AWOLGATE and the "Torn Document"

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First read this website recounting the early history of the "torn document" and its apparent insertion into W's files

Look here if you want more recent history on the torn document.

Then, read the best letter ever.

g@bbn3b (gabbneb), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 04:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Mmm.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 04:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Archivist Power, or something

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 04:13 (twenty-two years ago)

$20 says GWB gets re-elected.

dean! (deangulberry), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

But I sure as hell hope not. If dubya loses, dean, not only would I send you the twenty, I'd paint your house.

jim wentworth (wench), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 04:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Before we slip off New Answers, let's be more explicit...

1. It appears that in 1999, the "torn document" was not part of Bush's official military record
2. The "torn document" was discovered in 2000 at a Texas Air National Guard base by a friend of Bush who had been asked to collect the records of his guard service
3. That friend specified that he later added the document to Bush's file
4. Subsequent FOIA requests of Bush's record turned up the torn document (and later its untorn version?)
5. Today in the White House press briefing, Scott McClellan offered the untorn document, along with pay records, as proof that Bush performed the requisite service
6. In response to a recent request to the records center for records of changes made to Bush's file, a representative of the records center states that no such records exist. The representative immediately thereafter states, in an apparent non-sequitur, that changes are normally made at the request of an individual veteran. He goes on to state that when such veterans, or their representatives, request a change, they are required by federal law to do so on specific government forms that are later added to the record. He then states that Bush's file contains neither any such forms nor any record of informal change to his file. Later, in another apparent non sequitur, the response specifies that changing or tampering with military records is a violation of federal law.

Soooo....
1. It appears that someone added a document to Bush's military record and did so without providing documentation of that addition
2. That person violated federal law by doing so and/or the document was added by someone other than a representative of Bush (a government agency?)
3. The document is the only record of Bush's service (other than pay stubs, which need not reflect actual service) presented by the administration
4. If someone added something to the file, why could they not simultaneously have removed records from the file? (could this be determined by comparing the complete fruits of the 99 and 2000 FOIA requests?) What could such records have indicated?

(This is all in addition to the substance of the torn document itself, which appears to indicate that Bush satisfied his service requirement through transfer to a "paper unit" that rewarded him for service that he didn't actually perform)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 04:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The author of said letter is heavily involved, as a personal liaison, in a program that provides information about US soldiers lost in battle in WWII to their descendants. He sounds like the kind of guy who might have a problem with a guy who used his connections to dodge the draft, shirk the alternate service specially-arranged for him, and then run for President while apparently misrepresenting the nature of that service.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 04:45 (twenty-two years ago)

and hey, look at this, per Calpundit who is all over the story...

Albert Lloyd, the guy who first found the torn document on behalf of the Bush campaign back in 2000, and who at the time said he admired Bush and believed he had served honorably, now says that he's troubled by the absence of documentation of Bush's actual drills, and questions whether he will vote for Bush.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Unfortunately, America doesn't care unless Bush is receiving a blowjob, at this minute, preferably from someone underage, and there are admissions and photographs to prove it. And he lies about it. This MF is made of stainless steel in the eyes of the America that votes (or at least those that are allowed to make it to the polls. Or at least less than 50% of them.) WTF? How did this happen, again, that he's the president? I can't even wrap my mind around it; it's like living in Cuba or something.

webcrack (music=crack), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 05:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh please, America didn't care that our last president's sexual piccadilos. And I'm not so sure the America that votes is that thrilled with Bush's priorities (his poll numbers is low and dropping weekly.) But he'll ride 9/11 for all that it's worth and hope Diebold (or whoever) can swing the votes he can't.

(I understand your WTF though. He is baffling.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 06:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, the press over here are having a field day with BushCo vacillating all over the place about his Vietnam service while Kerry just looks at his watch and whistles. It's just sad that to underscore just how much BushCo look like bumblefucks, exhibit A is 80 Iraqis dead in suicide bombs over the last 24 hours. The worse it gets, the more a rich-kid president who skived because his daddy could clean up for him will become a liability.

