Althusser

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can you give me an idiot proof primer ? (ie how he relates to structalists and post structalists, how he relates to classical marxism, what he thot of stalin and sarte, where to start)

anthony easton (anthony), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmmm, don't know much, but I saw a (rather absurd) stand-up comic tonight who referenced "ideological state apparatuses"!

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:13 (twenty-two years ago)

From a literary angle, Warren Montag's book _Louis Althusser_ has been recommended to me, but I have only looked at the first chapter which is available in pdf from the publisher's website, so cannot vouch for it:

book details here

first chapter here

There was an issue of Yale French Studies entitled 'Depositions of Labour: Althusser, Balibar, Macherey and the Labour of Reading' which has some excellent essays in it, but at a slightly more advanced level of complexity.

alext (alext), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Also Catherine Williams has a look at Althusser in _Contemporary French Philosophy_. If you want something good, you'll have to look at very recent stuff, since the later developments of Althusser's thought (in fact, the idea that it develops *at all*) are not really recognised in most of the stuff on him.

alext (alext), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I read his autobiography a while back, "The Future Takes A Long Time" - it was pretty readable.

Jonathan Z., Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I gather he was

i) mental (as in psychiatrically ill)

ii) a Stalinist

iii) a purveyor of the most hardline anti-humanist Marxism imaginable.

I am reading the short McLellan book about Marx at the moment. He is dismissive of Althusser, not so much for having false ideas, but for attempting to put his ideas across as a restatement of Marx's when in fact they are a revision.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:24 (twenty-two years ago)

althusser was militantly late-marxist; he practically ONLY dug 'capital' maybe 'grundisse'. the most legendary attack on althusser among a large number is EP Thompson's book length 'the poverty of theory' (1978) which is also a defense of the marxist tradition of historical materialism.

althusser thought marx was humanist romantic shit b4 his 'epistemological break' in 1848; debord, conversely, thought he todally lost it at the same point (so both more or less accept the 'communist manifesto'. overused words in althusser include 'science', 'rigour', 'humanist'. he was the leading intello of the PCF in the mid-sixties which was run on stalinist lines. he started out in a seminary b4 joining the PCF, which thompson typically makes a lot of.

it ended badly for him.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)

colin mcc4be in his new godard book describes alth - who was cc's tutor for a while - as "violently ANTI-stalinist" (the "anti" surprised me a bit, given the orthodoxy these days, but what does he mean by "violently"?)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:43 (twenty-two years ago)

he locked up stalinists in remote camps/contrived to have them starved to death. i dunno how col figures that really; 'poverty of theory' uses stalin's speeches to poin up their similarly mechanistic view of the 'base/superstructure', um, mechanism.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

whatever happened to balibar hindess and hirst?

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(sorry anthony we are not being helpful)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

(i mean, *i'm* not)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

they were second div. c-mac's guy was pesh-something, wasn't he?

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Althusser = murdered his wife and ended his days in a loony bin
Foucault = died of HIV-related illness
Barthes = killed by a bus
Deleuze = committed suicide leaping from a window

If I were Derrida I'd be a worried man...

Jonathan Z., Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

barthes = laundry van!

is levi-strauss still alive? surely not...

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

after a nice steak with like jean moulin or someone.

didn't kno deleuze had died.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Deleuze died fairly recently. Levi-Strauss still alive. I met him once!

Jonathan Z., Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:05 (twenty-two years ago)

he must be terribly ancient! well done him!

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

alright
so is he a stalinist or isnt he, and some one elcuidate 1848, please.
(sorry i am sillystupid about these things)

anthony easton (anthony), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

whatever happened to balibar hindess and hirst?

Is this a rhetorical question?

Balibar still rocking along, churning out books and articles, somewhere between Laclau and Mouffe and Habermas in the rad. democrat continuum. His book with Wallerstein still gets more attention than I think it deserves. Hirst sadly recently deceased, his stuff on Associative democracy worth looking at for any Brit leftists, although I'm not so sure about Charter 88 with whom he was involved. Hindess now = post-Foucauldian.

alext (alext), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

1848: somewhat coincidental publication of 'the communist manifesto' in same year as grebt bourgeouis/nationalist revolutions in 'germany', austria, france, etc. marx was involved in the former. after this date marx moved from germany/paris to soho, and thence to hampstead, where he for a long time gave up action in favor of deep immersion in economics, in an attempt to back up what hobsbawm called the 'inspired guess' of his earlier, funnier work (which was more or less unavailable till the 1930s). althusser thought that only the later economic work was valid cos all 'moralism', 'humanism' and other dreadful, dreadful things had been expunged from it (which isn't quite tru anyway).

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

so is he a stalinist or isnt he, and some one elcuidate 1848, please.

