Taking sides: Superman vs. Batman

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Batman--he's the 007 of superheroes. Clothes, car, gadgets...the man even has his own butler.

Superman--changes clothes in a phone booth--a real blue-collar superhero...could probably could kick Batman's ass any day of the week

So, who do you like?

turner, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman is the triumph of technology over talent and has some very darj freudian subtext, an interesting commentary on class , looks coolers, has the better villans and his reworkings really are fascianting.

anthony, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Bonus points for a Marxist anylsis

turner, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman was a dork. He needed the batcomputer to think.

Mike Hanle y, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

or Freudian

turner, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

superman if you include the fourth world/ orion/darkseid stuff. batman's just tapped, i don't think there could really be another great batman story written. whereas superman seems infinitely fresher even in his almost seventy years. and mxy beats out bat-mite too.

ethan, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman was a total babe of a Real Man until that fucking ugly wimpy cunt Michael Keaton played him. Now he's kind of gross.

toraneko, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman thought he was bad
He was a fucking asshole in the first place
He got knocked to the floor
I wupped Batman's ass!
I wupped Batman's ass!
I wupped Batman's ass!
I wupped Batman's ass!
I wupped Batman's ass!

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Superman thought he was bad
He was messing with my girlfriend
I caught him in my room kissing her
I took a rubber hose and flogged his rump
I whipped Superman's ass!
I whipped Superman's ass!
I whipped Superman's ass!
I whipped Superman's ass!

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you're a LAWYER for christ's sake. have some shame.

ethan, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman obviously rules because his adam west incarnation usedc to say things like this:

'Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single service ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuously,through this window. We'll use our batropes. Our Job is finished'

Ed, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

MarxistLY, surely is SUPERMAN. All he owns is the labour of his own hands (Marx doesn't, i think, mention X-RAY VISION, but i'm sure he would have done) whereas vile Batman is at best an Artisan with a plethora of tools (and so a useful stepping stone to full revolution), at worst,,, well, he's got a bloody BUTLER hasn't he?

MJHibbett, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman any day. He's a fucking weirdo with loads of great gadgets and plenty of 'issues' = more interesting than a silly man who can't wear his pants properly.

DG, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Where does this come from?

They threw one cigarette overboard and made the boat a cigarette lighter!

Kodanshi, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But in answer to your original question... If you mean as an entity in and of itself, I'd say Batman - human who does amazing things to fight crime. But in terms of specific actors... SUPERMAN. Christopher Reeves = tr00 epitome of Superman. How he got on with his life after his accident, his strength, courage... For me he represents a true superman.

Kodanshi, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, Batman. Give me starlets and jewel thieves and debutantes over cub reporters and GREAT CAESAR'S GHOST! Plus, Bat's villians are better - Scarface, the Riddler, the Mad Hatter, the Penguin, THE JOKER. (I ignore Bane, obviously.) Superman had Lex Luthor and Jack Kirby's last gasps (which, outside of Darkseid, aren't all that great).

Both reached their pinnacle in _Dark Knight Returns_, of course.

David Raposa, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman was more fun, I watched the TV show because I had a crush on Robin.

Lesley Higgins, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Both reached their pinnacle in _Dark Knight Returns_, of course."

yes, and lest we forget, batman was on the verge of KICKING HIS ASS. as it should be.

jess, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman, hello. He has a devoted, useless sidekick (two if you count when Batgirl is around), Catwoman, and cooler nemesises.

Ally, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(Nerdy post alert)Batman over Superman, but both were DC comics and therefore washed up in my youth (pre-movie revival. Batman was kinda cool due to the 60's tv series in reruns - but it was too campy for kids looking for kicks (I liked it a lot more as I got older, especially episodes with Batgirl or Catwoman). In the mid-late 70's it was all about Marvel: Spiderman, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Thor, Conan, Kiss Komix. DC was a lot more preachy and goody-goody, while Marvel had an odour of sleaze, heavy metal, and violence.

fritz, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman could still kick Spiderman's ass though, I mean just look at Batman's threads versus Spiderman's. Still, Wolverine could take them all, at least the Hugh Jackman version in those clothes. The yellow suit though had to go.