I've got a good friend working at Reuters who forwarded me stuff about the Bush family connection to Thyssen during the Weimar republic and the Nazis; how utterly filthy and ash-covered their money is really. I would like to see the Jewish lobby get hold of that: GWB's Yale fees paid through the slave labour of the dying in Auschwitz.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

it's like living in Cuba

You would know because you posted that comment in between strapping barrels to the side of your Chevy to escape this oppressive land, right?

I would like to see the Jewish lobby get hold of that: GWB's Yale fees paid through the slave labour of the dying in Auschwitz.

You should know better than to believe anything anybody who works for Reuters has to say. That story is bogus.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I question how useful this is for the Democrats to pursue. There is no smoking gun, there are only questions, and that only breaks in Bush's favor. He's the President, I'm sure he can have guys in the CIA forge anything he wants or needs in the way of documentation. It's not going to get traction with our media (not enough sex, drugs or violence), and it's not going to get traction with the American public.

It just feels like one more ill-fated and desperate attempt to build outrage in the American people with some (relatively) minor issue. It's a stupid strategy. It didn't work for eight years of Clinton. (He's a drug dealer! He's a murderer! He's a rapist! He's... by the time they actually had a real scandal, they were dead in the eyes of the American people.)

They need to look at how Clinton beat Daddy Bush - he pounded hard on the economy. He didn't look for character scandals in Daddy's history (and there was a rape accusation or affair, no?), he hit him on the economy. The Democrats need to leave this petty stuff behind and just go for the economy and dead soldiers.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)

And actually, Stuart, no, the Nazi connections are completely true. Look it up, it's all a matter of public record. The reality has been inflated - Prescott Bush was not actively sucking Hitler's cock during the war - but the Bush family fortune from Prescott down is tied to the Nazi regime.

What doesn't get mentioned there is that the Bushes are hardly the only wealthy Americans to profit greatly from and cooperate with the Nazis up to and including the war.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 07:52 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html

Yawn.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 07:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I just think its ridiculous for someone to think that she and her Jr Detective League Reuters buddy know something about the Holocaust and Bush that the Jewish Lobby doesn't.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 08:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Stuart, my 'junior detective' friend is VP of financial news at Reuters, so suck it up. If I had to choose between you and her in terms of honesty, intelligence, competence in the job and the ability to conduct a debate, tough shitties for you, she wins. She wins so emphatically you might as well take your Wal-mart toys and go home, you snivelling little fucktard. She's seen her colleagues injured and killed in Iraq over the past year while you've been busy eating Hamburger Helper in front of your television and goading 'liberals'.

Also Milo, I said Jews, not necessarily Dems, might pursue it. I never said the Jewish lobby didn't already know about it. Mind, the way things are looking for Bush, he's losing trust on all germaine issues: the war AND the economy, as the spending on the former is having big, big repercussions for the latter. Kerry is smart to turn the tables on liberal-bashers when he calls GWB an extremist without getting vitriolic.

Both the Clinton and Dukakis campaigns were well aware, for example, that GHWB had a live-in mistress but did not use that information in either campaign because it was felt that it was the kind of classless thing Republicans do when they're down. Trust will, and should be, the reason Bush gets voted down.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 08:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I can understand how a VP of financial news for Reuters can fail to understand Prescott Bush's financial relationships in the 30s
and 40s. I mean, it's Reuters.

But I can't understand how choosing a personal friend of yours in terms of honesty, intelligence, and competence over a "snivelling little fucktard" stranger you're arguing with over the internet is some kind of VOTE OF CONFIDENCE for your Jr Detective buddy.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 08:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Stuart, you're not offering me substantive reasons why Reuters is not a trustworthy source of information, on top of insulting my friend. But I understand that insults are all you've got and I'll just have to carry on pitying you or something.

Milo's point above re. wealthy US families' ties to Nazi finance is spot on.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 08:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Where is your evidence that your friend knows what she's talking about Re: Prescott Bush?

I've posted a link to a summary of evidence debunking your claim.

You've called me a "snivelling little fucktard" with "wal-mart toys" -whatever that means - who sits at home eating Hamburger Helper in front of my television and "goading 'liberals'."

All I said to you was I thought it was ridiculous to think you had some kind of bombshell revelation for the jewish lobby.

You've got a lot of nerve accusing me of being the one with nothing but insults.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 08:46 (twenty-two years ago)

You posted to a Straight Dope link. Woo-hoo! We can all go home now, our work is done, Stuart's lofting the big flame of truth AGAIN.