Althusser didn't break with the French communist party when many other intellectuals did. PCF official line was pro-Soviet, when many other socialist groups (e.g. Socialisme ou Barbarie (featuring Castoriadis, Lyotard amongst others)) were explicitly anti-Stalinist. Hence calling Althusser Stalinist = lazy way to dismiss his ideas. (sorry Enrique, we've been over this before, but it's now often suggested that Althusser's work evolves over time, and that he goes through at least three phases. You're confuting the first science / ideology with the second (reading).)

1848: easiest way to pigeonhole Marxists = which bits of Marx did they have access to / did they prefer. The rediscovery of Marx's early work was a big influence on early Marcuse, for example, and the rest of what is sometimes called the 'Western Marxist' tradition. Althusser draws on somewhat dodgy idea of 'epistemological break' drawn from a tradition of French history-of-thought writers like Canguilhelm (sp.?) and Bachelard, to make a polemical point: forget the early Marx (more Hegelian, more speculative / idealist) and focus on the 'scientific' later work. How long Althusser stands by this radical position is unclear to me. It has been suggested that the emphasis on 'reading' Capital (2nd phase Althusser? My chronology is wack here) implies continuous and experimental interpretation rather than a dogmatic excavation of its 'truth' or even 'true method'.

alext (alext), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

all 'moralism', 'humanism' and other dreadful, dreadful things had been expunged from it

'humanism' has quite specific meaning here though, Althusser's target is surely the previous generation of thinkers whose reading of Hegel was heavily anthropological, under the influence of Kojeve. Hence needing to overstate that he is after Marx *not* Hegel.

alext (alext), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:22 (twenty-two years ago)

alext knows his stuff much better than i; however, 1848 is doubly important because the change in marx's work wasn't just a development of thought; althusser made a marxist (materialist) reading of marx and saw that the romanticism/idealism of early marx was somehow objectively invalidated by the final bourgeois victory of 1848.

Hence calling Althusser Stalinist = lazy way to dismiss his ideas

which is true; but the point is that althusser's stalisnism went beyond his ideas, and the PCF had a lamentable history judged in political terms (which is how althusser wd, at least in part, want to be judged). most notoriously the PCF dragged its feet in '68.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

thompson's hegemony in the UK re althusser = EPT KNEW HOW TO WRITE!!

notorious latterday marxist error (cheeky redux):
since "ideas-change-minds" = "idealism", which is considered bad, therefore attention to style of address = a mere bourgeois vanity, therefore any-old-how is OK, hence GODAWFUL CLUNKY PROSE WHICH RENDERS COMATOSE AT 8000 PACES, protected by daft indie-style belief that lack of effect/affect/response BY ITSELF demonstrates superior intellectual/political/moral worth

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Or in Jameson's case 'I must write in complex ways because I want to be seen to be as smart as the French and German writers I like' which rapidly becomes 'I must write badly to hide the gaping cracks in my argument'.

alext (alext), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

haha thankless TS: prose style of uk althusserians vs prose style of social!st w0rker editorials

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

slammin' stuff. basically, though, when i first got up in this board i had NO IDEA that alext is like todally an expert in this field; so listen to him anyway.

but ultimately the truth of mark s' comments is the reason i can't venture further into the 1 page-per-hour world that is post-something-or-otherian marxism.

mind you, this morning i read a lindsay anderson piece from '57, full of 'human values' yadda, which briefly made me more althusserian than the man himself.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

If: "ideas-change-minds" = "idealism", which is considered bad

then why were the latterday Marxists bothering to argue anything at all? (Sorry if that's a stupid question. I don't understand this stuff too well.)

slb, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:59 (twenty-two years ago)

which piece was that? (and where?)

(i am v.allergic also to that kind of bullying quasi-left moralism which i suspect u mean: its fashionable dominance in certain eras has surely been a reason why "anti-humanism" etc comes to have such a strong appeal as they close)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

no, slb yr question is the correct one: it's just one that seems periodically to get lost in favour of "workerist" and "deeds-not-words" posturing, which are almost always as silly and self-destructive as they're vehement

(i always liked the labour party formulation btw: "workers by hand and brain")

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

'ten feet tall' (sight and sound vol 1 no 27 -- or vice versa -- july 1957). it's about 'problem pictures' in hollywood of the chayesvsky school, polemically bigging these up over the 'romanticism' of aldrich, ray (interestingly, factoring in lambert's departure for ray and LA in, what? march '56) and -- yes -- richard brooks (other fans include, erm, rivette -- guys?).

so these films, like poitier/cassavetes hoe-down 'ten feet tall' and something with anthony perkins and '12 angry men' are better because they lack the 'exhibitionism' of 'rebel' and also see that social problems can be solved.

the directors he's digging were all tv vets -- frankenheim, lumet -- so at the end he says: grebt films -- but they aren't 'cinematic', which makes you wonder what his beef with ray is?????? crazy stuff.

also on an 'if' tip: anthony perkins and cassavetes and poitier are better than clift,. brando and dean because they're not 'egotistical'. right on linz!

