Making positive generalisations about people in other cultures/races

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"We went on holiday to India and found the people so friendly"

"Parisian women are so well dressed"

"B&Q find that old people make very trustworthy workers"

Are all these things OK to say if making any negative generalisations about the same groups is frowned upon (except with the French I guess - everyone is rude about the French, yes yes I know there is a serious point about racism only being meaningful if it's directed at a culturally disadvantaged group. ok just forget the Parisian women example)?

Isn't it a bit of a nonsense to give any creedence to positive generalisations if negative ones are automatically dismissed?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Not all chinks are good at math (looks in mirror)

― ModJ (ModJ), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Doncha just love empty platitudes?

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"Parisian women are so well dressed"
Ridiculous of course. It's less harmless than saying negative things. My mother (and father) do this a lot when talking about Japanese culture. *sigh* Only recently they have vented about certain Japanese people. I was... pleasantly shocked.

― nathalie (nathalie), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

you're a credit to your race!

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Where's that "soft bigotry of adulation" thread?

― ModJ (ModJ), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, that sounds good.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

My mother (and father) do this a lot when talking about Japanese culture.

Nathalie, your father is Momus?

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"Japanese women are so sweet and well-mannered" etc.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

But what if, in the western definition of "polite and well-mannered", it is a trait displayed by far more women in Japan than the west? These generalisations may be stereotypes but stereotypes usually form for a reason.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"The soft bigotry of loose adulation" comes to Iraq.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"Gay men have such fabulous taste."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, we are specicially talking about generalisations here, not facts or rules. So can they be both bigoted and correct?

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.louisck.com/sounds/racism.mp3

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

How are we meant to take URALLGAY in the context of this thread?

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

generalizations like that are always a problem, they are always not true; its reliant upon a conception of people, nations, geographic regions as being unified in ways which they aren't

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha between this thread and the Rosa Parks comment, Mark, you aren't doing well for yourself today! I have yet to meet a Japanese woman who was any sweeter or well-mannered than anyone else I know. I know a Chinese girl who cries a lot, that's as good as I can get ya.

Gay men DO have fabulous taste though, haven't you seen Queer Eye? Etc. Also Jews are really good with money.

BLACK PEOPLE SURE EAT A LOT OF CHICKEN.

(The reason why these comments are bad is because they're faux-positivisms masquerading other instincts and it helps no one)

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

How are we meant to take URALLGAY in the context of this thread?

Up the ass?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

how is eating a lot of chicken a faux-positivism? maybe cuz red meat is supposed to be bad for you? but then, isn't that just another faux-positivism?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

BLACK PEOPLE SURE EAT A LOT OF CHICKEN.

This reminds me that I haven't eaten lunch.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

or maybe if you're a chicken farmer that's a positivism

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

My possibly waverable view is that Barry is right and personality-based stereotypes (negative and positive) usually have some grounding in reality, but that these have a cultural, not genetic basis and that repeating negative ones about culturally disadvantaged groups is not something people should do. I'm not sure what I think about repeating positive ones about these groups (the 'hey, black people have natural rhythm' horror looms large).

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

how is eating a lot of chicken a faux-positivism?

Okay then, MANDINGO TO THREAD if you want to get ugly about it!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Have you been to Japan much?

Anyway, I'm not trying to prove a point here, just give the thread more to discuss. Do you really think I'm a racist?

(I don't think anyone on ILE can find urallgay offensive. It's directed (in its "humorous" if overflogged guise as a postmodern insult) at any spammers in tha house. okay?)

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe you're a racist chicken farmer, and you're all like "I hates black people!" and then some college kid with ripped jeans and long hair comes up to you says, "but black people eat a lot of chicken!"
then the racist farmer is all like "I loves black people!"

is it also a faux positivist generalisation that I think all racist people talking a charming Yosemite Sam patois?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha, I can't conjugate!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Noble savage = bad stereotype

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Solved: Why White Ppl are Assholes

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus Mark, NO ONE THINKS YOU'RE A RACIST (EXCEPT MAYBE ETHAN BUT HE THINKS EVERYONE IS A RACIST SO THAT DOESN'T REALLY COUNT).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I was asking Ally, Dan.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

the noble savage is not only a generalization it is a rewriting of the native american figure (to name only one figure) to reflect and embody the White European's own discontents and desires

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't want to go the Mandingo route...Fried chicken eating is neither negative or positive but a generalization and was brought up in the context of generalizations that exist "for a reason".