Milo already backed me up. I asked you to clarify your assertions about Reuters, and you haven't.

Your flame of truth is a lit fart.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I do believe there's quite a bit of moral and factual distance between "The Nazi connections are completely true" - which is what Milo and the Straight Dope link state, and which I never denied, and "GWB's Yale fees paid through the slave labour of the dying in Auschwitz," which is completely fucking bogus.

And how about you knock of the whiney bitch routine? Just for this thread...

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.html

The author, Toby Rogers, has a good track record.

I don't need to whine but if you think I'm a bitch, again, whatever. And again, why do you cast aspersions on Reuters?

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

they STILL USE PIGEONS!!!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Eh?

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

in ye olde pre-telegraph days Mr Reuter would send pigeons to deliver news quickly over long distances... sometimes the pigeons would get lost so he started sending TWO, each w/the same bit of news on them.

it is a little-known secret that this infrastructure became so costly to maintain that it is still in use today

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

haha will ask T about the pigeons.

How'd your assignment go? Drinking with us tonight?

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:42 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.theaxcess.net/money_06_0203.html

it sux bananas, but i've at least made it nominally interesting now

i think Reuters stories can often be sloppy STRUCTURALLY - the lede is in the 3rd para, for instance, or three stories are crammed into one - but that's just time pressure. 15 seconds ahead of AP makes a difference. i'm sure they get things wrong from time to time stuart, every news outfit does as a matter of routine, but reuters is one of the only entities in the world (along with maybe one or two other orgz) whose facts you can simply repeat w/o attribution.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Those one or two orgs being AP and the BBC - both nonprofits.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Suzy, are you aware that the Toby Rogers piece is dealt with in the Straight Dope piece? Are you arguing that Cecil Adams is wrong and if so, where's your evidence?

Does it not seem odd that at the end of the Rogers piece, after all the accusations, all he demands is that Bush donate $1.5 million to a holocaust reparation fund? And that the John Loftus quoted and thanked by Rogers is the president of the Florida Holocaust Museum, who trained Israelis as an Army officer in 1973. Loftus's website reads like a neocon pro-Israel laundry list, except for the Bush-bashing Nazi links. Seems sort of odd all around. If Bush finishes laying the groundwork for taking out the Sauds and Arafat, I think any exaggerated debts Prescott owes the Jews should be considered paid in full.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Reuters falls suspiciously short of its impartial and objective goals when it comes to reporting on Bush, Iraq, and the war at large. I'm not especially interested in arguing about it though.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Rogers first lays the deaths of 6 million Jews on the hands of Thyssen and Bush, and then all he asks is that Bush pay the $1.5 Mil that Prescott supposedly got for his ONE share of Union Banking Corporation to a holocaust fund, and doesn't even do a inflation calculation on the dollar amount? Like "You, sir, killed the librarian and burned all the books... Please pays this $2.00 late fee."

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Loftus's website reads like a neocon pro-Israel laundry list, except for the Bush-bashing Nazi links. Seems sort of odd all around.

Why is that weird?

If Bush finishes laying the groundwork for taking out the Sauds and Arafat, I think any exaggerated debts Prescott owes the Jews should be considered paid in full.

The same Sauds who get invited to Bush Thanksgiving dinners? That's an interesting way of laying groundwork.

I'm more prepared to accept the views of Reuters journalists serving as correspondents in Iraq WRT the war than those of an armchair blowhard who doesn't do anything for anyone.


suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

From Reuter's own Editorial Policy Page: Reuters journalists do not offer their own opinions or views.

See, you're prepared to accept views they're not supposed to be giving.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:33 (twenty-two years ago)

But they do give them, despite their professed objectivity, and you and who knows who else accept them.

My problem with Reuters (though they are by no means alone) is not that they have their own views or their own biases, or that I happen to disagree with those underlying biases (thought that doesn't help). It's that they deny that they print their views, which is quite obviously untrue.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you can't keep trying to hurt my feelings. Never lose hope.

Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Aw ickle pobrecito, stop cherrypicking. I'm not wrong. The only 'view' they can put HAS to be backed up by research and they do it really, really well. Better than me, and certainment better than you. Again, what do you do for anyone apart from armchair neocon schtick?