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

is it actually in an old copy of S&S or in a collection?

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

in a cobwebbed old library. it was lots of old issues bound into a volume, but it didn't look like one sold on the open market. cd send notes if helpful.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

(btw by "workerist" i mean the idea that beefy stahknovites who disdained book-larnin but were good in a pub ruckus were the entire revolutionary soul of the future) (i still actually think that the issue of "levels of literacy" is a real one, and that the structuralists and post-structuralists - cf the "linguistic turn" - were onto something u&k, however badly they fucked it up for everyone else)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

do you mean like the lacanian metaphor can be applied to the actual historical phenomenon of mass literacy???

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

libraries are my bane - my first visit to the bfi's will surely wake the balrog and this book will get as long and unfinished as all the others :(

"a real one" = "a real one politically"

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

haha that sounds like a can of worms i must leave unopened for this morning enrique

my mind already flashed "unconscious structured like a language" => structure of "political unconscious" beyond academic "elite"? => cf derrida on freud => yes but cf chomsky on deep structure and political implications

and then there were kalxons and red lights flashing and those spaceship iris-doors started closing like when the core is overloaded and you have to get to the lifepods asap

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i can't quite explain why i read it. initial idea: write something about nick ray and sell it (hook=nft ray-fest in jan). time passed. i read. still, beats working.

hrm! i can't start there till i've read lacan (as opposed to glosses in film theory books) nahaha. still, glad i wasn't totally tangential there.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:25 (twenty-two years ago)

(ie i have an s&s review on a documentary on south african music in ref the Struggle to complete by 4!!)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:25 (twenty-two years ago)

bung some stuff in abt humanism. try to take on style of LA.

enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I seem to remember a longstanding ambiguity re. whether it was a laundry van, bread van or other motor vehicle that did for poor RB.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

The gag remains that he cldn't read road signs, tho'

All I remember from having Althusser glossed for me at Goldsmiths = the interpolation of the subject

Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

five months pass...
Read "Machiavelli and Us", it is good.

Dan I. (Dan I.), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 07:11 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...
lenin and philosophy and other essays c/d?

caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Friday, 27 May 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

imo wrongheaded, but so influential i guess you have to wade through them, i guess. probably of historical interest only.

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 12:34 (twenty years ago)

i guess.

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 12:34 (twenty years ago)

hmm, i'd heard it was good and i have been reading some lenin. i might put it off until i read more, anyway.

caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

oh i just noticed i had posted some angry stuff here before, which worryingly was like some angry stuff i posted the other day. but as i was saying in the latter, it's totally mystifying why he still gets good write-ups after all the (pretty definitive) refutations of his stuff in the 70s. within academic history he's just nowhere, things like the ISAs and RSAs... i mean there are probably good things in kautsky, but ffs.

i think the good rep he still apparently has in eng lit and cultural studs and film theory has something to do with the totem of '1968', ie his project is spuriously related to the still not-very-well understood conflagration that occurred. but if you actually read 'ideology and state apparatuses', his response to may '68, with some idea of the communist party's conduct during same... the picture is not a pretty one.

in 'rip it up and start again' reynolds at least says that the 'althusserian' chic of some of the political bands was totalluy at odds with their 'situationism', but usually the two are sort of lumped in as '60s french theory' of some sort.

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

I dunno enrique, he seems pretty unpopular. If there's residual popularity it's more of a sideways thing insofar as he resurrected Gramsci before it became fashionable to do so (with Laclau etc.). I'm sympathetic to Althusser a bit 'cos I think interpellation is fairly u & k as a critical concept, and while ISAs per se may seem like a fairly heavy-handed idea it's always useful to think about ideology in this material fashion (as long as you recognise that it's not the whole story - which of course Althusser didn't).

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:26 (twenty years ago)

is that true about gramsci? i mean, he was intrumental in the PCF's purge of the 'italian' faction, and it was after all the italians who rediscovered gramsci in the early 50s. i thought he was unpopular, but otoh caitlin said she'd hear he was good -- where from, k-punk??!!

