for business" as they say.

I think that if the west were thinking in 'judo' terms, they wouldn't be launching the usual 'surgical' air strikes against Afghanistan (with the inevitable civilian casualties wiping out sympathy for the US when they mount up beyond the 6000 American deaths). Instead they should try to use the weight of the muslim world against UBL. What we need now is for a figure in the muslim world with the status and authority the pope has in the christian world to denounce UBL as a heretic, an apostate, a blasphemer, etc. He needs to be isolated from mainstream muslim public opinion. A fatwa against him would help. He needs not just his financial roots cut, but his charismatic authority curtailed.

See, I don't think he's evil. I think he really thinks what he's doing is right.

Well, Hitler and Stalin didn't think that what they did was "evil," either. Quite the opposite. What the actors themselves think of their actions isn't dispositive of whether it's "right" or "evil."

I think Momus makes a good analogy between Bin Laden's tactics and judo. With Bush in the Oval Office, we are literally the world's 300- pound pinhead, very strong but very dumb and prone to doing ignorant things (even if it's in retaliation for a wrong done). That presumes, though, that Bush is making the decisions himself, which I really doubt.

we need now is for a figure in the muslim world with the status and authority the pope has in the christian world to denounce UBL as a heretic, an apostate, a blasphemer, etc.

But does such a person even exist?

But does such a person even exist?

Maybe the Ayatollah Khomeni was the last such figure in the muslim world. Now it's too late; anyone claiming such authority and turning on UBL would be seen, like the Northern Alliance, as American puppets. And the danger is that the new 'Pope' is none other than Ussama himself.

Cat Stevens....

That presumes, though, that Bush is making the decisions himself, which I really doubt.

Story on CNN today: Dick Cheney moved out of White House, for security reasons. (Implied: Bush can stay there, he's expendable.)

On the other hand, if we're serious about taking out the Taliban, then I think that it would be inevitable that some sort of military action would have to be used. The Taliban are a bunch of ignorant and nasty assholes, to be sure, with a lot of opposition within Afghanistan (and not just among this Northern Alliance bunch). But they aren't without resources, and probably not beyond conscripting Afghanis and other Muslim fanatics to fight their "jihad" with them.

I've been pretty blunt in my immense dislike for Bush and his Administration. But I have no answer as to what is to be done and I wouldn't want to be in their position now in deciding what is to be done.

Maybe the Ayatollah Khomeni was the last such figure in the muslim world.

Hardly. He represented Iranian Shiite Muslim belief, no more, and that itself is a minority branch of Islam. There has been no specific equivalent of the Pope -- itself a poor parallel to draw -- in Islam since the caliphate was finally abolished hundreds of years ago. Islam's own fractured nature means that while I understand Momus' fears here, I think the situation is far more fluid -- for better and for worse -- than is being imagined.

Well, evil would mean acknowledgement of one's own evil, you know, like Satan (who doesn't exist)? Otherwise, what's called "evil" is just a bunch of wrong ideas about the world. Evil is a word that should be substituted with a more correct description of the situation being described. Our gov't calling terrorists "evil" is like the pot calling the kettle black.

wrong ideas = wrong action. "Evil" is subjective, especially when religion is involved. Let's eliminate it from our vocabulary.

But I have no answer as to what is to be done and I wouldn't want to be in their position now in deciding what is to be done.

Quite. This decision that has been made is anything but perfect and I have my own fears, probably always will, but frankly I would challenge anyone to come up with another solution that would work. I said before that my biggest problem with the left in response to this whole thing is that while they were quite right to identify and point out the many reasons for resentment of the US in the Muslim world, the past four weeks saw absolutely no proposal for getting hold of bin Laden for trial that would work. There were wishes for 'extradition' -- exactly how was *that* going to work?

Clearly the delay and build-up was essentially a breathing space for the Taleban to turn bin Laden over, and if that had happened, who knows what would have occurred? I'm thinking the power politics game would continue there but without open US warfare. However, either the Taleban can't hand him over or they won't do it, but they've been scared enough to keep offering up more and more concessions elsewhere (power sharing in response to the Northern Alliance's new agreement with the king, the last minute statement that they'd hand over the aid workers still held there). I think you can properly read all that as a desperation move on their part, and likely indicates that the Taleban is as much a pawn in this whole situation as anyone else. Now we'll see what happens.

I said before that my biggest problem with the left in response to this whole thing is that while they were quite right to identify and point out the many reasons for resentment of the US in the Muslim world, the past four weeks saw absolutely no proposal for getting hold of bin Laden for trial that would work. There were wishes for 'extradition' -- exactly how was *that* going to work?

Exactly -- witness the latest pissing match between Chomsky and Hitchens (to the extent that the latter can still be considered "left," anyway). The left has a hard and unenviable task of its own in all of this -- while discussing Muslim resentment of U.S. actions may be correct in assessing what is to be done to retaliate for September 11, if that line is pushed too stridently it comes off as grossly insensitive to the families of the victims and gives Bin Laden credence that he doesn't deserve (that is, that he is truly the voice of aggrieved Muslims instead of the homicidal maniac hellbent for destruction and wrapping his dementia in Islam that he really is). It is inevitable that the Flying Monkey Right would attack those who don't think that "bombs away" is the answer, but by no means is everyone who questions the seemingly reflexive "no war" of some on the left a knuckle-dragging reactionary either. It's the same sort of pinched, offputting, holier-than-thou postering that plagued Nader's presidential campaign, and they've learned nothing from that debacle. I don't want to imply that I support the "bomb 'em back to the Stone Age" rhetoric or tactics, but those on the left aren't using the smartest methods to get their points across.

