cross-cultural eubonics

hey Kerry! nice to see you around these parts!

I think the asian gangsta ("chigger", ugh) phenomenon was one of my favorite parts of the Californian cultural spectrum. I was also a big fan of the Cholos, but it doesn't appear that much of their subcultural customs have leaked out.

The military is packed to gills with people from all sorts of backgrounds who all talk like rappers to each other, it was good times.

"The genesis of Ebonics lies in the distinctive cultural background and relative isolation of African Americans, which originated in the slaveholding South. Many African slaves, in acquiring English, developed a pidgin language--a simplified fusion of English and African languages--from which Ebonics evolved....A pidgin language emerges to facilitate communication between speakers who do not share a language; it becomes a creole language when it takes root and becomes the primary tongue among its users."

I don't think there is anything astonishing or particularly controversial about this position.

Also, does "hella" have its origins in Black English? I always thought it was just lazy California stoner talk.

also "yo" i think is pretty cross-cultural and widespread.

and people saying "word" is just FUNNY.

"Well, I went down to the Shady Maple with Chas for a forward looking discussion.... Regarding some changes in the relational database software... so, to, y'know, optimize it for our new journalling filesystem... but he sez... get this... he's under an NDA and can't discuss any part of the journalling filesystem with me. Doesn't that just burn your shorts? I mean, dooood!...we went to the same business prep school, ferpetessake! You'd think that would count for something!"

no, there isn't, except that the evidence isn't there to make it a plausible explanation in the case of black english. there just aren't that many features of black english that can't be traced to various old world english dialects, just like standard american english. they're not the same ones that standard english ended up with, but they still come from the same pool of dialects. are there some features of black english that can be traced back to african languages? sure. but then standard english has features of non-english languages too... that doesn't make it a creole either.

mind you, there's no politics behind this. it's just linguistics. for a variety of reasons, english speakers tend to magnify dialectal differences that in the greater scheme of the world's languages aren't particularly noteworthy. standard american english and black english just aren't that distinct in terms of dialects. there are far better examples of true creoles in the US... gullah for example, or michif.

-fh

Whenever you find yourself saying, "mind you, there's no politics behind this. it's just linguistics" I would give the matter a closer look and a second thought. Just as there is potency in whether maps show the Northern or Southern hemisphere ascendant, whether one speaks a language of one's own or a dialect of a more powerful group is a potent political question.

While I am certain there is no malice behind your conclusion, nor racism in any malicious sense, this question cannot be divorced from politics, try as you might. Good faith, while it is the best one can do in such cases, is not sufficient to remove politics from the matter. It shall cling to any conclusion you draw, regardless.

Sure it can. Black English is most accurately classified as a non-creole dialect. Believe me, I am well aware of the difficulty of neatly classifying languages, but Black English isn't really a borderline case. Have creoles influenced it? Sure. Did it once have more features taken from creole languages? Yep. Is it a creole? No, it isn't.

-fh

also, this thread needs 'sucka' to do his Sir Chauncey Q Umblestoat III impression.

(somehow i think doubt custos grasps the mockery element of either of these, as evidenced by his segregationist, geir-like amusement at whenever he thinks hes caught black ppl going against 'their nature' in the same way ppl like calenders with kittens dressed in tuxedoes or driving miniature porsches ie aww it thinks it's human!!)
The poster of this comment is suffering from delusions of telepathy again.
Also, You are assuming that you can categorize my mentality by assuming that my mind is as narrow and as your own.
Also, You must realize that this "black ppl going against their nature" nonsense is a fiction within YOUR brain. Not mine.
Got it?
When you're done pretending to be God, and you step down off your lofty pedestal, we'll discuss this like gentlemen.

*sigh*
also, this thread needs 'sucka' to do his Sir Chauncey Q Umblestoat III impression.

It appears that's settled then... as the builders said shortly after completing the tower of Pisa.

this is sorta the lord shtick but without the heavy accent and instead done in generic-accent newscaster voice. (aka middle-class l.a. which is the normative national tone).

Let's not get confused here. Black English today is not a creole. Was it in the past? Maybe. I don't think so, but I'm not an expert on the subject and it's certainly somthing linguists disagree about. I'm a big fan of John McWhorter, who is a student of John Rickford, so I'm actually kinda curious to explore the creolist position regarding the origins of Black English. But saying it's a creole now is where I'd say "no, that's just wrong."

whether one speaks a language of one's own or a dialect of a more powerful group is a potent political question.

Yeah, but since the distinction is linguistically meaningless, it's not a good basis for making a political stand. The real truth about dialects is that everybody has one, and one isn't really any better than another in any qualitative way. The dialect spoken by the most favored social group is usually going to become the model for the prestige dialect in that society. Not because of any particular quality it has, mind you, but merely because of who is speaking it.

A speaker of Black English insisting it is a separate language in itself and a speaker of Standard English insisting their own dialect is the correct one and all others are wrong or inferior are two sides of the same coin because neither position has any factual basis. My position here is that people ought to learn a bit about how language actually works before they use it as a springboard for politics.

this unfunny gene weingarten column today reminded me of lord custos

Laurel, Md.: Hypothetical humor question:

Suppose one had never heard them as children. How funny would "That was no lady, that was my wife" or "A fireman wears red suspenders to hold his pants up" be if we heard them for the first time as adults?

Gene Weingarten: "That was no lady, that was my wife," never was funny. I can categorically state this. It cannot be deconstructed as humor.

.....

OMG!
The Great Necrommunicator!

-- Lord Custos Omicron (l.custo...), June 12th, 2004.