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

Enrique ISAs are like, totally based on Gramsci's concept of hegemony, and Althusser actually admits this outright. (to some extent "overdetermination" is also based on Gramsci, although Althusser is more cautious about extended free reign contingency to the superstructure)

I noticed in the other thread that you're not too keen on interpellation. I must admit that I've been more taken with what Zizek has done with it (primarily in How Did Marx Invent The Symptom?) than Althusser's initial formulation.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

althusser's assessment of his own relation to the marxist tradition is not one i'd take at face value! i mean, it has certain structural similarities to 'hegemony', but is much cruder, much more absolute, and whereas hegemony is one class dominating, ISAs almost transcend society; althusser's 'structures' exist outside of history, in some respects. but also gramsci is so much more supple and historically-based in his assessments; hegemony is a concept, but not perhaps a master-concept. and politically althusser's conduct was, as i say, very anti-gramsci (ie anti-gramscian-ethos) and pro-party.

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

Oh yes I'd agree with all of that - my point was more that for that many western Marxists Althusser may have been the first time they come across Gramsci, hegemony etc.

One quibble point: while Althusser is anti-historical generally, I don't think that the ISA/RSA model is specifically anti-historical - rather it is/was the current set-up by which the ahistorical process (interpellation; the subject's constitution via concrete structures generally) operates. The appearance of overly rigid structuration in this specific instance strikes me as rising as much from Althusser's love of numbered schema and dot points and the like.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

i'm working my way through thompson's "poverty of theory" and enjoying that quite a bit. whoever said he could write was on it. pairing a reading of the isa essay and thompson's book would present a compelling introduction, pro and con, to louis

reich marx sandwich, Friday, 27 May 2005 13:52 (twenty years ago)

Another good overview of all this stuff: Jorge Larrain's Marxism & Ideology.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

oh sure, a lot of resistance to althusser is a matter of style. the fkn italicws. but also this -- "I don't think that the ISA/RSA model is specifically anti-historical - rather it is/was the current set-up by which the ahistorical process (interpellation; the subject's constitution via concrete structures generally) operates" -- raises massive problems for historians, partly because of the use of lacan. the reason i've turned to deleuze is to do with my own way through this. the deleuze i've been reading says that the freudian/lacanian mode always feeds problems into an ahistorical machine which produces the answer 'mommy-daddy', but that if you read, say, 'predident schreber's own work, you'll find a massive socio-historical content, while freud's reading just concentrates on the missing father.

the gramsci connection i'm interested in -- fwiw it definitely wasn't althusser who brought him to england. but i like stories about how writers get disseminated.

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

" the deleuze i've been reading says that the freudian/lacanian mode always feeds problems into an ahistorical machine which produces the answer 'mommy-daddy'"

I think that more recent uses of Lacan are a bit more advanced than this though. for example Zizek (who I use a lot i know, but i'm most familiar with him) says that the "ahistorical" portion (ie. the Real) is not a positive actually existing thing but the inherent failure of complete/successful symbolization in any socio-historical manifestation of the symbolic order - so the "real" of capitalism is vastly different from the "real" of paganism, say.

This is not actually vastly different from D&G!

Of course it goes without saying that Althusser's use of Lacan wasn't terribly sophisticated (TS: Althusser's use of Lacan vs Marcuse's use of Freud)

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

not to derail this thread or anything, but the latest d&g quote that flipped my wig: "There is only desire and environments, fields, forms of herd instinct." explains conformity and loss of self in social situations to imagined norms geared for acquiring sex. sort of freudian, i guess. to un-non-sequitor, does anybody know, has lacanian Desire ever been used specifically to salvage althusser's metaphysics? that might make for interesting reading

reich marx sandwich, Friday, 27 May 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

ha ha read Zizek if you haven't already! How Did Marx Invent The Symptom? Although Zizek is much more Hegelian than Althusser himself would be prepared to countenance.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

i've only ever read the sublime object of ideology. maybe there's a salvage job in there. i don't remember a word of it though except "lacan." over and over again, "lacan." i did buzz along on an intellectual high while reading it, just too bad nothing stuck.

reich marx sandwich, Friday, 27 May 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

Hmmm, don't know much, but I saw a (rather absurd) stand-up comic tonight who referenced "ideological state apparatuses"!
-- jaymc (jmcunnin...), November 26th, 2003 2:13 AM. (jaymc)

Was this R*b B*scemi? I can imagine him using that phrase.

n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

to complete the circle, zizek has done a book on deleuze (well, on jim carrey and low-fat bacon, but titled 'zizek on deleuze').

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 14:25 (twenty years ago)

o.k so i'm curious how ppl understand "overdetermination" coz i've gotten some sense of how the concempt might work for me, but i suspect that it isn't what the concept is "supposed" to be. this might be becuz i actually understand systems of linear equations and matrices and stuff, a little, and so i try to make the analogy work more than it should?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 27 May 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)

i mean i think it makes it worse when ppl. try to reply with an idea of "underdetermination" which a) disrupts a unitary (monist) concept of the totality and b) makes the mathmatical metaphors even more totally silly.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 27 May 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)


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