Grad School: Classic or Dud

As muttered many times before, I went through the grad school wringer for some years -- when I thought of applying, I was still an undergrad and unsure What I Wanted to Do With My Life. I wasn't dead set on becoming a professor or anything but I did like the sound of teaching maybe on a junior college level -- I knew that my teaching skills would probably serve me better than my academic writing per se, and so events proved later on in particular. So I applied, not really knowing what to expect, and ended up being accepted at UCI with a four year fellowship -- it wasn't my first choice but my parents urged me not to look a gift horse in the mouth (and they were the only campus to accept me anyway, out of five!), so I went.

In retrospect having the fellowship was a very very good thing -- because it gave me the ability to leave when it ran out, and to not feel what I think is a real obligation on the part of many in grad school who rack up huge loans to see things through and pay everything off in the chosen profession, even if the desire has to some extent died. That may sound extremely negative but to provide a bit of balance, there was much in grad school -- in my case, English lit -- to enjoy. There was the discussion and deeper study of texts new and old to my experience, real camaraderie and friendship in the trenches, and in particular the joys of teaching writing -- which, had I known that I liked it so much beforehand, would have meant I would have applied to grad school in teaching writing and composition, and would probably be my career now, quite possibly. And even far more valuable than that was the external friendship formed on campus at the radio station and newspaper -- that's how I met donut bitch a mere couple of days after I came to the campus, and he's still one of my best friends ever. So for many, many different personal reasons, I don't regret my time spent in grad school.

But on a professional level, I was ultimately a washout -- something that many professors sagely and correctly noted was hardly unique and didn't mean I couldn't contribute something somewhere, just not in a formal academic setup. I did well enough but struggled at points, always felt like I was playing catchup and ultimately concluded that I didn't have the particular focus others were bringing to their studies -- but on the flipside I didn't feel like I was committing myself heart and soul to something that ultimately took the joy out of one of my greatest pleasures, out of simply reading. The pressure to always study and read up and become an expert in an area is a vicious (if, again, understandable) cycle of internal and external pressure, the more so because you have to think ahead to finding a place, making your name, publishing or perishing...it can reward those who look for particular challenges but again it is not for everyone. My studies towards my oral exams were desultory, my foci too cramped and rushed, and in the end I was tripped up by what I still think is a ridiculous extra language requirement -- though in respects that provided a nudge for me to pull the ripcord and get out. I was awake one more after a sleepless night and thought to myself "If I wasn't in grad school, I wouldn't be feeling so miserable." I repeated it to myself, and there and then, I left. I went through the motions of a leave of absence, I searched quickly to get a job and found it -- the same one I have now -- and as soon as I could, I got out and never looked back.

Some of the grads, I heard later indirectly, apparently thought I was chickening out, which is understandable. But others told me directly that they wished they could have the guts to do what I did, which I found very telling. Meanwhile, a former head of the department told me soon after that I was doing the right thing, and when I asked why, he ruefully and simply noted, "You have a job." The amount of grads being produced in many programs was not being matched with job supply, a situation that probably hasn't improved much, and which occasioned the great, cynical comment I overhead between one grad and another a couple of years before I left: "Do you ever feel like you're at the world's most expensive cab driver training school?"

I now tell people you should go to grad school for one of two reasons only:

1. Working in the professional, on an academic level or in a position that requires a doctorate, is EXACTLY what you want to do. It is your dream, your goal, your desire, you know the challenges and you will not waver. In which case, all power to you and I hope you do fantastically.

If that does not apply, then the only other reason is:

2. You can afford to get out, to leave and have no regrets. I stumbled into that with the fellowship by accident. For most, you should be able to have something already set aside, and if you're only doing it for the sake of knowledge and can afford to leave and concentrate on other things when you're done, great. Avoid loans at all costs.

I am asked every so often if I want to study to be a librarian. I am flattered but no. I have done grad school, I got an MA, whatever ego boost I needed I got. I did learn from the experience and I've applied that knowledge in quiet ways as I read and study other things. I could get more money in the field of library work with an MLS, but it would mean the wringer again, and I have had enough of formal school to last a lifetime, so I will not go back.

it's kinda like what ned said, only you spend three years surrounded by future lawyers instead of future english professors. and loans are pretty much a given.

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It is I think the absolute danger of grad school. So many of my peers apparently had no outlet at all or none that they would admit to -- I had the station, I had a weekly column in the newspaper, other things to catch my interest. I think too many people figured a monklike devotion was what was required, and so many seemed only to socialize with their peers in the department even. But you've GOT to have broader horizons.

