How Come Europeans Look So Different?

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If we come from common stock, how come Europeans look so darn different? It's not just the strange lesbianesque haircuts, the odd parkas and very tiny eyeglass frames... it's the people themselves, I can spot them a mile away. The heavy brows, the strange skin tone, the fine little teeth....

America started in the 1600's, but the bulk of us didn't show up 'til the 1870s - 1920 or so. Is that enough time to really establish a genetic identity? (Australians look... well, Australian.)

Also, if Paris is the center of fashion, how the French dress so hopelessly weird?

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Cause we in America are a bunch of mutts, no? How many Europeans know of another European who--like me--is part Irish, Polish, Italian, Belorussian, and German?

― oops (Oops), Monday, 26 January 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

What you're really saying, Andy, is that all Europeans look the same. There are very distinct racial groups within Europe; you probably wouldn't have too much trouble distinguishing an Italian from a Finn, for example.
Your myopia is eerily similar to that old 'foreigners all look the same' viewpoint.
Three of your six differences are just fashion, and these aren't Europe-wide; also, you do find that people who live in different climes to yourself may well have a different skin tone. There's certainly no widespread genetic disposition to 'little teeth' in Europe; it is very easy to spot the 'othordont-smile' on someone who's been persuaded to pay a dentist far too much, a phenomenon which is largely American. So that difference would be economic. Or, if you'd like to continue your casual racism theme, stupidity.

― Canada Briggs (Canada Briggs), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

He never said they all looked the same as each other, just that they looked distinguishable from Americans.

― oops (Oops), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

He certainly implied it. It won't take too close an examination of the text to see that.

― Canada Briggs (Canada Briggs), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Will do. I don't think 'racism' is the right word - I'm speaking of 'caucasian' Europeans, of which I am derived. I have not mentioned any race other than my own. Perhaps 'stereotype' or 'generalization' is the word for which you searched.

Also, I think you read a sinister agenda into my casual observation - when I'm walking down Market Street in San Francisco ( a common thorougfare for visitors), I can tell the difference between a German or Austrian from someone who might be derived from Northern European grandparents who immigrated here in the 1890's for instance. I'm only pondering why a couple generation can so dramatically alter common attributes.

Likewise, while I agree that the obsession with white/straight teeth is overkill, I think that the US public health concern with good dental hygiene (drilled into our heads in grammar school) might actually be a good thing.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

okay he kinda did, but forget that. Maybe the question should have been "how come white Americans look so different?"

(double xpost)

― oops (Oops), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

It's cuz we're all part Cherokee, innit?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy, one generation is enough to "dramatically alter common attributes"!

― oops (Oops), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

How come Americans all look so different? America is far from homogenous! Walking around Vermont, it's quite noticable how different the people look from the ones in New York. Or even in the more affluent college towns in Massachusetts!

And while we're on the subject, why are Americans all so FAT?

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Americans are fat because we're eating all of everyone else's food, duh.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Oops in on the money - I'm less concerned about "the old guard" as I am about how long it really takes to establish a new people. The mix of Americans is vast, while the people of Iceland, for instance, are very heterogenous.

― Andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I meant homogenous!

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Are you saying Icelanders are a bunch of homos?

(Sorry, Canada's jumping to unwarranted conclusions is contagious!)

― Nemo (JND), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps Americans look homogenous to you because you are American. The same way all sheep look alike to the shepherd. As a visitor, I can tell you that they don't.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I would think all sheep would look alike to a non-shepherd. A shepherd might see subtle sheep differences that we don't.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

when I got off the plane in St. Louis after spending two weeks in Rome, I thought, my god, look at all the Germans!

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

How come all white people don't look alike?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Mixing my metaphors (because I typed it wrong - actually the phrase is "All sheep don't look alike to the shepherd") well, sheep look more alike to the shepherd than they do to other sheep...

