Should bestiality be illegal? If so, why?

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Arguments along "because it's disgusting" lines are not acceptable.

― Barry S., Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Because it's in most cases cruelty towards animals, I think.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Not a C-Man thread!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:23 (twenty-one years ago)

But anyway, um, er, dur, pity the children. Yeah.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't see the "in most cases cruelty towards animals" argument, Tuomas. Firstly, I'm not sure that it is in most cases, and secondly, are you saying that when it doesn't constitute cruelty, it should be legal?

― Barry S., Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Imagine the CHILDREN. Can't really express why it's wrong in any simpler way.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:27 (twenty-one years ago)

How would you get/prove consent exactly?

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

If it purrs.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Or wags its tail.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

www.brutalanimalsex.com

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

www.tenderanimalsex.com

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

www.bugsbunnyconsentcountdown.com

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

and demands cunnilRINGRING Excuse me...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

If it says "eat me" what do you do? Get the mint sauce out? Call the television company because you have a talking lamb?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't get all the children stuff, Nick. I think it's an interesting philosophical question. We're allowed to kill and eat animals, but no allowed to have sex with them. Why? (I am of course not advocating bestiality in any way, I'm just interested in the philosophical implications of the question.)

― Barry S., Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:31 (twenty-one years ago)

"Yes, Esther, I was just shagging it when it started talking to me. It's quite amazing. No, it won't speak on demand. It needs to orgasm first."

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Transferrance of diseases?

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

"Marinated from within by the juices of the finest English lord."

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, human-to-human STDs haven't stopped people having sex with people.

― caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Disease would probably be less likely than with another person, I'd think. Unless, maybe, you're fucking a chimp or something.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the consent issue doesn't answer anything. Animals can't consent to being killed and eaten, and yet no one's seriously considering making that illegal.

― Barry S., Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

It's illegal and immoral for the exact same reason as incest is; because of the offspring. All morality comes from practicality at the end of the day (well, some of it does). Hundreds of years ago, someone shags a sheep, lamb-boy pops out a few months later, all the villagers think it's a daemon, hence they beat up anyone else who shags a sheep for trying to summon daemons. Innit.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:34 (twenty-one years ago)

This is, of course, somewhat simplified. "God has cursed you with lamb-boy for a son because you shagged that sheep."

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Pictures of lamb-boy please, Mr Carruthers. Possibly with Ned's head.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

That might have been a good argument hundreds of years ago, Nick, but it's a piss-poor argument now, when we know that there are no offspring involved in bestiality.

― Barry S., Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Lamb-boy is a biological impossibility. Bit like playing NTSC tapes in a PAL recorder. Just cause it fits in doesn't mean you will get anything out...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Morals need hundreds of years of backing before they become morals. There are plenty of things that seemed resonable hundreds of years ago that wouldn't now but that we still do anyway.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, Nick? Did your parents ever sit down and have the "the birds and the bees can't mate with each other to make bird-bees" conversation?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Barry, if you really want to, just do it.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:38 (twenty-one years ago)

massive xpost by the way, disregard that.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan; you've not seen my half-brother, have you?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:39 (twenty-one years ago)

He's called 'Flossy'.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:39 (twenty-one years ago)

He's not that bee-boy, is he?

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:40 (twenty-one years ago)

No; bee-boy is my cousin. They do things differently in Yorkshire.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Dude! But how cool would the world be if two creatures could always reproduce regardless of species!

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I've seen pictures of dog-boy and so forth in the newspapers, innit, ergo must be true.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan; you say that, but it's a bitch buying clothes for them.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

That half-zebra/half-horse thing to thread, innit. And those weird dogs where dad's a Corgi and Mum's a Doberman.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

So the bitch has the baby and then you send her out shopping for clothes????

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course! She's given birth to lamb-boy = the newspapers pay her loads of mopney for clothes = she can go and spend it on lamb-grows.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Loads of money for clothes? Loads of money for pictures.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, everyone's decided to take my thread as a joke, and fair enough, but I think it's an interesting philosophical point - all western countries have laws against bestiality but I can see no good argument from first principles as to why it should be illegal. If it's a question of cruelty to animals, as posited above by Tuomas, then laws against cruelty to animals should cover those cases where bestiality constitutes cruelty, without the need for a further specific law.

Another similar and more topical philosophical question: should cannibalism among consenting adults be legal?