URGENT AND KEY: if yer set on it, and have a choice b/w which grad school/program you attend, try to find out as much you can on what actual LIFE is like at the different schools/programs. and i mean the MUNDANE, WORKADAY stuff -- are the students nice, or cutthroat, or somewhere in between? what is the administration like (i.e., the deans, the support staff, the larger university bureaucracy w/ which you'll inevitably have to deal) -- is it efficient, or always out to lunch (literally and figuratively)? what is the career services/placement office like -- do they only give a shit about placing the top academic performers, or do they make at least a sincere effort to place everyone? what is the alumni network like? or the computer network? even stuff like how does the food in the cafeteria taste, or do you like the neighborhood in which the school is located?

remember -- you're gonna be spending a good bit of time at this place. info on stuff that i just laid out may be hard to get, but if i had it before i went packing it would have made a difference wr2 where i ended up going (in other words, "if only i'd known").

Grad school: i thought I wanted to go. Everyone I know who did is miserable and feels like they wasted their time. But they were all liberal arts majors and liberal arts + grad school = life of poverty and frustration.

e.g. "that sort of thinking is that you'll be immersed in this field, and unless you have a passion for it, it'll be intolerable": I know that personally I usually have to be forced into getting interested in a specific field, eventually developping a nerd-y obsession in whatever subject I've grown knowledgeable about. So, starting a PhD on something you feel passionate about will probably, as stated upthread, drain the passion out of you. If you love litterature, pop culture, or whatever, don't automatically assume you have to study it. You are probably better off enjoying a dilettante appreciation of it.
I think the PhD option is interesting for people who need frameworks to channel their curiosity and who enjoy research for research's sake, whatever the topic. I personally belong to that category.
Saying that, I haven't done a PhD, but I may be start one next Fall, in political science.

Except I can make the lame joke about "Grad school is where you go to gradually learn you don't wanna go to school no more".

I don't have any experience with it, but I see my mother, with her 10 years of tertiary education, and it does not seem in any way shape or form to have changed her job prospects at all. I mean, she did warn me, only go to grad school if someone else pays for it - scholarships, grants, etc. (But then again, age and gender discrimination may have something to do with that.)

If you want to be a professional academic, then I think it's fairly important. (Though not essential.) If it a direct qualification that will affect your getting a job (PhD's in hard sciences that lead to research jobs, medical doctoral degrees) then it's important.

But otherwise, for me, it goes along with that idea of vanity study, or probably more accurately, LUXURY study. Do it if you have the money to pay for it yourself, or if you have the raw talent or schmoozability to get someone else to pay for it.

Mr teeny, OTOH, spent six years in undergrad getting a double degree in ancient history and Classics (which is like history, anthropology, archeology, Latin, Greek, and another language) and then went on with plans to get a doctorate in Latin and become a professor but ended up only getting his masters. He got excellent marks but got fed up with the bureaucracy and academic culture, and discouraged about his job prospects. I've heard him say that he made the mistake of making his hobby his career.

He's now a few months away from graduating law school, he's already got a job waiting for him, and he's excited about the future. I guess my point here is that even someone who's very disciplined and responds well to an academic setting can get discouraged in the wrong situation. Oh and all that stuff everyone else said above too of course.

This is interesting reading:
http://yarinareth.net/Dorothea/gradsch/straighttalk.html

This is a highly interesting statement. I've said it myself, many times.

However, I start to feel very upset that it's true. It seems totally unbalanced that one should have to grow to hate one's career, and not allow it to be the thing that you love.

note: loans are not fellowships/scholarhsips/actual free money.

sure, a lot of the things people have said are true. but i enjoyed my coursework, had an excuse to move to london, got connections to get me a sponsored job in london, and have a masters from a 'name brand' school.

i did a degree in general studies (cue jokes about the need for generals these days) becuase i just couldn't narrow it down when i was in undergrad. once i'd worked for a few years and knew what area i wanted to work in, i was able to do my masters and get specialised learnin'.

that said, i'm not sure if i would have coped with a 2 or 3 year program, which seems to be the norm in the states. 9/12 months was just what i needed.

The whole 1 year masters / 3 year phd thing in england is weird!

Yeah, I was about to say...

haven't had the time to read through this thread but what's weird about it?

I'm really quite glad I went to grad school -- it was a great experience and when it ceased being great I got out. That said I am also - and this is U&K - very glad that I did not pay for any of it. One HUGE advantage of doing Ph.D. work in the biomedical sciences is that if you were a decent undergrad student and get into a good program, it won't cost you a dime. Just as important is that you will GET PAID as a research assistant/TA while you are in grad school -- not very much, maybe between 17 and 22 K, but enough to support yourself in starving-student mode.

I think I would have regretted going to graduate school if I'd had to take out much in the way of loans to pay for it. But having an M.S. in addition to a B.S. certainly upped my starting salary once I was in the workforce.