Ally, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That's what I liked about Spiderman - he was a skinny kid, anybody could kick his ass but he was wily and quick and alert with Spidey- sense. Wolverine could kick everybody's ass. That's what I liked about him.

fritz, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But superman's cumshots could blast all the way thru the mooon!

Mike Hanle y, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Superman was spoken for, he had Loi s Lane!

Lesley Higgins, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Someone wrote an essay about the problems with Superman's sex life titled something like "Man Of Steel, Woman Of Kleenex". I wish I could remember who. I also remember as a child giggling with friends about how you should never make David/Bruce Banner (depending on medium) angry during sex.

Dan Perry, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I could only rational the changes puberty wrought on my penis by comparing it to the Incredible Hulk. When it got aroused it suddenly got bigger, harder and green.

I have since had the doctors in and I'm alright now.

Pete, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Man Of Steel, Woman Of Kleenex"

sf author, right? i wanna say ballard, but i know that's not right. damn, on the tip of my fingers...

jess, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Larry Niven! (It's collected in a volume called 'Superheroes' edited by Michel Parry, btw.)

Andrew L, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

we're all characters in mallrats.

ethan, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Listen up now, Spiderman might've had "Spidey Sense" whatever the fuck that is, but Wolverine would pulverise him because Wolverine had Wolverine Sense plus HUGE ENORMOUS SHIT THAT CAME FLYING OUT OF HIS KNUCKLES AND SLASHED THINGS INDISCRIMINANTLY.

Ally, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

nivens essay

anthony, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman = better character. Complexity. Superman is not very complex, as the name suggests.

Superman = more effective superhero, as scientifically proved by Superfriends -- at the beginning of every episode, Superman had to be incapacitated in some way in order for the Legion of Doom's plan to even get off the ground. The rest of the Superfriends would then spent 20 minutes rescuing Superman so he could go take care of the problem.

Nitsuh, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i used to always argue with kids in elementary school because they thought wolverine could beat everyone simply because he was cool and pissed off and stuff. people mentioned in this thread wolverine could not even come close to beating: batman, superman, spiderman, the incredible hulk. i had to explain to a kid once that superman can THROW AROUND FUCKING PLANETS and FLY AT NEAR LIGHT SPEED and make things EXPLODE BY LOOKING AT THEM. meanwhile wolverine can beat a bunch of ninjas because when they cut him with their ninja sword thing he heals fast.

ethan, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

surely i'm not the only person who finds superman more interesting than batman?

ethan, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman. Have you *seen* athe old comics? Dark and brooding from the get go. I remember (scary relevency alerty) some crossover comic from my youth where the two were giving a radio interview and Anthrax was set loose in the building. The interviewer analyzed their various views of human nature, etc. Batman was the cynic, ans Superman was about truth, justice, & the american way. Batman was the pentecostal, and superman the methodist.

Sterling Clover, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Batman. He's got issues. You could say Superman has, but he was blasted away from his planet at birth and I'm sure he can't remember much about the destruction of Krypton. But then Bruce Wayne is a millionaire...but he uses his money to fight crime.

james, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ally, I love you! WOLVERINE rules! Especially in those cartoon versions. His voice! And things he says - exactly like in Marvel Comics. Aahhh, fun & japes...

Kodanshi, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Of course Superman could beat Wolverine, unless Wolverine had some kryptonite. The thing to remember though is that Wolverine has his peeps, Superman does not. Superman is just Superman, he has no backup. Wolverine could definitely fuck up Spiderman though, I mean what the hell is Spiderman gonna do against 3ft long metal swords coming out of someone's hand? Think about it with his Spidey Sense? Fat fuckin' chance. Batman v. Wolverine would be a way fair battle, plus they're both pissed off so it'd be pretty cool, and if it was George Clooney v. Hugh Jackman it'd be fun to watch.

Superman sucks, dude. I mean, yeah, he's all about throwing around planets and leaping the Empire State Building in a single bound and shit, which is pretty damn good, plus he can fly. But he wears the ugliest clothing imaginable, even worse than Captain America. Plus, the whole kryptonite thing is a bit weak and bizarre. His nemesis sucks, too. But the main reason why Superman sucks is the whole Clark Kent thing. I mean, all he does is take off his damned glasses and everyone's completely confused as to who he is. I know that if I took off my glasses, everyone would be like, oh, Ally's not wearing glasses, not, oh, where did Ally go? So what the fuck is that bullshit? Couldn't they have come up with a more plausible thing? I mean, Batman wears a mask.