It's becoming harder to justify that point of view because what might have existed years ago to cause a generalization "for a reason" isn't likely to be the same now, for many reasons including cross-cultural redivision/redistribution and race mixing and just the evolution of time for god's sake.

xpost Mark you are really kind of suckingly serious lately aren't you. DID THE 'HAHA' STARTING THE FUCKING POST NOT GIVE IT AWAY? PERHAPS I SHOULD POST IT TWENTY TIMES A LA NU-ILX SO YOU CAN SEE IT IS A JOKE. Shall I link to the Asian women/white men thread for examples of Asians taking offense to the stereotype?

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Fried chicken eating is neither negative or positive but a generalization and was brought up in the context of
generalizations that exist "for a reason".

I know, I just saw the opportunity for some of that great H.Mann Humour that's sooo in demand these days.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

It's better than emo bullshit, that's for sure.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, i mean that the image is in many respects a construction. images like that can be constructed by the community or by outsiders. but they are gross oversimplifications that when seen as largely true make life miserable for individuals who don't fit into it, because no matter how 'true' it may be in general, there is always an enormous amount of similarly true facts that must be denied in order to make it true.... but what would the benefits of positive generalizations be, then?

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Because people like making points about other cultures.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

You don't get it, do you, Ally? Sorry to be "serious" like it's a fucking crime but maybe just ONCE you can reply seriously too without buffering everything but everything you say with varying levels of sarcasm and hostility.

Email me off board if you want to talk about it any further, I'm sick of it on here.

(x-post - this is emo bullshit too. Or maybe it's just sincerity.)

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

because it makes the world, which is large and contradictory and confusing, a little bit easier to understand (although that understanding is necessarily fallacious)

xpost

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the alternative? Denying the existence of different cultures at all and insisting that humanity is just a collection of 6 billion individuals?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Barry should totally be the touchy, loveable asshole in Whit Stillman's next film.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

no not at all, just learning the difference between statistics and people

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

on the coffeetable of a genuine real RACIST i saw a copy of a book about race relations in america (he's a big supporter of bell curve science etc), and the back of the book asked (and i'm paraphrasing) "why are we so afraid to admit that america's best football players are black?" etc

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark, Dan made fun of you for the exact same post and you didn't bother to get pissed off at him. Fuck you, please go back to posting on "This is the thread where I..." until you calm down a little recently, jesus fucking christ.

Horace, I agree with you and I"m not saying there is an alternative but what people contradicting this are saying is basically what you just said, this understanding is pretty much totally fallacious and becoming a lot more so in this crazy information age.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan doesn't rip me apart in every thread, Ally. Fuck you.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

no not at all, just learning the difference between statistics and people

You assume that people don't realise that already.

Inserting 'statistically (of course there many exceptions)' into every sentence gets a bit tedious.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan doesn't rip me apart in every thread, Ally.

I don't? Damn, I'm slipping.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think we are (re: football). Most are also men. Physical differences are less slippery then ones of behavior.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan, just crack like three jokes about the taking-to-long-to-come thread and you'd be ABOVE me in the ripping him apart sweepstakes.

N., it seems to me that your argument against all of this seems to be assuming that it is a fallacy that these "positive generalizations" aren't used to propegate some negative stereotypes cf. the Asian women as submissives thing.

xpost bnw a lot of people get huffy about the black people = better athletes thing! Physical differences are definitely not less slippery among races, I think--men v. women is a different story.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Ally, where they are used to propagate such things I am against them. I don't think they always (or even usually) are, though.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

You assume that people don't realise that already.

well, some people don't.

the problem when approaching individuals with these generalizations in mind is that they then have the burden of representing something else, a culture, a race, a gender, whathaveyou. some people choose identities as politics, others would rather not have to deal with the associations at all, but they can feel inescapable at times.

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 119 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

They aren't generally - but B&Q (a major hardware superstore) made a big point that they wanted them, and employed loads.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think "old age" is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I mean you have to respect anybody who has outlived something or other, because, at least for most of us, life is hard. It'll kill ya. The guy that said that didn't get to be an old guy. So the mere fact of existence endured for a longer period of time than absolutely necessary to propagate the species or whatev, is deserving of some sort of prize beyond prune pudding and a spongebath.

x-post

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

That's odd. I don't trust old people at all, they're all crazy.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i do not respect my landlady and she is like 80 and lived through the occupation.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

B&Q got media props by combatting ageism with positive generalisation.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Working in an old seafaring town, as I do, OLD PEOPLE ROCK!! They can keep me entertained & informed for hours w/their stories of baltic convoys, korean war etc etc etc.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I keep reading B&Q as BBQ and am horrified every time I read it by the idea that N. is endorsing cooking the old to be honest.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't like to generalise about cooking the old.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that would taste like beef jerky.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Which beef jerky. Every beef jerky is different.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

James Thurber had a fine generalization collection, memorialized in his essay "What a Lovely Generalization!" He talked about when and where he found some of them and why he particularly cherished some of them, such as "Generals are always afraid of their daughters" and "Peach ice cream is never as good as you think it's going to be." May I have "Asians are good bowlers" for my collection, Spencer? Then whenever I use it I can tell the story of this thread.