Reuters news operations are based on the company’s Trust Principles which stipulate that the integrity, independence and freedom from bias of Reuters must be upheld at all times.

Reuters has strict policies in place to ensure adherence to these principles. We are committed to accurate and balanced reporting. Errors of fact are always promptly corrected and clearly published.

Reuters is the largest international multi-media news agency, reporting extensively from around the world on topics ranging from financial markets to general and political news.

Some Reuters coverage, including pictures and video, is of wars or conflicts during which all sides are actively promoting their positions and arguments.

We are committed to reporting the facts and in all situations avoid the use of emotive terms. The only exception is when we are quoting someone directly or in indirect speech. We aim to report objectively actions, identity and background and pay particular attention to all our coverage in extremely sensitive regions.

We do not take sides and attempt to reflect in our stories, pictures and video the views of all sides. We are not in the business of glorifying one side or another or of disseminating propaganda. Reuters journalists do not offer their own opinions or views.

The world relies on Reuters journalists to provide accurate, clearly sourced accounts of events as they occur, wherever they occur, so that individuals, organisations and governments can make their own decisions based on the facts.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I prefer to note how, after the past week's various low points for BushCo (his stumbling interview, the Vietnam service documents and their poor handling, Sullivan and O'Reilly's aspersion-casting, the recent massive car bombings in Iraq and their implications for what could be happening next), this is apparently all Stuart sees fit to address.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

(crikey, good morning PST Ned!)

teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(um, by which I mean, my, it's early for you!)

teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes it is! Quite why I'm awake I'm not sure.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i have to say bush's story does sound exactly like the description's of guard/reservist service i heard from shipmates while i was in the service, namely 'all you have to do is show up, and you don't even have to do that'. for a kid with connects i really can't regard his version as unlikely.

THAT SAID - i have no problem with the 'deserter' tag being thrown at him, it's truer than the 'draft dodger' tag that was thrown at clinton, and ALOT closer to the truth than the rightwing 'omg kerry protested vietnam and he was at a protest with jane fonda and then she went to hanoi = HE'S A TRAITOR' bullshit they're already starting to work. fight fire with fucking fire, esp. since dubya was pro-vietnam war but nevertheless chickenhawked his way to some tequila sunrises in alabama. john kerry's record in vietnam and esp. after is as close to unimpeachable as you're gonna get with that war. george w. bush isn't fit to lick his boots.

cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - i think i just 'endorsed' kerry! GO NAVY!

cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Woo!

I think anyone pulling the Kerry/Fonda connection or something close to it is pathetic, full stop. The implication that all who fight in a war and end up having serious questions about what was done and how it was carried out aren't worth the talking to or have somehow 'failed' their country -- which is what they're really trying to say precisely by honing in on the high profile example in question -- is contemptuous.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Spot on, Ned. Loyalty to country is not the same as loyalty to one administration's policies.

There has just been a R4 report on where the journalist said that Bush's prevarications were costing him dear, esp with vets who had neither connections nor the option of serving in the national guard.

JB did you do ROTC for school?

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - you greatly overestimate the amount of educations i gots suzy

cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

There has just been a R4 report on where the journalist said that Bush's prevarications were costing him dear, esp with vets who had neither connections nor the option of serving in the national guard.

Ah, be careful about saying that, you should know better than to believe anything anybody who works for R4 has to say. That story is bogus. And clearly all the people interviewed were plants by Reuters!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd imagine bush's slashing veteran's benefits and sending their sons and grandsons off to die on a hunch and then ducking their funerals cuz it might not project the image he wants is costing him some too. fucker.

cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

But he's doing this for a cause to fight Islamofascism! Oh joy! I await his knowledgeable apologist's posts confirming this.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

hehheheh...no worries Ned, my friend who works there is one of the best in her field and has nothing to fear from neocon laymorz.

Blount, am I correct in thinking that NOT ONE funeral or coffin landing has been attended by anyone to do with the gummint?

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

WaPo:

In a telephone interview from her Texas home, Killian's widow, Marjorie Connell, described the records as "a farce," saying she was with her husband until the day he died in 1984 and he did not "keep files." She said her husband considered Bush "an excellent pilot."