Batman wins cos of Catwoman, you know. We should really have a discussion, Catwoman v. Lois Lane, cos everyone knows Lois Lane is ass.

Ally, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You clearly have no appreciation for Spidey Sense.

fritz, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My cat is named Spidey. He ain't got no sense. Ergo, Spidey Sense does not exist.

I mean, honestly, Spiderman is basically the sort of superhero designed for indie peeps. And I can't abide by indie peep superheroes. I mean, he's all weak and shit, he's just clever so he can outsmart people. Plus that whole climbing walls thing. Regardless, Batman is also extremely clever and would easily crush Spiderman with just a negative glance in his direction. Batman is Jay-Z to Spiderman's Jurassic 5, yo. Clever is great, and I do like Spiderman well enough (his outfit would be better if it wasn't the same color as Superman's though), but clever ain't got nothing on, say, Hulk Strength. I mean, that's what you gotta watch out for, crazy insane Hulk Strength type things. The villians are all supersmart too, but they always lose in the end cos they just ain't got that extra superduper strength/cool car/sidekicks.

I still stand by my statement that the reason why Batman whoops everyone's booty is because he has the cooler periphial people. I mean, the much mentioned by me Catwoman is easily way cooler than any other comic book chick, even proper comic superheroines like Wonder Woman (though hot pants are pretty cool to fight evil in) or Sailor Moon*. Robin is great cos he just sits around and does jack shit but follow around Batman all day, like Batman needs some little weak kid following him everywhere. And he's got a butler! I mean, that's fantastic. And the villians all kick it, at least the main ones like the Penguin and the Joker and the Riddler and so on. I'm not so sure about Poison Ivy, I mean she's got the hair but honestly, what is her deal? Other than that, his villians are fantastic and there are so many of them, it's like a corporation of villains.

Plus Gotham City is the most kickass place ever created. I mean, they're always in the dark, everyone is ludicrious stupid rich (except the poor people), and the entire justice system seems to be based on, "Well, um, we can call Batman I guess". And they're always so surprised when bad shit goes down, like that never happens in Gotham City.

Also, the movies are the best out of all of the comic book movies, at least the Tim Burton ones. I mean, X-Men is pretty good, except for when that guy melts, that's sick. But it's not Batman. And don't get me started on how much I hate those Superman movies, that music!

* The Dirty Pair got some kicking threads though, I need their outfits, they got better overall fashion sense than Catwoman. I'd still take Catwoman's outfit though.

Ally, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh yeah...the Dirty Pair...:)

The thing that annoys me about the Batman movies, was that Billy Dee Williams character 'Harvet Dent' should have become Two-Face in Batman Forever. I hate it when movies don't pay enough respect to the original comic book.

james, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Whaaaat? No no no no no, Wolverine would get his ass kicked by Spiderman in a second. They're almost evenly matched, both have super strengh, speed, agility etc. but imagine they're fighting, and Wolvie tries to chop up Spidey - uh uh, Spidey has that Spider-Sense shit and jumps out of the way. Eventually, it's going to come down to one thing: longer-range weapons. All Spidey has to do is shoot that webjizz into Wolverine's eyes and he's fucked. Then Spidey can climb all up and down Wolverine's fat cigar-chomping Canadian ass. Bub.

Dave M., Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Aye right, indie boy.

Ally, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Wolverine could whup Spidey senseless, assuming the giant metal claws could cut through the web-jizz.

Spidey is indie, I suppose. Skinny, science-nerdy, wracked with self- doubt, super power of "sense" = sensitive guy (Anthony Michael Hall). Clearly then, Superman is a Jock (Emilio Estevez) and Batman is a Goth (Ally Sheedy?).

fritz, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

BATMAN IS JUDD NELSON!

We have come full circle on ILE.