― Barry S., Wednesday, 7 January 2004 11:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I was sure there was a serious thread on this in the olden days, but cannot find it. I cannot see any obvious reasons why bestiality should be illegal, cruelty to animal laws being satisfied, and other decency laws (most animals live in the open air after all. (and even those I find a bit shaky).

I think however consent issues can often be shaky when one party is more keen on eating you than you being eaten. Any minute now we should get someone suggesting the vegetarian cannible too.

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never really thought about the bestiality issue before, but I think I agree that there's no reason for it to be illegal. It remains illegal because there's no real constituency advocating bestiality (as opposed to homosexuality, where most countries have legalised it over the past 40 years or so).

As for consenting cannibalism, that strikes me as a pretty complicated issue. If you're insane, then consent issues no longer apply. It could be argued that no sane person could consent to being eaten, but perhaps that's a circular argument. Another argument might be that one shouldn't be allowed to be manipulated into doing something that is essentially against your best interests - not an entirely convincing argument either, because you then have to define what "best interests" are and you are once again in danger of circular arguments. As for the "eater", most countries outlaw euthanasia and therefore it's illegal to help someone to die, even if they're consenting. It's all a bit similar to that case a few years back when some guys were found guilty of causing bodily harm for willingly nailing each other's dicks to the floor, or some such thing. They took their case to the European Court and had their sentence annulled, I think.

― Jonathan Z., Wednesday, 7 January 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyway, how do you know it wasn't a lamb GIRL?

― Madchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

If bestiality is hurting an animal, it's wrong just like it's wrong to hurt animals while breeding them for meat/fur/eggs/milk/whatever. But there are double standards here, the law doesn't follow a clear moral code. If you'd treat your pet the same way farm animals are treated, you'd get sued for cruelty to animals; there are different standards for pets and production animals. Bestiality is also illegal, even though it would probably hurt an animal a lot less than keeping it constrained in a tiny for it's whole life. It all boils down to what people are used to: we (or you, since I'm a vegan) are used to eating animal products. We are used to loving our pets. We are not used to shagging sheep. The law isn't consistent in all it's aspects, and neither are our moral codes.

But, if someone could really prove some animals enjoy sex with humans, and there'd be no risk of diseases, I'd see nothing wrong with bestiality.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Because it had a willy, Madchen.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

We are not used to shagging sheep.
Speak for yourself; I'm from the Westcountry.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 13:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Next up on Fear Factor Joe Rogan fucks the shit out of an Ostrich.

― Chris V (Chris V), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 13:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Draft-dodging is illegal, too, but sometimes you have to take the higher ground. As long as you have genuine feelings for the animal (and respect is key), then follow your bliss.

Wasn't there an English fellow spotted loving a goat by a trainload of commuters awhile back, who was arrested? I thought Fortean Times made mention of it.

― andy, Wednesday, 7 January 2004 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 95 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

man's best friend with benefits.

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 9 August 2004 12:42 (twenty years ago)

: (((

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 9 August 2004 12:42 (twenty years ago)

lol @ red pandas

― Red Panda Sanskrit (ex machina), Monday, 9 August 2004 12:44 (twenty years ago)

Bestiality laws are simply leftovers from another age. I can see no good reason for bestiality to be illegal per se. On the occasions that it constitutes cruelty to animals, then it should be prosecuted as such. But I don't see that bestiality in itself constitutes cruelty to animals. Personally, I find the idea disgusting. Then again, there are plenty of sexual acts that I personally find disgusting, but I wouldn't wish to criminalise them unless someone is getting hurt.

― hmmm..., Monday, 9 August 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago)

how can an animal give consent any more than a mentally handicapped person?

― Red Panda Sanskrit (ex machina), Monday, 9 August 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago)

should the law reflect relatedness of the species involved? Should it be ok to have sex with a chimp, slightly dodgy to go with an orang-utan and a complete no-no to roger a rabbit?

― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 9 August 2004 13:29 (twenty years ago)

Sagan had a playful side as well. He provoked his Viking colleagues into using valuable payload space for a camera by pointing out that their microbial experiments might miss larger life forms, like Martian polar bears. When he researched animal intelligence, he once had to fend off sexual advances from the dolphin that played TV’s "Flipper." He claimed to have had many of his most creative thoughts while high; Davidson provides excerpts from Sagan's "pot diaries."

― Red Panda Sanskrit (ex machina), Monday, 9 August 2004 13:30 (twenty years ago)

"how can an animal give consent any more than a mentally handicapped person?"

How can an animal give consent to being killed and eaten? I don't think this is a consent issue.