"I don't think there were any documents. He was not a paper person," she said, adding that she was "livid" at CBS. A CBS reporter contacted her briefly before Wednesday night's broadcasts, she said, but did not ask her to authenticate the records.

don carville weiner, Friday, 10 September 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

My husband *did not* have an affair. Killian's son also said that this was a 'mixture of fact and fiction' and that he was "very upset." Imagine that - not liking becoming an unbidden celebrity.

Meanwhile, CBS got confirmation from several of Killian's colleagues and his CO, a current Bush supporter, that the memos reflect his thoughts at the time.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

blog fite featuring obvious kerning issue!

don carville weiner, Friday, 10 September 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

they're not looking very hard - kerning is addressed in my "not any more" link to kosworld above. Or, if you'd prefer, try Atrios. Thanks for playing.

I actually think there's a much more obvious (if perhaps less technical) basis on which to argue that these are fakes. But I'm not sharing it.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 September 2004 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

CBS' response

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 September 2004 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Atrios knowledge of kerning is obviously limited and it shows in his post. The Kos post isn't any more convincing--neither address the kerning issue adequately at all. You've only shown that you didn't read the Powerline link--easy to say "thanks for playing" when you only play by your own rules.

But I'm not sharing it.

Oooooh. If only wingnuts were as smart as you.

don carville weiner, Friday, 10 September 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Jonah Goldberg from the National Review was on an NPR story on this yesterday and what was most annoying was how he chuckled and talked about Bush's young and irresponsible days. I think this is different from Clinton's philandering because of the attitude of "I can get away with it, so I will," sort of how he smirks when he makes jokes during speeches.

youn, Friday, 10 September 2004 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Don, want to explain how a computer can make some letters hit at a higher or lower baseline or topline than others? Look at your document again. Check the numbers in the date, all instances of the letter e, the 'd' in "Hodges," the 'r' in "running," the fall and rise in the word "interference," etc. etc.

Hmm?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 September 2004 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

transcript, via Drudge:

BUSH DOCUMENTS

EVENING NEWS WITH DAN RATHER

9-10-04

Rather Lead In: There were attacks today on the CBS News "60 Minutes" report this week raising new questions about President Bush's Vietnam-era time in the Texas Air National Guard. The questions raised by our report include:

--Did a wealthy Texas oilman-friend of the Bush family use his influence with the speaker of the Texas House of Representatives .. to get George W. Bush a coveted slot in the National Guard .. keeping him out of the draft and any probable service IN Vietnam?

--Did Lieutenant Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer?

--Was Lieutenant. Bush suspended for failure to perform up to standards?

--Did Lieutenant Bush ever take a physical he was required and ordered to take? If not, why not?

--And did Lieutenant Bush, in fact, complete his commitment to the Guard?

These questions grew out of new witnesses and new evidence -- including documents written by Lieutenant Bush's squadron commander.

Today, on the internet and elsewhere, some people -- including many who are partisan political operatives -- concentrated not on the key questions the overall story raised but on the documents that were part of the support of the story.

They alleged the documents are FAKE.

Rather: MANY OF THOSE RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CBS DOCUMENTS HAVE FOCUSED ON SOMETHING CALLED SUPERSCRIPT... A KEY THAT AUTOMATICALLY TYPES A RAISED "TH". CRITICS CLAIM TYPEWRITERS DIDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY IN THE 70S. BUT SOME MODELS DID....IN FACT, OTHER BUSH MILITARY RECORDS ALREADY OFFICIALLY RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE ITSELF SHOW THE SAME SUPERSCRIPT.

HERE'S ONE..... FROM 1968.

SOME ANALYSTS OUTSIDE CBS SAY THEY BELIEVE THE TYPEFACE ON THESE MEMOS IS NEW TIMES ROMAN.... WHICH THEY CLAIM WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE 1970S.

BUT THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY THAT DISTRIBUTES THIS TYPING STYLE.... SAYS IT HAS BEEN AVAILABE SINCE 1931. DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY ANALYZED THE DOCUMENTS FOR CBS NEWS.