Ally, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Arright, for all y'all who read Wizard magazine, you know this has already been settled. the real issue here is what makes a super hero great. The premise is that a super hero has talents that he/she selflessly lends to the world in an effort to protect mankind. Superman is basically an alien who has accute powers, but he just wants to be a normal person, thus the disguise. You see, he is really Superman, and Clark Kent is the disguise. He feels obligated to help, since he can, but to protect the alter ego he wishes to become, he dresses up in spandex to throw people off. The same is true for Bruce Wayne. After the trauma of his parents death, he was unable to salvage a normal life and thus dedicated his existence to revenge. He protects Gotham because he doesn't want anyone else to go through what he went through, but the real reason he puts his inheritance towards bat gear and cool shit, is to avenge his parents' deaths, which is a fundamentally selfish reason to be a super hero. In the end, he is not even super. He is a man with an incredible wealth of resources that he controls towards his own ends. Spiderman is the average joe, put in an extraordinary position through chance. He is the ultimate superhero because he is the only person who is primarily an average citizen who protects the people as a conscious choice. he does not feel obligated, he is not out for revenge, and he posseses genuinely extraordinary powers that are not purchased, nor are they inherent. He is not an alien and he is not rich. he is just your average joe, doing what he can for society. I realize this is a very all-american approach to what it means to be a super hero, but given a certain ideology, it makes sense.

Timothy, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And here of course is where the indie-kids fall by the wayside in abject horror -- Freedom is the recognition of necessity. Thus Batman is the truly free. Further, his "powers" were gained through intent and endeavour, through determination rather than freak accident. Identifying with spiderman = you are a vegetarian. Identifying with Batman = you work at an animal shelter.

Sterling Clover, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's a tres cool comic book/graphic novella called "The Dark Knight Returns" which plays out an older Batman going head to head with the Man of Steel.

Meanwhile, back in the ILE world of popular culture, curvaceous and sultry Julie Newmar destroys rail thin, chain smoking, whiney Lois Lane.

bnw, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

explaing what dark knight returns is to ile = that news report on the bert/bin laden that explained what 'sesame street' was.

ethan, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

& eartha kitt destroys julie newmar. rowrrr.

fritz, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What, nobody is going to stick up for the Watchmen here? Or the Flaming Carrot?

Ned Raggett, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

*Absolute* freedom = recognition of necessity for a butler and a "ward"

mark s, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

To twist the thread 'round a bit, which superhero's powers make the coolest noise? Spidey goes 'fwipp' Wolvie goes 'snikt'...WTF is up with the DC characters having no supersounds??

turner, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Lois Lane chain smokes? I'm going to have to rethink my opinion on that bitch.

Freedom = HAVING a butler, yes. I mean, come on. He probably even puts Batman's pants on for him.

Ally, Saturday, 13 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

In my book though, Judge Dredd beats both of them.

DG, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ethan is right. Superman is better.

Tom, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought I was judd nelson?

Mike Hanle y, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Only goody-goodies like Superman. How can you have any credibility if you like a superhero who's such a goofy good guy? He's such a square! He wasn't even a little bit interesting.

toraneko, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

thank god for tom.

ethan, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes, I'm with Tom and Ethan, Superman is miles better than Batman because he is the first, the original, the best. Batman is just aspirational yuppie scum (the bleedin' Bruce Wayne foundation, I ask you) with a teenage goth's interest in 'the dark side'.

Andrew L, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

batman is for kids without imaginations.

ethan, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Might as well say at this point that the Dark Knight Returns does an OK Batman but its Superman is a travesty, and that on the whole it's an above average but hardly masterful comic. Miller's best stuff in this vein was "Born Again", where he has the advantage of having the actual Captain America to caricature.

Tom, Sunday, 14 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

If you ask me, comics in general are for kids without imaginations. I've never read one, I'm basing this entire thread on which drawings on the covers at Atomic Comics were the nicest looking and who had the best cartoon show or movies. Comics = boring arse shite bollocks. But if I was going to pick a comic made for the unimaginative, I'd definitely pick Superman. He's so goddamned square! He's got unimpressive foes! He can do all the stereotyped superhero things, like jump and fly and throw shit, and he's a space alien. That's Superman in a nutshell. He's a superhero stereotype with a boring girlfriend and a big square chin. What's so imaginative about him? Being first doesn't make you best; indeed an awful lot of the time the originators aren't as good as the follow-ups, cos the follow-ups learn from the mistakes of the father.