― hmmm..., Monday, 9 August 2004 13:36 (twenty years ago)

"Ladies and gentlmen of the company, I'm just a caveman."

"I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists."

"Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the odd noises from these metal boxes scares me and makes me want to run back to my cave. Sometimes when I look up at the ceiling I see these strange tubes that light up at the flick of a wall stick, I wonder, did demons catch light from the sun and put it there? I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts."

― Red Panda Sanskrit (ex machina), Monday, 9 August 2004 13:40 (twenty years ago)

"how can an animal give consent any more than a mentally handicapped person?"

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB1M2EzYWFoBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAMwBHRtcGwDaWUtYmV0YQ--/s/206207

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 9 August 2004 13:52 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...

For Tuomas. And Henry. And Ken C.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 5 December 2005 15:19 (nineteen years ago)

for mankind. and sheep.

― latebloomer: The Corridor (Yes, The Corridor) (latebloomer), Monday, 5 December 2005 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

All those sheep have to go underground and prostitute themselves in dire circumstances, of course it should be legal!

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Monday, 5 December 2005 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

If a horse doesn't want to be bummed, it'll walk away. There's all the consent you need.

And you could never call it 'abuse' to give a donkey a blow job.

― Mestema (davidcorp), Monday, 5 December 2005 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

Because it's in most cases cruelty towards animals, I think.

― Dan (ROFFLES) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 5 December 2005 19:37 (nineteen years ago)

eleven months pass...

Bumpity.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 20 November 2006 11:21 (eighteen years ago)

I don't know if it makes any difference, but I enjoy bestiality, my dream is to fuck a wild Bear in the ass, all of my previous partners have been Horses, I'm vegetarian and I think the Meat industry is a much greater crime against nature. Bestiality should only be illegal for animal abuser people who tie animals up for sex and don't give them a carrot after. Coke is disgusting, Pepsi is way better.

-- cokesucks (pepsirules@pepsi

"and don't give them a carrot after".

^^^ the most wtf thing ever posted to ILX, and that's saying something.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 20 November 2006 11:26 (eighteen years ago)

i like how you focus on that and not 'my dream is to fuck a wild Bear in the ass' (par for the ilx course i suppose)

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Monday, 20 November 2006 11:45 (eighteen years ago)

It's the combination of the 2:

"i want to fuck a wild bear up the ass" = you are a mentalist

"it's not ok if you don't give them a carrot afterwards" = ......??>>?CXcC>C>wtfwtfwtf

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 20 November 2006 11:52 (eighteen years ago)

Do bears eat carrots anyway?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 20 November 2006 11:58 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe "cokesucks" has found out by now.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 20 November 2006 12:00 (eighteen years ago)

If I was a wild Bear, I'd eat a carrot for a shag.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:27 (eighteen years ago)

Midge Ure should've used that line.

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:31 (eighteen years ago)

Er, I think cokesucks was someone satirizing the previous discussion...

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:34 (eighteen years ago)

haha i missed this before! i wonder why this thread was revived on 5th December last year in 1/3 of my honour!

have you guys met my newborn son?

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

Because it's in most cases cruelty towards animals, I think.

Meat packing industry. We're talking about the same thing: meat packing animals.

― Bobby Ganush (Uri Frendimein), Monday, 20 November 2006 23:28 (eighteen years ago)

Nick was quite active on this thread.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 00:27 (eighteen years ago)

six years pass...

http://gawker.com/man-gets-15-year-jail-sentence-for-having-sex-with-his-480082925

― buzza, Thursday, 25 April 2013 05:13 (twelve years ago)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=155596704501608&id=131129733614972

― sleepingbag, Thursday, 25 April 2013 05:32 (twelve years ago)

i feel like i wouldn't call the police in this situation. quick nod, drop the keys on the coffee table and peace.

― dylannn, Thursday, 25 April 2013 07:48 (twelve years ago)

up all night to get ducky

― we're up all night to get picky (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 25 April 2013 07:52 (twelve years ago)

so you get more years in prison for murdering a dog than you do for having sex with it. and you wonder why we are a country in debt.

― frogbs, Thursday, 25 April 2013 12:04 (twelve years ago)

Animals, can't fuck them, can kill them.

Other people, the other way around.

Makes yer fink, dunnit?