If you're asking about how long it takes to establish a racial type - I think IIRC, there was a program on human evolution that reckonned it took about 10,000 years for a major evolutionary change, such as skin lightening from black to white, or vice versa. Small genetic changes can take a much shorter time, only a few generations, especially if the genetic material is limited to start with - inbreeding in small isolated communities for an example.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

MMmmmmm.... inbreeding.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris's link is actually quite interesting. I think you'd probably find it rather helpful.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

From now on I think I'm only going to answer questions by linking to Straight Dope articles.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I just read it, and it is quite interesting. The article, however, dealt more with traditional causcasian stomping grounds - I'm thinking more of recent colonials, and how they establish a new strain in only a short amount of time.

Australians seem to dervie more from just English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish, and so appear more 'British' appearing to an American eye? I think Americans have a lot more shit up in the mix.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Also note that despite the great "melting pot" aspect of America, recent immigrants to the country traditionally settled close to people of similar national origins. This doesn't just account for "ethnic neighbourhoods" in otherwise mixed cities - it also accounts for "ethnic states" - I mean, you'd be hard pressed finding a person in Minnesota who would not describe themselves as being "of Scandinavian origin".

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread actually makes me quite uncomfortable, because there is so much potential racism and nationalism that the topic is quite a minefield, so I will apologise if I am offending anyone through ignorance. I'm not an expert on the human genome.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

you'd be hard pressed finding a person in Minnesota who would not describe themselves as being "of Scandinavian origin".

Especially now that Dan's in Boston. ;-)

― Casuistry (Chris P), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha, true, but there you go. he's in Boston, isn't he? ;-)

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

It is a minefield, you're right. But aside from my somewhat jesting description of the 'European,' I do think that Americans are often quite gunshy discussing what is still one of the most divisive and problematic components of multicutural society. Remember Clinton's "Dialogue on Race"? Where did that go? Still, he tried - a Carteresque attempt at vision that I'm sure Bush won't touch with a ten foot pole.

But I don't want to open any can of worms! I'm just making fun of Europeans, pure and simple.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it has something to do with Nutella.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I've always been told that I look 'European', so WTF?

― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 26 January 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

But surely white people look like *this*?

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 26 January 2004 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

And tip-toeing gently down the garden path into more offensive things...

The "fashion" thing is also interesting to me. Or perhaps style. As an observer, it seems to me that Americans place a much higher emphasis on conformity, especially in terms of appearance. It's strange, I was discussing this with my mum in the car yesterday. She theorised that perhaps it was Americans' response to being such a mixed culture, that the emphasis on the conformity of appearance was a response to such an overwhelming obvious degree of difference.

I mean, no matter what Momus says, it is my experience that the UK tends to be MUCH more accepting of eccentriciy, especially in superficial things such as appearance, than the US is.

(Please, if you disagree with me, don't shout at me, tell me why, tell me what your experience is.)

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:01 (twenty-two years ago)

" I think it has something to do with Nutella...."

Yes! That's the answer I was looking for.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:01 (twenty-two years ago)

You racist asshole.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 26 January 2004 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Huh? Was that directed at me or Andy?

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Americans are a lot more sheepish... If you stand out, you get knocked down, that's why. There are also concerns about appearing to be of money. I think many Europeans are more accepting of their socio-economic position, but the American dream states that if you're not moving up, you've moving down. Well, if you don't have money, you try to acquire the trappings that allow you to appear wealthy. Credit cards help with this.

National Public Radio recently had a cool piece by an African-American teen girl describing her cultures obsession with fashion brands, even when they're outside of the means - with parents dressing small kids in designer clothes when they have a hard time with rent, no medial coverage, etc. Really interesting...

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy. He fell for my "Nutella" line hook & sinker.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 26 January 2004 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Europeans are necessarily more "accepting of their socio-economic position" but in the UK at least, there has been a strong tendency (with a few notable exceptions, such as the highly US-influenced Thatcherite Yuppie era) against using conspicuous consumption as class display.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

This is, however, changing, as Suzy has often pointed out in her rants against brand-oriented style.

Ha ha, you came here to laugh at the "Europeans" but actually we are laughing at the status-conscious, conformist, cookie-cutter Americans!