HE SAYS HE BELIEVES THEY ARE REAL...BUT IS CONCERNED ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING EXAMINED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE QUESTIONING THE DOCUMENTS....BECAUSE DETIORATION OCCURS EACH TIME A DOCUMENT IS REPRODUCED.....AND THE DOCUMENTS BEING ANALYZED OUTSIDE OF CBS HAVEBEEN PHOTOCOPIED, FAXED, SCANNED AND DOWNLOADED.... AND ARE FAR REMOVED FROM THE DOCUMENTS CBS STARTED WITH WHICH WERE ALSO PHOTOCOPIES.

DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY DID THIS INTERVIEW WITH US PRIOR TO THE 60 MINUTES BROADCAST.

HE LOOKED AT THE DOCUMENTS AND THE SIGNATURES OF COLONEL JERRY KILLIAN.... COMPARING KNOWN DOCUMENTS WITH THE COLONEL'S SIGNATURE ON THE NEWSLY DISCOVERED ONES.

Matley: "WE LOOK BASICALLY AT WHAT'S CALLED SIGNIFICANT OR INSIGNIFICANT FEATURES TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S THE SAME PERSON OR NOT. I HAVE NO PROBLEM IDENTIFYING THEM.

I WOULD SAY BASED ON OUR AVAILABLE HANDWRITING EVIDENCE, YES. THIS IS THE SAME PERSON."

Rather: MATLEY FINDS THE SIGNAT'URES TO BE SOME OF THE MOST COMPELLING EVIDENCE...WE TALKED TO HIM AGAIN TODAY BY SATELLITE.

Matley "SINCE IT IS REPRESENTED THAT SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY HIS... THEN WE CAN CONCLUDE THEY ARE HIS SIGNATURES."

Rather: "ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT QUESTIONS COME ABOUT THESE. WE'RE NOT, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU'RE SURPRISED."

Matley: "I KNEW GOING IN THAT THIS WAS DYNAMITE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND I KNEW THAT POTENTIALLY IT WAS FAR MORE POTENTIAL DAMAGE TO ME PROFESSIONALLY THAN BENEFIT ME. AND I KNEW THAT. BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH. THAT'S WHAT WE DO. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT YOURSELF OUT. TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND TAKE WHAT COMES FROM IT."

Rather: ROBERT STRONG WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER FOR THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD DURING THE VIETNAM YEARS. HE KNEW COL. JERRY KILLIAN, THE MAN CREDITED WITH WRITING THE DOCUMENTS.... AND PAPER WORK... LIKE THESE DOCUMENTS...WAS HIS SPECIALTY. HE IS STANDING BY HIS JUDGEMENT THAT THE DOCUMENTS ARE REAL.

Rather: "WHEN YOU READ THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS, IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT THESE ARE GENUINE?"

Strong: "WELL,, THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE WAY BUSINESS WAS DONE AT THAT TIME. THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE MAN THAT I REMEMBER JERRY KILLIAN BEING. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE DOCUMENTS THAT'S DISCORDANT WITH WHAT WERE THE TIMES, WHAT WERE THE SITUATION OR WHAT WERE THE PEOPLE INVOLVED."

Rather: STRONG SAYS THE HIGHLY CHARGED POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE OF THE GUARD AT THE TIME... WAS PERFECTLY REPRESENTED IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS

Strong: "IT VERGED ON OUTRIGHT CORRUPTION IN TERMS OF THE FAVORS THAT WERE DONE, THE POWER THAT WAS TRADED. AND IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. FROM A MORAL AND ETHICAL STANDPOINT. IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE."

Rather: IT IS THE INFORMATION IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS THAT IS MOST COMPELLING FOR PEOPLE FAMILIAR WITH PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORD IN THE NATIONAL GUARD. AUTHOR JIM MORE HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT.

Rather: "YOU'VE STUDIED PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORDS FOR 10 YEARS.. ARE THESE DOCUMENTS CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORD AS YOU KNOW IT?"

Moore: "THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORDS AS I KNOW IT."

Rather: "PUT IT IN CONTEXT AND PERSPECTIVE FOR US ... THE STORY AND WHAT WE CALL THE COUNTERATTACK ON THE STORY. WHERE ARE WE RIGHT NOW?

