Controversial Idea...

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Today I had en epiphany, an absolutely brillant idea:

Why not put electromagnets on revolving doors to generate electricity?

Think about it.

Dante-Cubed (Sean3), Sunday, 7 December 2003 08:00 (twenty-one years ago)

And have it hooked up to a counter on the Intarwebz!

Girolamo Savonarola, Sunday, 7 December 2003 08:47 (twenty-one years ago)

controversial!?

(anyway isn't the problem that you need a constant speed of rotation to generate a constant current? which i suppose can be fixed mechanically with springs and such)

(little known fact: new york subway cars use special mechanical brakes that generate power back into the grid! this is possible coz the grid for the subway is direct current.)

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 7 December 2003 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

small amounts generated means it's not worthwhile? If revolving doors why not hamster wheels?

MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 7 December 2003 11:38 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah those chubbycheeked little bastards HOW LONG MUST WE PUT UP WITH THEIR FREELOADING!

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I would genuinely like someone (Geeta?) to explain why perpetual motion devices can't be constructed with wheels and magnets. Surely the wheel can be set in motion and magnets attached to the wheel and set up next to the wheel, thanks to the forces of attraction and repulsion, maintain the momentum. The electricity produced by the turbine is passed through a coil that keeps the magnets magnetised. It all makes so much sense.

Markelby (Mark C), Sunday, 7 December 2003 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

(little known fact: new york subway cars use special mechanical brakes that generate power back into the grid! this is possible coz the grid for the subway is direct current.)

Special electrical brakes, you mean - basically, when the train wants to slow down its motors switch to being generators. If the current is sent back into the supply it's called regenerative braking; if it's absorbed by resistor banks on the train it's called rheostatic braking.

This was used in the UK, on the DC-electrified line from Manchester to Sheffield which closed in the 1970s. It was so effective that often the amount of power supplied into the system by braking trains exceeded that being used by accelerating trains.

Since the 1990s, it's been possible to build AC-powered trains which use regenerative braking, using hefty electronics and variable-frequency three-phase motors.

caitlin (caitlin), Sunday, 7 December 2003 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Hybrid electric buses do the same thing, except the regenerative braking puts electricity back into the batteries.

David Beckh0u5e (Dave Beckh0u5e), Sunday, 7 December 2003 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)

caitllin and Ed need to go bowling together, stat!!

(i almost typed "blowing together," soz suzy)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 7 December 2003 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

my brother has a grand idea about putting giant hamster wheels in prisons instead of treadmills. the power they produce could generate electricity for the prison and the surrounding areas. ha! but would this be deemed "cruel and unusual punishment"?

Emilymv (Emilymv), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I think some people here may be rather overestimating the amount of electricity that a revolving door or hamster wheel (even a large one) might generate.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

ilx is not the best advert for recreational drug use these days, is it?

fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

These days?

Kim (Kim), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

small amounts generated means it's not worthwhile?

Well, if it's pretty small, the power involved in creating, producing, installing, running and maintaining such devices may outweigh the power generated by them.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

um, but what about hundreds or thousands of giant hamster wheels???

Emilymv (Emilymv), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Modest Proposal. Baby eating. And they said he was crazy...

El Spinktor (El Spinktor), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

um, but what about hundreds or thousands of giant hamster wheels???

Probably would generate more electricity.

Aja (aja), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Where would you get the giant hamsters?

Prude (Prude), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Baby eating.

El Spinktor (El Spinktor), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I would genuinely like someone (Geeta?) to explain why perpetual motion devices can't be constructed with wheels and magnets. Surely the wheel can be set in motion and magnets attached to the wheel and set up next to the wheel, thanks to the forces of attraction and repulsion, maintain the momentum. The electricity produced by the turbine is passed through a coil that keeps the magnets magnetised. It all makes so much sense.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't allow it. The Kelvin-Planck version of the law is "It is impossible to construct a device that will operate in a cycle and produce no effect other than the raising of a weight and the exchange of heat."
Basically thats saying is there is no way to take a given amount of heat from a high[er] temperature body and convert it into an equal amount of work.
Factors that often make a process irreversible are friction, unrestrained expansion, heat transfer through a finite temperature difference, dispersion, hysteresis and i^2R loss in electrical currents.

