When is antagonism the correct means towards social change?

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Or is antagonism only a problem when it is an end?

(I don't know how much the actual social or political goal should enter into it. Certainly, good causes have been fought for badly, and vice versa.)

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

UP YER ASS

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

;-)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

(just having fun. this is an interesting topic, so please don't let my above silliness derail it, even if i'm too busy to give an involved answer right now.)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

:-)

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:18 (twenty-one years ago)

While you may mean well, Aaron, you do not mean clearly, if you know what I mean. One especially unclear concept here is 'antagonism'. Another is 'social change'. A third is 'correct'.

I tell you what. Maybe if you were to reform the question, using specific examples of what you had in mind exactly, we might be better able to respond in a more useful way.

― Aimless, Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:33 (twenty-one years ago)

ok sorry. was being vague to allow for more opportunity for others to stipulate their own definitions.

let me get back to you on this.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

It may just be me. I do not respond well to vagueness, perhaps because if I do not know what I am talking about I end up sounding like someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

― Aimless, Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:42 (twenty-one years ago)

ok. well. i probably sound like i dont know what i am talking about too ;-)

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Great social change can be affected by magnetising rather than antagonising.

II resort to antagonism if life, limb or happiness is under threat. That's a rare scenario where I come from.

People rush to quickly to antagonism. Look at how many silly arguments there are, everywhere, over almost nothing at all. I say, magnetise first, destroy last.

I notice that people who are slow to take offense and quick to admit fault, with good humour, rapidly acquire power and influence over others.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 05:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh yeah, and f*** you all.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 05:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Hang on, this is ILM isn't it? We need to tie this in with music somehow. Momus! A pervy lyric if you please.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 05:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Have I made a big enough fool of myself yet? Or should I continue?

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 05:56 (twenty-one years ago)

do, this is fun!
(don't look. you are being *magnatized*)

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 05:59 (twenty-one years ago)

But in music isn't it the "antagonistic" that is generally taken to be new, inventive, the voice of the youth/marginalized/outsider/genius/etc?

― Poppy (poppy), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 07:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh haha, this is on ILE after all. Well to tie it all together, the Sex Pistols were musically and socially antagonistic, at the time at least. How much social change did they bring about as a result? Probably more than Barry Manilow. At least a little bit more anyway.

― Poppy (poppy), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 07:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, but while the antagonised, they also magentised - with each other, with those creepy situationists they threw their lot in with, and with young England.

Interesting thing about Malcolm McLaren - you hardly ever hear him slag anyone off. He just uses them and praises them.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 07:45 (twenty-one years ago)

They magentised, Orbit: magenta, the colour. Take the piss out of Colin the idiot. Your time starts... NOW.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 07:48 (twenty-one years ago)

bbbut i like the music mole..
*sniffle*

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought I'd magentise the bathroom, and then maybe a nice puce for the kitchen.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:02 (twenty-one years ago)

The Pistols were maybe a bad example on my part (chosen mostly cause I watched The Filth and the Fury yesterday), they did inspire a few bands tho? McLaren didn't bring about social change so much as he appeared to be in favour of that change as a way to profit himself.

― Poppy (poppy), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:16 (twenty-one years ago)

"Bringing things down from the inside" never seems to work, anyway.

Peasoup green, man, that's the way to go!

― Poppy (poppy), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:18 (twenty-one years ago)

2 things
1. the message sent
2. what different recipients do with it

some will be activist, some will be capitalist, some will use it to get laid, some will use it as a signifier of hip cred. it's all abt the audiences, plural.

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know, I thought The Sex Pistols was a pretty good example. You peeps don't think McLaren was up for some social change (along with some dosh)? I ask because he seems to get real pleasure from stirring people up, creating some chaos, just for the fun of seeing what happens. He seems to have this sourcerer's apprentice quality, and even laughs like a naughty child.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

peeps? peeps????!!!!

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh dear.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 08:49 (twenty-one years ago)

my glove.
i dropped my glove...

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

three months pass...

Orbit, I found it! It was in my pants.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 02:03 (twenty-one years ago)

drink more.

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 02:31 (twenty-one years ago)

and mr. music mole, the glove comment was an obscure reference to a frame sequence in Frank Miller's Daredevil comics, forgot the issue number.

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 02:32 (twenty-one years ago)

all replies to obscure references should contain the phrase "it was in my pants"

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 02:34 (twenty-one years ago)

brilliant though, separate frames, in the midst of heated battle, said by a villian.

...oh dear

...my glove...

..i dropped it.

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 02:36 (twenty-one years ago)

thirteen years pass...

Thought this had been sorted but apparently twasnt

― D'mnuchin returns (darraghmac), Wednesday, 31 May 2017 00:49 (eight years ago)

Every agonist attracts their appropriate antagonist.

― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 31 May 2017 03:35 (eight years ago)

sometimes I think the act of bludgeoning members of the TaxPayers' Alliance to death with a lump hammer might not have any discernible effect on austerity, but it might actually feel good.

― calzino, Wednesday, 31 May 2017 07:40 (eight years ago)

we shd show much more patience, tolerance and loving kindness to people who hate those things

― The Remoans of the May (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 31 May 2017 07:43 (eight years ago)

Prime the pump

― D'mnuchin returns (darraghmac), Wednesday, 31 May 2017 08:30 (eight years ago)

Grime the pumped-ups!

― calzino, Wednesday, 31 May 2017 08:37 (eight years ago)

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