In many ways, the situation of those who don't support all-out war against Afghanistan is analogous to those who choose to become public defenders or criminal defense attorneys. For the latter, their job is to defend people who often are guilty of committing some horrible crime or other. In the case of such clients, a defender is really defending the Constitution and the rule of law, and their attendant guarantees of due process, equal protection, freedom from cruel and unusual punishments, and a fair trial. But that doesn't mean that those they have to defend are good people, by no means. Likewise, no- one in their right mind is arguing that Osama bin Laden or the Taliban are "good people," or that Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic were likewise "good people." It doesn't follow that, since such as they are clearly assholes, the civilians under their leadership should be indiscriminately slaughtered. But clearly they should be brought to justice. Trying to make that argument, and not sounding like an apologist for the indefensible, is not easy and never has been. Aeschylus's Eumenides demonstrates that this is an ancient problem (and Aeschylus has been on my mind a lot these past few weeks).

Osama bin Laden = UBL? I've seen this elsewhere, but I don't get it: why not OBL? Or is it just another dimension to his crazy evil genius? We won't find him cuz we can't even initialise his name properly.

If Ussama Bin Laden was such a great strategist, why did he start that silly Ultimate Band List site anyway?

(Sorry, I had to be the first...)

MS, read this for UBL USAMA BIN LADEN - FBI Most Wanted

UBL is the British intelligence abbreviation. (Momus reveals he is one of those spy chaps, eye patched to blend in with Mullah Omar's men.) The french call the fellow Oussama Ben Laden, just to be different. I propose we all call him Hitler, just to be on the same page.

"Taliban? Ah no, we are the Taleban, you want those caves up the other end of the valley." (Wily bearded man points towards the Northern Alliance...)

Aeschylus has been on my mind a lot these past few weeks

You know, I was just watching an old interview with George W. on C-SPAN and he said he often turned to Aeschylus in times of inner turmoil. One of his favourite plays during the Clinton years was 'Prometheus Bound'. W identified himself with Prometheus, apparently, and saw Clinton as Zeus.

'See, Prometheus knows Zeus is destined to fall,' W enthused. 'In fact, he holds the secret of the Olympian's doom -- a certain woman that will be his undoing -- but Prometheus will not reveal her name. Even amid the fire from heaven that is hurled at him in the frightening climax, Prometheus remains fearless and silent.'

Bush added, incongruously, 'We will smoke the evil doers out of their caves. Did you know that Aeschylus met his death when an eagle mistook his bald head for a rock and dropped a tortoise on it?'

Did you know that Aeschylus met his death when an eagle mistook his bald head for a rock and dropped a tortoise on it?

Actually, I think that was Lucretius, author of Of the Nature of Things (another favorite ancient text of mine).

It probably happened a lot in those days. All those wise old bald heads propped immobile in shady nooks on Parnassus, just thinking.

Just saw resonably large anti-war protest go down State St. (Chicago). They had candles and peace signs and were chanting really loudly. The buildings picked up the sound and it echoed back and forth off the walls.

Ironically, my day started (at 7:30, getting up for work) with thousands of track-suited marathon runners going down State St. I wattched them groggily from the window. What a day.

Apparently the US planes are outfitted with T34 Tortoise Bombs to drop on the Afghanis' heads when they are in their sand tubs.

We care a lot about the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines
about the NY, SF, and LAPD
about you people, about your guns
about the wars you're fighting
gee, that looks like fun!

I was thinking of starting a spelling-and-pronunciation-check thread for UBL. My favourite is Jack Straw's "Bin Lay-dun".

Meanwhile, the streets around the British Embassy here in Brussels have been completely sealed off this morning. Oh shit.

I wasn't scared this morning until I saw the huge amount of police present around Whitehall. It's CRAWLING with them, but nothing's sealed off or changed so far apart from our security level. Which makes me feel a lot safer.

I think the most interesting thing so far is that I expected huge protests throughout the Muslim world. Turns out not to be the case from what I can tell -- two rallies in Pakistan, apparently, when I would have thought there'd be more going on there, and scattered gatherings elsewhere. Hm.

Big demos on the Gaza strip violently suppressed by Palestinian Authority police. 20,000 in one Pakistan demo alone (CNN), muslim leader now under house-arrest. Iran describes attacks as 'unacceptable'.

― stevo, Monday, 8 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That makes a little more sense, thanks. I note with interest this:

Big demos on the Gaza strip violently suppressed by Palestinian Authority police.

A tangled web here indeed. Not the first time something like this has happened, but arguably the most important in terms of the Authority's involvement. Where next?

you linked us to greenspun

ahem, sorry about that. #2 Palestinian demos

For a Pakistani perspective:

The Friday Times independent Pakistan weekly
The Frontier Post newspaper
The Nation newspaper