It really depends on what you hope to get out of it. I had some wishy washy ideas of wanting to come back to NY and thought that maybe writing opportunties would open up for me. I could have just moved back to NYC and searched for a job, but the master's program was a bit of an easier way to come back. I was so busy with my school work that I really didn't concentrate on freelance writing, though that happened to an extent a little bit later with the Voice.

One thing that doesn't get stressed enough I think is how rigorous grad school is. I love to study and I loved my field, but I was surprised at how much more work it was than college. At the time, I was working -- mostly reading -- all the time, and I would usually only go out one night a week, Fri or Sat.

I thought (hoped) I was finished with academica, but now I am considering teaching, and if I want to do this in NYC public schools I will have to take some education classes. I thought I would have to get a whole 'nother M.A., but luckily I have found that some teaching programs will offer less classes toward certification if you have already have a master's in the field you want to teach.

A. Nairn, are you interested in a specific field? Maybe we could tailor our responses to you. (Though these broad answers have been very interesting I think.)

I think the best case scenario would be to get funding for a PhD and drop out after your Master's if you don't find that it isn't for you.

Then again, it might be more interesting learning-wise, to do a program that isn't focused on producing PhDs and where you could concentrate purely on your master's. That is if you have/are willing to borrow the money.

after the 1/3 year programme you have to do postdoc (abt 2 years or more) if you want to apply for a lectureship: that's prob the case in the US too.

Going to grad school for free = classic
Going to grad school and having to pay = dud

I got out of 30 hours through AP classes, but over the next three years, I've only completed another 24, with an equal number of Fs. I've managed to pull all As for the classes I've completed, and it's not out of the question (assuming I don't break down again), to do well from here out.

But with the many Fs to start with, and the tested hours that don't give me a grade, my overall GPA is still going to be hovering in the low 3s, I think. I'm worried that I'm wasting my time, if I'm screwed in regards to a good MFA program.

Am I just needlessly freaking out and finding reasons to give up, or should I be seriously concerned?

1. If you find a faculty ally who want you in, you're in, as long as you meet the minimum requirements for admission. Networking may help you here. Make an appt w/ someone who is on this year's admission committee (find out from the dept. secretary) and go talk to them. Look them up first so you can talk about their latest work and why you want to study with them in that particular department. Ask the dept. secretary for the names of current grad students and talk to them--find out if it really is the dept. for you.

2. Every program is different. Some will value letters of recommendation and portfolio over grades, others won't look at you closely unless you meet a GRE/GPA minimum, often 3.5 in a PhD program. The way around this is (1.) above.

Also be sure you address the low GPA in your admissions essay. Give reasons for Fs--that you were working full time, had an illness, whatever. It does help.

(re: admissions, I didn't want to start a new thread for my neurotic whining.)

I have to admit that I think it shouldn't be counted as a true Master's degree, since most programs are exactly like an undergrad thing where you take classes, pass them, and then get a degree. You don't write a dissertation or thesis or anything that rigorous in most programs. What the fuck is up with that? You do assloads of group projects and case studies blah blah blah but I never feel like I got the immersive experience that other's got with their Master's. Or maybe it just didn't meet my expectations.

More and more, the MBA is a devalued Master's. I suspect that the academic world takes it much less seriously for reasons I mentioned above, but also because you can now buy yourself an "Executive MBA" for $150K at all the name schools by going on the weekends for 18 months. It just seems to me that crammed learning on the weekends does not result in a true level of mastery of a subject. Or maybe it's because I felt that the academic rigor was not challenging enough. It just seems to me that the MBA is becoming generic and not the accomplishment that it once was regarded. I'm still glad I went to business school instead of law school, though.

Don't give up milo if you want an MFA. Don't worry about getting a name program. It won't matter if you love what you are doing.

As for the whole hobby-as-career concept--when I graduated from undergrad, I could have taken a job in the music industry that I wanted very much. But in the back of my head I figured that I would be miserable if I couldn't love music on my own terms. Not taking that job was the smartest thing I ever did.

You're a VERY wise man (similar reasons apply whenever I answer questions about why I didn't try and become a professional radio DJ).

Awww...ain't I a corny earnest fuxx0r softie?

WUV.

gah

10% higher on math than english

also whoever said that standardized test scores measure standardized test ability is totally OTM.

no calculators in econ?!
oh well i wasn't planning on grad school anyways.

this is just reinforcing my awesome life decisions.

but I think grad school is good and useful!

but no calculators = lots of anger and frustration for me

really?
i was actually looking at the GRE website the other day... (no GRE-style test for grad school in Cdn schools so haha but was looking US programs) - i did the LSAT years ago and that was pretty intense but totally do-able. somehow i feel the GRE (general) won't be quite as demanding?

