TS: Trusta Angst vs Workerist Posing

I've been both, can I take sides?

one is the manifestation of the other?

Is this thread only for people who come from Upper backgrounds?

What about trusta posing (yuppie debt culture) vs. workerist angst?

i went without a sofa for 6 months!! and we had no chairs for the three of us!

hard times on £6ph.

in re: upper, i spose this applies to ppl in same social 'milieu' as trustas, which is quite broad, though basically middle-class.

though, of course, workerist posing by resolutely working class people certainly exists also. hyperreality in effect?

I've had a really up-and-down background. Although I do come from a quite priviliged background, there have been long stretches of financial hardship. There were times in my childhood where we were rolling in money and attending prep schools and going to the opera, and there were times when my dad decided "he didn't have to work" and we ate ramen noodle and hid the car in the garage so it wasn't reposessed. So therefore I tend to have a "what happens, happens" attitude to money.

I've had enough money at points to know that money comes with its own problems and causes divisions and wrecks families. And I've been broke enough at other times to know that being poor fucking sucks and causes divisions and wrecks families.

Perhaps some people think I'm boasting when I talk about my "trust fund" - well, maybe I am, but it's more in a sense of "wow, it was fantastic! I had a blast! And then it ran out and I was back to ramen noodles." Perhaps it's my way of reassuring myself when times are bad for me, that things can improve at the drop of a hat (or the drop of an elderly relative, as it may be!).

I *do* know trustas who have never had to work (except maybe vanity jobs) but that's not been my experience. Am I jealous of them? Sure. But I console myself that my periods of poverty have been "character building" and have taught me self reliance, and have taught me to enjoy money when I have it, and not get too stressed out when I don't have it.

working in an office is an oft used arbiter of class position. but this doenst take into account the decline of manufacturing, and the rise of office based employment. also, many office type jobs (admin etc) are much worse paid than remaining manufacturing sector (though there is a side issue here about how the middle class in the uk is getting poorer). but then often working class families can be in better financial positions than middle class families anyway, something which is not a new phenomenon

(x-post)

No, it's not. Sorry.

i think the definition of working class is more maleable now, so its something that people can affect without there being a 'real' to reference. of course there is a real, but, its more amorphous. and if you look at workerist posing, it is often based on outdated conceptions of it

this has possibly been the case since some point between 1958-1963

my experience sounds relatively similar to kate's, but i know i've gone in for more posing than most. snobbery is obviously worse, because snobbery is asserting injustice, inverted snobbery is a mutated way of denying it.

It's the same logic as, you cannot fight violence with more violence.

still, if it were me, i'd just take the fucking cash, wouldnt bother me, just give me the pounds and pence

of course you can fight violence with violence!

On a societal level, no you can't. What has the "War On Terrorism" done? Provoked more terrorism.

anyway, sometimes you have to fight violence with violence. the first person to mention when loses!!

but that being said - i enjoy the poor and the filthy rich. neither have many issues regarding class. they just want to get loaded and have a good time.

OOOOOO joe orton!!

I think Gareth speaks much truth above about the malleability of the class situation, and that most people here are pretty much middle class. My parents were working class, I am not - though of course many of my attitudes and hence poses probably come from them. Trust funds are not a million miles away from inheritances, they just come at different times of our lives perhaps. If my parents died tomorrow I would suddenly have a fair bit of money toplay with merely because of accident of the cost of London property. Equally the cost of London property ios what is stopping middle class me, with a nice secure well paying job, from actually doing the middle class thing of buying my own home.

I tend to agree with Kate that inverted snobbery is as bad as snobbery. Both are arguments based on bogus assumptions (poor people are not educated so their opinions are worthless, rich people have never lived so their opinions are tat).

Because if you are happy, nice working classes all "we have built ourselves CHARACTER unlike you good for nothing aristocrats" then they will just shrug and say "jolly good, carry on building your character then, we're having too much fun being rich. Good day for a hunt, eh?"

you cannot get the Upper Classes to contribute to socialism with guilt

true, but you might get them to with the use of laws, etc! it's not about guilt, but about an economic system that's based on inequality. personalizing it is a crime of all classes.

It doesn't matter if you're Upper Class or you're a newly minted member of the "Working Class" - I mean, Thatcher got in on convincing those members of the Working Classes to be selfish and un-socialist.

So, let's say I'm rich, I'm powerful, I'm a member of the Establishment. *You* convince *me* on socialism. You tell me what's in it for me. Nothing!

the point is even under democratic socialism (as opposed to a revolutionary takeover) you don't need to persuade: the powers of state enable you to nationalize or otherwise seize (eg into hands of autonomous councils) private assets. but if you need case for socialism, apart from its obvious justice, then, like, it'll end your alienation from yr fellow wo/man < /spart>

The whole point of socialism is, you don't get it, unless you convince everybody on it.

(Besides, I'm not convinced at all that Socialism is a perfect economic or political strategy. I still swear by enlightened capitalism with a socialist support infrastructure.)

To answer the question, there's got to be a third way. And I doubt that third way is pure socialism, either.

You have to persuade the elite that there is "something else" in it for them. And you do that with a carrot, not with a stick.

anyway thread is basically about middle class lifestyle choice, not actual politics.

That's a very interesting assertion. And one that bears examination.

Because trusta angst takes two forms: the "the rich are dull and tedious and obsessed with money and I'm going off to be an artist and express myself, maaaaa" self obsessive type (much more common) and the "the world is so unjust, I'm going off to build wells in Africa and fight global capitalism" type (far less common).

Enrique, don't tell us what this thread is about.

i'm not entirely convinced that theres that much altruism in trusta angst. to an extent yes, but i think its very bound up with views of the self. i think that is often where desires to contribute in some way come from, out of a realisation that everything they have isnt because of their own actions. i think this can also manifest itself in denial

I often make fun of my "Harley Street Socialist" great-uncle, and how he dragged my dad into local politics. And I was actually completely insulted when Marcello started going off on how "that's not socialism" etc. etc.

Because honestly, I think that actually *trying to do something* through a sense of obligation and philanthropy, as a life-long commitment, rather than a "gap year experiment" is a lot more worthy than sitting around "being working class" and moaning about the establishment.

Enrique, don't tell us what this thread is about.

pete -- don't tell me what to post!

Snobbery is only short-hand for other deeper seated opinions, and I hate myself when I catch myself often lapsing into either kind.

i'd question pete's 'more qualified' assertion because the very reason uk publishing is stagnant (says a frustrated freelancer) is because it's a big establishment circle jerk.

I try to ONLY speak of individuals as trustas, if I know them, and I know the situation. I try not to blame nebulous concepts without having specific examples.