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I didn't mean it to sound so Dickensian... But I do think many Americans feel shame about their lack of wealth, and find their identities in materialism and spending. Look at the aberration we call Christmas!

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh no, we don't celebrate Christmas in Europe. Oh no, not at all. We conduct arcane rituals around a Yule Log instead, it's so much more satisfying.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I suspected as much.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

We don't have credit cards, debts, or this thing you earth people call "sexual dysfunction" either.

Oh wait, no, sorry, this isn't Europe, this is Mars.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought women were from venus.

― Felcher (Felcher), Monday, 26 January 2004 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Ooops, my mistake. Sorry.

No, wait, it would have to be Mars, cause, like, Venusians have that problem with going into debt over buying shoes, if you know what I mean. ::lays finger to one side of nose meaningfully::

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Whatever you don't have, we'll make sure to get to you. That's the new manifest destiny. Everything American will soon be available at a retailer near you.

Starbucks in France! It begins shortly.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Starbucks isn't from America, it's from Satan!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 26 January 2004 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, I love Starbucks. Gingerbread Latte is the best inventions they ever made. If that's your plan to take over the world, it's going to work.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

don't you have a dog to go walk or something? :p

― kephm, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

"Gingerbread Latte is the best inventions they ever made..."

Oh, this will be easier than we could have ever imagined. {Rubs hands together in a Ming the Merciless fashion.}

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

In this weather, Kephm? Have you been outside lately?

And another thing! This ENDLESS FREAKING COLD that you Americans call "weather"? Do something about it, STAT! I never thought I'd say that I couldn't wait to get back to England cause the weather was better.

― the river fleet, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Come out to the Golden State... we're just laying underneath avocado trees, sipping beer, swatting flies and peeling tangelos, with naked cherubic boys feeding us grapes poolside.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

the one thing about the cold that bugs me is when i am at a club and i have to go outside to smoke. the sub-zero temps ARE VERY VERY SOBERING, so i have to go back to the bar for another one, this leads to wanting another smoke.ugh

― kephm, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

bbbbbbut I can pass for a Rhode Islander!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 26 January 2004 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sorry andy, but Im still chuckling at your assertion all Australians look the same, like we're all some gelatinous blob thats part Nicole Kidman and part Paul Hogan.

I'll tell that to all the Italian, Greek, Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, Samoan, Maori, etc etc etc and most of all the Koori people here in Melbourne alone shall I? They should get a giggle out of it.

― Trayce (trayce), Monday, 26 January 2004 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

My apologies - I lived in Sydney for six months, and I know of what you speak (in Petersham - lots of Greeks). I guess I was comparing the great European emigration of the last three centuries. Obviously, many Australians came against their will, and these are the 'first wave' that I'm talking about - largely from the British isles, and have stayed closer to the UK ever since. (Cricket, the Queen on the money, etc.).

And yes, you all wear those slouchy hats with teeth on them, singlets and sandals and genetically attached VB cans.

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.albertandgage.com/images/ricola.jpg

― Allyzayy, Monday, 26 January 2004 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the real question here is, why is everyone so different from me? I mean, why bother? If it ain't broke...

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:10 (twenty-two years ago)

andy where in europe have you been that you think none of them are obsessed with designer labels and status objects??

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

that last link includes a toolbar installation - I would advise against clicking it..

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.littlegerman.com/images/littlegerman_lesson_vis.jpg

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.shopbulgaria.com/books/f9_4.jpg

EUROPEAN!

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 22:16 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.jwplace.com/graphics/quietman1.jpg

AMERICAN!

― andy, Monday, 26 January 2004 22:17 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a toolbar?

― johnny fitz (johnny fitz), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

well i guess you learn somthing new everyday

― johnny fitz (johnny fitz), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Australians seem to dervie more from just English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish, and so appear more 'British' appearing to an American eye? I think Americans have a lot more shit up in the mix.

-- andy (and...), January 26th, 2004.

So non-English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish are 'shit' to you? This is the most racist thing I've ever heard..

― Eladio Cruz, Monday, 26 January 2004 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Calgon, take me away...