-- rrrobyn, Wednesday, 12 March 2008 16:17 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Link

Not so much demanding as retarded. I realise that a US grad school education >> UK PhD, but reading the GRE reminded me of the prospect of the first couple of years of grad school, i.e. being an undergraduate with a desk.

max and I were talking about the specialized subject GRE test in English lit, not the verbal section of the general GRE. I don't know that the general GRE is a particularly good indicator of performance in graduate school, either, but it's not a total joke like the subject test in English.

horseshoe do you know if most lit programs require the subject test or just the general GRE

all the ones i applied to required the subject test, but I don't think they all do. (also i applied like a million years ago! or at least five!) also I think they all kind of know it's a joke, so i wouldn't sweat it too much. i have no idea why anyone requires it. it speaks really ill of the discipline.

i did well enuf on the practice test that if i spent 10 days studying poetic form and the areas of lit im not familiar with i could probably ace it so im not really worried. i just dont want to have to spend time dealing with such a bullshit test.

The English Lit test is total crap; just make sure you know your Shakespeare, I remember 50% of it being just that.

I did the GRE and then it turns out that the school I really wanted to go to doesn't require it!

Same here! But I did absurdly well, and sent it to them anyway (and got in).

The English Lit test is total crap; just make sure you know your Shakespeare, I remember 50% of it being just that.

-- burt_stanton, Wednesday, 12 March 2008 22:06 (21 minutes ago) Link

haha no calculators in econ class? at the grad level? what are they teaching, mercantilism? fuck that nonsense

In the pre-registration-only days, that practice GRE question would have prompted a few random-g00gler threadstartings over on I Love Books.

haha no calculators in econ class? at the grad level? what are they teaching, mercantilism? fuck that nonsense

i believe the guy who taught the class has been told by the department that he's not teaching the class anymore.

he was not well-liked

i didn't finish the math portion when i took the GRE (ran out of time). still got a decent mark though. i sweated it pretty hard for the week leading up to it but it turned out to not be so bad, i guess

ARGGGGH FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK

HATE GRAD SCHOOL SO MUCH RIGHT NOW

Further proof grad school drives you nuts. (Skip down to the concluding paragraph.)

I just sent in my final paper. I'm done with my MA. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

one 15-page paper away from freedom

not started it yet :(

I haven't started my 20-pager yet either, well, I've done all the research and written up the outline and presented on it, but I do need to actually sit down and write. This weekend!

I did one 15 pager yesterday and another just now. Good luck with yours - it feels damn good to be done.

i already gave birth to a 20-pager, which turned out better than i thought

15-pgr due sunday and i haven't done a bit of research/outlining for it yet gah

Way to go ENBB!

Rah fellow MA person!

:-)

Thanks guys!

congrats!! do a snoopy dance

Oh trust me the snoopy dance (or at least something vaguely like it) has been done.

So what are your plans from here?

this is kind of sad in retrospect, knowing what's to follow:

it's a good way to ride out the bush years. you might actually learn something, too!
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:10 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark

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Good question!

Will be starting a job hunt next week (great timing I know) and hopefully land something working on either the policy or education side of a public health program surrounding the sexual and reproductive health of teens.

But now, after writing two 15 page papers in the last 48 hours, I'm going to bed!

Judging by yahoo answers, you are very needed...

awesome, e! i'm so jealous!!!!

we finished collective bargaining in our labor relations class tonight and did not come to an agreement, which sucks, but was kind of predictable. anyway, it's been so intense that i feel like i should be done now, but i have sooooooo much to do in the next week.

pappawheelie otm.
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yeah, after the 20pger was in i was like "i'm done now, right?" and...nope.

anyway, congrats enbb!

congrats E! When you regain consciousness, eat a nice dinner and buy yourself a CD and/or DVD box set.

...sigh...

Finished! Now, about a job.

I just became a grad student again, about 15 minutes ago.

remy! congrats dude!

thx markers. I'm going to find a school to teach in sometime in the next week. No pressure?

Congrats!

I guess the "what am I getting into..." thread has de facto become the "rolling academia is a sinking ship" thread, so I guess I'll write here that since getting my preliminary reading list for the Art history MA I'm starting in 5 weeks I've been excited!

I start my PhD next month!

My teaching assignment in the first semester: Hegel!

D:

Congrats Remy!

My feelings are grad school = classic, student loans = severe dud. Glad I did it but it can be prohibitively expensive. I thought about pursuing a phd, but forget it. In another life, maybe.

Be warned.

i post here ... well, not at all, for around 10+ years, lol. i still read the forums, tho, from time-to-time. anyway, my daughter just got into GWU's grad school! she'll be far away from our coral gables home, but we're beyond excited about this next phase for her. GWU was her first choice of grad school, and now, here we are! so if anyone has advice or experiences with anything there, whether it's academics, resources, living areas, safety concerns, anything, i'd be greatly appreciative.