― Mark G, Thursday, 25 April 2013 13:24 (twelve years ago)

john, i'm only dogfucking

― his army of super young artists produce, (contenderizer), Thursday, 25 April 2013 13:32 (twelve years ago)

Short answer to title question: it's a societal taboo and every society gets to have and enforce its quota of taboos**. Rationality is not always a better guide to these matters than simply following established norms, because reasoning must proceed from a set of axioms and it cannot retroactively reason its axioms into existence.

**NB: I think the quota is a few hundred.

― Aimless, Thursday, 25 April 2013 18:14 (twelve years ago)

three months pass...

http://www.objectum-sexuality.org/

Intimacy, Sex, and OS.
As a matter of course, this is the topic that rouses the most curiosity. The issue of sex with objects stirs a certain inquisitiveness in people that often leads to censure. And to ask whether we do "it" is like asking whether all couples in love are intimate. Most often the answer is yes but in some cases, as with any loving relationship, sex is not always present for whatever personal reason.
It should be noted that the term sexuality in OS does NOT imply the physical act of sex with an object just as it doesn't for other orientations. The term sexuality coupled with hetero, homo, or objectum implies the inclination towards such.
Also the definition of sex comes into question which is why we often steer away from this term. We use sensuality or intimacy to describe physically related expressions of love as this offers a broader definition considering our partners are not human and cannot be generalized. However, intimacy is very broad and what may be sensual for some may not be so for others.
What is the difference between OS intimacy and masturbation?
Clearly one of the most irritating questions we entertain when a person gets a mental image of us in “the act” with an object. Naturally, it would seem there is no difference because the question is being posed by one who does not love the object. OS intimacy is not instrumental manipulation to self pleasure. In the case of a person utilizing some object in this manner, the object is none other than a means to an end. To an OS person, our intimate focus is on the object we love.
Is OS a fetish?
No, objectum-sexuality is not a fetish. While a fetishist must have their desired object present as a catalyst to achieve sexual gratification, the love for our object is not based on a habitual psychosexual response. It is the object that captivates us on many more levels besides sexual arousal. Fetishists do not see the object as animate as we do and therefore do not commence to develop a loving relationship with the object.

― j., Sunday, 18 August 2013 03:42 (eleven years ago)

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID29593/images/david_face2.jpg

― cardamon, Monday, 19 August 2013 16:33 (eleven years ago)

Oh, this is a thing. There's a lady who has this? Is into this? who was in love with the Berlin Wall but then fell in love with the Eiffel Tower and married it. I shit you not.

Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_Eiffel

There's also some lady in love with a fence and a dude in love with his cars. He fucks the cars too.

Yeah, I don't know either, man.

― Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 19 August 2013 16:36 (eleven years ago)

I try to be open-minded and all about stuff but there are just some things I do not get.

― Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 19 August 2013 16:37 (eleven years ago)

I didn't know she'd dumped the Berlin Wall! She used to be called Eija Ritter Berliner-Mauer

― cardamon, Monday, 19 August 2013 16:37 (eleven years ago)

Or is that someone else

― cardamon, Monday, 19 August 2013 16:37 (eleven years ago)

Objectum-sexuals

― OH MY GOD HE'S OOGLY (DJP), Monday, 19 August 2013 16:38 (eleven years ago)

In defense of OS: a) don't loads of people get together to say how beautiful Michelangelo's David is and isn't at least some of that sexual b) at least an object can't cheat on you

― cardamon, Monday, 19 August 2013 16:38 (eleven years ago)

I think that's someone else!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2035996/Woman-married-to-Berlin-Wall-for-29-years.html

Oh my. I wonder if she and Erika Eiffel ever had beef.

― Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 19 August 2013 16:39 (eleven years ago)

Oh man - I can't believe I missed that dedicated thread. lol.

― Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 19 August 2013 16:41 (eleven years ago)

I can't hate Erika Eiffel for living her dream. also she has a porn star name.

― I tweeted too much and I am in jail. (crüt), Monday, 19 August 2013 16:45 (eleven years ago)

I love that song the Pixies did about her

― OH MY GOD HE'S OOGLY (DJP), Monday, 19 August 2013 16:46 (eleven years ago)

i shouldn't have given up faith so easily that there would be a thread already.

― j., Monday, 19 August 2013 17:21 (eleven years ago)

a dude in love with his cars. He fucks the cars too

ask sissymanwhore (NSFW)

― transmisogyny express (DJ Mencap), Monday, 19 August 2013 17:23 (eleven years ago)

All grist for future F Plus podcasts

― Your Own Personal El Guapo (kingfish), Monday, 19 August 2013 17:40 (eleven years ago)

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