― andy, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

The river I live close to flows north into Quebec about a kilometer away from my home in Vermont. On their side you find French and English canadians who are very distinct from one another, but they all look fantastic, dress better, are well informed, pay attention to personal grooming, and, for the most part are in good physical shape. Here on the US side we tend to resemble both French and English Canadians, because we are a mixture of both. BUT we are more slovenly, overweight, and in-general, unaware of anything that doesn't have anything to do America. In general, a bunch of dopes, comparitively speaking. I do generalize here for my friends with all the guns.

― jim wentworth (wench), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 03:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Noticeable differences (where genetics similar) attributed to - Cultural Attitudes, Fashion, Lifestyle, Climate, Economics. The end.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't tell you why Americans in general are overweight.

I can tell you, however, why I'm overweight -- because of the overabundance of great-tasting, quickly acquired, inexpensive fare around here. Because I spend so much time working or working toward something that eating has become my predominant means of entertainment. (It's easier to fit in a busy schedule than reading a book or going to a movie.) Because the way this city is laid out is such that most people around here would rather have every hair on their bodies ripped out one by one relentlessly than give up using a vehicle to get from point A to point B. Because the only experiences with physical activity I had as a grade schooler were with P.E. teachers so borderline sadistic that to this day, I would rather gouge my eyes out with red-hot pokers and have a colony of fire ants feast on my entire body than do a wide range of physical activities. Because I have never been what one would consider "thin", not even when I was at my healthiest and most physically active.

I don't know how this would apply to the rest of the overweight American populace, but this is my own explanation (or "cop out", depending on your attitude).

― Mellow Dee (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 06:42 (twenty-two years ago)

So if eating is your primary means of entertainment, why do you buy fast food? Doesn't seem very involving or exciting. Search out foods and recipes that are healthy and interesting. Spend time buying and preparing them. Make an event out of eating and a hobby out of consuming a nutritious diet.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 06:48 (twenty-two years ago)

oops -- "economic" concerns that have nothing to do with the Singapore issues, for example. In short, "fast food" = cheap food, and considering my current budgetary constraints, the current opportunity cost of purchasing more expensive but healthier fare on a regular basis is just far too much for me to take on at this time. So maybe it does inhabit a similar universe to that of competition policy, though the ramifications of this issue extend to just the single person (i.e. me), instead of an entire nation.

― Mellow Dee (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 07:24 (twenty-two years ago)

(Oh dude, I totally geeked out there.)

(And turned this thread into something completely different.)

(I apologize.)

(Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.)

― Mellow Dee (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 07:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I save A LOT eating somewhat healthy at home compared to if I were to eat fast food regularly. Fruits and veggies are ridiculously cheap.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't tell you why Americans in general are overweight.
AN overabundance on food and you/we demand that famous people are skinny (so we don't have to). ;-)

― nathalie (nathalie), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 08:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Obviously Americans are on average fatter, but apart from that, the thing that sticks out most amongst white American men is that they tend to have heavier features and be naturally more hairy than white Britons. They seem to look older.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

erm...this is one of the worst threads on ile *evah*

What's anyone really gonna prove?

let's just all agree: the UK suXor

― paulhw (paulhw), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

your mum

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

...the thing that sticks out most amongst white American men is that they tend to have heavier features and be naturally more hairy than white Britons.

It's all that neanderthal mixed in.

― Hunter (Hunter), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

It's hard to generalise about whole populations but it's interesting to compare the looks of those deemed 'attractive' by their various societies. There's definitely a difference between the aesthetics in the US and those in the various European countries. Big jaws have always been a feature of celebrity American men and recently that feature seems to have become popular with American women too. Also obviously American celebrity's have much whiter and more even teeth than their European counterpoints.

― Amarga (Amarga), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 09:23 (twenty-two years ago)

What is it with those Disney and Loony Tune T-shirts that all mainland Europeans wear?

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 12:21 (twenty-two years ago)

British or Aboriginal Australians: worst looking women in the world?

― paulhw (paulhw), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

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