Homer: Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 8 December 2003 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, my most favourite Simpsons quote evah =)

Trayce (trayce), Monday, 8 December 2003 00:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, understood. How about we constructed a massive, Megawatt generating device and had a man giving it an occasional shove?

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

um, but what about hundreds or thousands of giant hamster wheels???

Same problem. Think of all the energy (stored in food) expended in the feeding the hamsters...wait a minute. Are these really large wheels for hamsters, or wheels for giant mutant hamsters?

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 8 December 2003 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

How about naked mole rats?

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 8 December 2003 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)


Hybrid electric buses do the same thing, except the regenerative braking puts electricity back into the batteries.

I think the Honda Insight (?) does that too.

I don't know about naked mole rats.

Hunter (Hunter), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

THAT'S WHAT THEY ALL SAY.

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:02 (twenty-one years ago)

< pedantic>Isn't it kind of misleading to say that there can't be perpetual motion because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says there can't be? Couldn't we just change the law to allow perpetual motion?

NA (Nick A.), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

haha yeah, that's brilliant.

Kim (Kim), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

The second law of thermodynamics has a mathematical truth to it which came first. I was hoping someone wouldn't ask why the law says that.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh don't worry, I don't really care.

NA (Nick A.), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it would meet with a lot of opposition in the Upper House.

pete s, Monday, 8 December 2003 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

The other way of stating the second law is "It is impossible to construct a device that operates in a cycle and produces no effect other than the transfer of heat from a cooler body to a hotter one."

Both ways of stating that are negative statements which are impossible to fully prove. Now looking back at notes, Im mistaken, the second law is experimental, not mathematical. oops.

Give me a few seconds.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't it kind of misleading to say that there can't be perpetual motion because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says there can't be?

No, I'd say its a lazy answer but not misleading.

Couldn't we just change the law to allow perpetual motion?

We could infact change the laws of thermodynamics but then they would be considered wrong.
The question is why can't we construct a machine that makes more energy then it uses. The basic answer would be to point at the laws of thermodynamics and say because they say so. Slightly more complex would be to describe why the system can't work using a diagram with Qh and Ql and W everywhere. More fun would be to use the law of increase in entropy and tie that back into the question. But I don't have the time or the will power to write a book chapter.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:36 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/grimstitch/cartoonkim.jpg

Down by Kim's leg is Rufus the naked mole rat who lives in Ron Stoppable's pants.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:45 (twenty-one years ago)

also, see here: Christian Right Lobbies to Overturn Second Law of Thermodynamics
"What do these scientists want us teaching our children? That the universe will continue to expand until it reaches eventual heat death?" asked Christian Coalition president Ralph Reed, speaking at a rally protesting a recent Kansas Board Of Education decision upholding the law. "That's hardly an optimistic view of a world the Lord created for mankind. The American people are sending a strong message here: We don't like the implications of this law, and we will not rest until it has been reversed in the courts."

Kingfish Beestick (Kingfish), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:46 (twenty-one years ago)

If a whole robot society can be maintained by tapping into the power of the electrical brain currents in humans in The Matrix - even after you factor in all the running costs - then I'm sure that Dante-Cubed's idea will work too.

colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The only reliable way of building a perpetual motion machine would be using a football and a wet (but not too wet) football pitch. It's a well known fact, cited by every commentator, that a ball picks up pace off a wet pitch, clearly without any input of energy. It would therefore be quite easy to build a perpetual motion machine from these components. We could also use some of those strikers and basketball players who have developed the ability to hang in the air, if they aren't too busy developing an antigravity device.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 8 December 2003 13:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Apparently if you leave a hamster wheel outside wild rodents will actually get in and use it.

Archel (Archel), Monday, 8 December 2003 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Hang on. If the only problem is that we can't create energy, what's wrong with using an energy *we don't currently use* (i.e. magnetic field) to create energy we do (i.e. electricty)?

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)


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