Superman looks like Dick Tracy anyhow, what is that?

Ally, Monday, 15 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

two years pass...
Has the passing of years brought us to any newer conclusions?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 28 February 2004 21:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Like any self-respecting boy who reads comics, i prefered Batman cos he was darker and more violent and shit; plus he was possibly insane and holed up in Arkham hallucinating this world in which he fought all these grotesque villains that represented elements of his psyche, constantly trying to avenge his parents' murder. He's pure gothic. But oddly, if i think about it at all i tend to find myself more interested in Superman cos it really is a great mythic character; Batman is too, in the sort of Robin Hood folk-hero mode, but Superman goes back thousands not hundreds of years as a concept.
Essentially, remove the extraneous business of Metropolis and the Daily Planet and you've got ancient gods battling eachother, but with human passions. Not a lot of stories you can spin out indefintely with that (like a good pulp hero, you can do infinite stories with Batman and his props), but perhaps more resonance, ultimately.

pete s, Saturday, 28 February 2004 23:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Batman is the easier one to do pretty well - Superman can so often become very dull - but I do prefer Superman as a character, and I love all the appurtenances around him, that huge and wonderful mythos. Batman has never had a good supporting cast the way that Superman has, though he probably has the better villains. Batman's drive is interesting, but pretty one-dimensional, while I think Superman is a much more plausible human, despite not being one.I think it's the mother and father and Lana and Lois and Jimmy and Perry and all that that makes him more interesting. But they are clearly both magnificent characters.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 29 February 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't explain why, but I read this thread title as "Taking Sides: Superman vs. Botox

Skottie, Sunday, 29 February 2004 02:34 (twenty-one years ago)

three months pass...
well these are all great and you have refrrenced some great heroes i think you're forgetting someone: SPAWN! he's not the highest on my personal list of heroes but if you think about it he has everything rolled into one:

1.superman's invulnerability
2:spider-man's "every-day joe" quality
3:batman's creepy goth nature
4.the hulks RAGE!(tm)
5.wolverine's healing factor and totally anger
6:gambit's (my personal favorite hero) suave
7:that awesome costume
8:the fact that he was made by a creator who was already a legend.
9:comics and hell have a close relationship and since my Christian religion is all about redemption and forgivness i like there being a hero who is trying to escape and redeem his sins.
10.he had an adult animated series.

Brian James Pfaff, Friday, 11 June 2004 02:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Superman's floundering a little at the moment becase of the piss-boring trend for dark 'police-procedural' type stories for EVERYBODY including Ultra the Multi Alien, twinned with the essential wanky goth element that seems to have taken over all youth culture. But nobody's known what to do with him for 20 years or more.

I think Batman's the more fascinating fictional character to have a swim around in as he's changed so drastically with the culture, but right now, the whole 'dark driven avenger of the night' thing just feels so insanely dull...

Vic Fluro, Friday, 11 June 2004 11:16 (twenty-one years ago)

VFOTM

Tim (Tim), Friday, 11 June 2004 11:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The interesting thing about Batman is that for a supposed loner he has the most sidekicks of any hero operating (he's just moved onto his fourth Robin I believe, Batgirlz etc etc), its got so bad that even his sidekicks have sidekicks. Equally because he can be played as the tight lipped idiot there are so many stories you can tell with him on the side. But seriously as Vic says, there is only so far you can go psychologically with the "his parents were gunned down in front of him" schtick. His status quo is naturally more fluid, Sepuerman's iconic invenerabilty means that nothing sticks to him at all.

Pete (Pete), Friday, 11 June 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Get him out of bloody Gotham. He used to be like a superspy roaming all over the world solving strange crimes, now he just sits on a roof in fucking Gotham AGAIN and whines in morose captions.

Vic Fluro, Friday, 11 June 2004 11:34 (twenty-one years ago)

8:the fact that he was made by a creator who was already a legend.

bwahahahahahaha

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 11 June 2004 11:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Sepeurman: typo of the day.

Pete (Pete), Friday, 11 June 2004 12:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Batman never fought Muhammed Ali.

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Friday, 11 June 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Ally's Spidey vs Wolvie anaylsis was disproven a few times by Marvel.

Crickets Dance On Tequila Booty (Barima), Friday, 11 June 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)


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