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

texturely, I meant. Cuz old people are already cured. Flavour would depend on how you seasoned 'em and where they lived.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

http://static.onino.co.uk/pix/400/39/39098.jpg

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

meanwhile, I've been thinking for a while that there should be an EU enforced National Stereotype Day where all Europeans must conform to their national stereotype. I think this would be a great way of improving mutual tolerance through appreciation of difference.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

hurdy gurdy

― svenm (blueski), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

"Peach ice cream is never as good as you think it's going to be." is otm.

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Mary got some really good peach ice cream at the ice cream place in Dumbo that was much better than expected.

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the place on the esplanade by the brooklyn bridge? their ice cream is good.

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah! What is that place? Brooklyn creamery or something?

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

This is sounding like a rejected Seinfeld script.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

it's called the brooklyn ice cream factory.

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(terrible name, i know)

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"New Yorkers always talk about stuff."

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks, jody.

"Brooklynites make good ice cream."

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Would never pass, as politicians would be too scared to appear hypocritical.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

i act out my ethnic stereotypes every day (i.e., stupid and condescending). i don't need a special day for that!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never won a war, so I suppose I do as well.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I am a red-hot lover and I ride a scooter. I once killed a man who looked at my sister.

(one of the above is untrue)

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Note to the curious: I've seen Barry riding his little scooter.

Either of the other two could be the lie.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I looked at his sister.

― Julio the friendly ghost (jdesouza), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahaha

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

two months pass...

I've seen Barry ride his little scooter.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 29 February 2004 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

*stares at post made by self on December 9, 2003*

*continues to stare*

*blinks*

*blinks some more*

*hides under computer desk*

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Sunday, 29 February 2004 03:59 (twenty-two years ago)

six years pass...

Hello, I'm Ian Astbury.

― Ian Astbury

― buzza, Monday, 27 December 2010 07:51 (fifteen years ago)

It is hard to make an accurate generalization, even when speaking of generalizations. Therefore I will eschew making a conclusive declaration of classickness or dudhood.

I would rather make the observation that humans will never stop making generalizations; it is how our brains are built. It requires intensive training in self-awareness to stop oneself from making them, and even that level of intention is not good enough to halt the process entirely. Some will slip through regardless. A strict vow of silence is perhaps the only remedy.

― Aimless, Monday, 27 December 2010 16:08 (fifteen years ago)

generalisations are handy enough

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:13 (fifteen years ago)

i hate this but i especially hate people making positive generalisations about their own race.

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:32 (fifteen years ago)

"the irish are great craic, when you meet a german it's grand, but they're not, you know, FUN"

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:33 (fifteen years ago)

at the same time different places have diff. cultural atmospheres and social mores so, but yeah in gen the things ppl say when they say these things sound p. bullshitty.

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:35 (fifteen years ago)

xp yeah! when my flight got delayed it was all irish and a couple scottish ppl and everyone was v smug abt how great each other was and v glad they didnt get stuck w a pile of english dryarses

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:36 (fifteen years ago)

usually the people who go for that kind of thing in a big way have never lived outside of ireland anyway

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:39 (fifteen years ago)

nah one guy was living in toronto for two years, moving home. the things he liked abt toronto were the things that made it similar to ireland.

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:43 (fifteen years ago)

eg. meeting other irish ppl.

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:43 (fifteen years ago)

ah but cmon lads the english are a bunch of auld dryarses, cept for maybe the second generation irish ones

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:46 (fifteen years ago)

i should point out that despite this annoying me, since moving to london a huge percentage of my friends are irish. i guess just because you know one or two people from home then suddenly you know all these others. i meet lots of english/scots/welsh via work and i know people from around europe but the ex pat thing is quite hard to avoid in a way, esp if it's good people.

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:47 (fifteen years ago)

is having a wet arse favourable in ireland

― cozen, Monday, 27 December 2010 16:47 (fifteen years ago)

now ur makin me think.

i dunno that a wetarse is specifically favoured, but certainly havin a dry chaffed posterior is one of the great sins over here

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:49 (fifteen years ago)

nothin worse

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:53 (fifteen years ago)

presumably because it means you've not been toiling out in the rain, but instead have been living a soft life indoors, on the backs of a conquered race

― kanellos (gbx), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:53 (fifteen years ago)

could be could be

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:56 (fifteen years ago)

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Making positive generalisations about people in other cultures/races - classic or dud?