Moore "I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS SOME INCRIMINATING DOCUMENTS HAVE COME OUT. THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU SHOULD REMEMBER, HAS NOT DISCREDITED THE DOCUMENTS. THEY'RE RELYING ON THE BLOGOSPHERE AND OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE PROBABLY KNOWS THESE DOCUMENTS ARE IN FACT REAL."

Rather Tag: The "60 Minutes" report was based NOT solely on the recovered documents .. but on a preponderance of evidence .. including documents that were provided by un-impeachable sources .. and interviews with former officials of the Texas National Guard. If any definitive evidence to the contrary of our story is found, we will report it.

So far, there is none.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 September 2004 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Don, I used to be a typesetter, and I know kerning. That, sir, is no kerning. The "y" is completely out from underneath "my" in line 2 and "any" in line 4, the two examples that the blog references.

If there was kerning in the documents, the first place you'd notice them would be in the apostrophes. Look at "wasn't" in line 3 and "don't" in line 4. Notice the gaudy spaces in the contractions? That's called no fuckin' kerning.

Joshua Houk (chascarrillo), Friday, 10 September 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Powerline tried to make it look like the y's fall under the preceding letters by tilting the document slightly. Look at an untilted version and the effect disappears.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 September 2004 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

this entire hoo-ha plays into Rove's hands, typefaces do not get voters energized, it amkes their eyes glaze over, it's perfect

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Friday, 10 September 2004 23:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Don, I used to be a typesetter, and I know kerning

Hey Joshua, I've typeset at a daily newspaper on a daily basis. I've used kerning extensively since 1986--yes, I kerned back in the old school days before typesetting software was even a glimmer in Adobe's eye. I am completely confident I know kerning as well as you think you do. As for Duncan Black or the link gabbneb provided to Daily Kos, the discussions there were amateur with regards to kerning. Sorry if your experience doesn't alert you to that Joshua.
Don, want to explain how a computer can make some letters hit at a higher or lower baseline or topline than others? Look at your document again. Check the numbers in the date, all instances of the letter e, the 'd' in "Hodges," the 'r' in "running," the fall and rise in the word "interference," etc. etc.

Hmm?

Piece. Of. Fucking. Cake. I could crank that shit out in 30 minutes.

Those docs could be very easily forged. Anyone who has spent any time with desktop publishing knows it. Which, I suppose, is why so many reputable people are willing to go on the record in the mainstream press saying that the docs look forged.

But are the documents forged? We don't and probably won't ever know--CBS appears a little gunshy towards transparency these days. Does the kerning appear suspicious? Yes, but it's far from conclusive as far as evidence goes.

don carville weiner, Saturday, 11 September 2004 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

so many reputable people are willing to go on the record in the mainstream press saying that the docs look forged.

the one who's a major Republican donor? or the one who defended John Demjanjuk?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 11 September 2004 03:39 (twenty-one years ago)

(Honestly, it doesn't look like the letters overlap to me.)

Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Saturday, 11 September 2004 04:12 (twenty-one years ago)

As for Duncan Black or the link gabbneb provided to Daily Kos, the discussions there were amateur with regards to kerning. Sorry if your experience doesn't alert you to that Joshua.

Well, my experience didn't alert me to that for the simple reason that I didn't read the Daily Kos.

Piece. Of. Fucking. Cake. I could crank that shit out in 30 minutes.

I could do it in five.

1. Print document. (alleged forger)

2. Fax document. (forger to CBS)

3. Make a copy of faxed document. (CBS - > White House)

4. Scan copy of document and publish gif or jpeg on website. (White House -> everyone and their blog)

Blotching a document like that is a wee bit simpler than adjusting the baseline for a few hundred letters.

Joshua Houk (chascarrillo), Saturday, 11 September 2004 05:42 (twenty-one years ago)

the one who's a major Republican donor? or the one who defended John Demjanjuk?

Actually, the first guy that came to mind was someone you referred to as"this (very smart) guy says these are in fact fakes"

So I guess he's not so smart, huh Gabbneb?

As for others, read the papers. They're there, and they're all not part of the VRWC.

And speaking of the VRWC, looks like they've gotten ahold of Hodges over at ABC:

"HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were 'handwritten' and after CBS read him excerpts he said, 'well if he wrote them that's what he felt.'

Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been 'computer generated' and are a 'fraud'"


don carville weiner, Saturday, 11 September 2004 11:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I could do it in five.

my point exactly. Don could be the biggest kerning expert in the world, and his expertise would be irrelevant to the late-generation documents we're looking at now. Show us the absence of kerning in Bush's official records.

but to address Don's point - the original freepi argument was that these docs must have been created in Word because they exactly match a doc created in Word now. so by arguing that the 'forger' played with the baselines to differ from Word (and, illogically, turned kerning on from its default 'off' setting in Word), you're conceding that the initial challenge to the authenticity of these docs is faulty.

So I guess he's not so smart, huh Gabbneb?

no, he's very smart (even though he's still assuming that the font involved is Times Roman - this has been disputed elsewhere - and, without expertise, saying the signature doesn't match - it does to my eyes). but he's not one of the 'expert's i was referring to. and he's not saying what you think he's saying. see his two most recent posts here for his current thoughts, which boil down to that these docs are authentic, not 'forgeries', but were produced later than 1972, as part of an historical "cover your ass" file, not necessarily by Killian, and not necessarily in the TXANG, and that CBS has never asserted that they were produced contemporaneously on a typewriter, i.e. the rightwing blogosphere is arguing about, and has gotten the media to focus on, an irrelevancy.

As for others, read the papers.

I am reading the papers. The initial experts cited were William Flynn and Philip Bouffard. Bouffard has now changed his mind, having determined that these docs could have been contemporaneously produced on an IBM Selectric Composer, which may have been used by the Air Force at the time. Flynn (the guy who helped defend not just John Demjanjuk, but also Brigham Young) is now hanging his objection on two grounds, both of which are faulty, and supplementing them with his lay opinion on what machines would have been available to the military at the time (never mind that even if these docs were produced contemporaneously on a typewriter, they may not have been produced in a military office). He also acknowledges that he is reviewing poor copies of the documents (see same article), i.e. he appears to be backing off slowly. Another expert cited by the AP - Sandra Ramsey Lines - is a contributor to a group that grooms female Republican candidates.

And speaking of the VRWC, looks like they've gotten ahold of Hodges over at ABC:

yes, it's entirely possible that the Texas political establishment (not the VRWC, as traditionally used) got hold of Texas Republican Bush supporter Hodges. another possibility is that Hodges is backing off because he doesn't want to have to answer questions about how CBS came to possess the documents - something he knows about.

and note what he isn't saying - that he did not see the documents in the 80s or 90s; that CBS does not have handwritten copies; and that the documents don't reflect what Killian told him at the time.

Want to explain why the White House is refusing to dispute the content of the documents or to ask CBS to retract its story?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 11 September 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Kevin Drum and various minions raise additional possibilities re Hodges (who, it should be remembered, is not CBS' only corroborating source):
- he didn't want to answer whether, as the documents state, Staudt pressured him about Bush
- he's still cooperating with CBS and wants to keep those who would interfere off his back

(of course, there's the possibility that he's Rove's plant here)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 11 September 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Because they figure they don't have to if all this welter of charge and countercharge keeps up? (xpost)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 11 September 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i heard that Rove planted a bug in his own office one time and then "found it" in order to make it seem like the campaign he was running was the subject of dirty tricks

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Saturday, 11 September 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I heard Rove came back in time and shot himself.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 11 September 2004 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

you're conceding that the initial challenge to the authenticity of these docs is faulty

I never made that argument one way or another. So I guess if you want to say I'm conceding it, then that's up to you.

I had not seen the Brouffard retraction when I posted, but as for Flynn you're using your lay opinion ("both of which are faulty") and hardly closing the case on whether or not the docs are forged. No one's looking at the originals, and CBS, unsurprisingly, doesn't want to open anything up to scrutiny. Your suspicion of Ramsey seems like a stretch, and of Hodges, conspiratorial.

Want to explain why the White House is refusing to dispute the content of the documents or to ask CBS to retract its story?

I have no idea. Although I would assume that the White House would rather morons in the press chase charges of forgery than discuss the relevant issue at hand.

don carville weiner, Saturday, 11 September 2004 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Come on guys, isn't all this talk of challenging authenticity a little bit rockist?

/v|ike Dixon (Mike Dixon), Saturday, 11 September 2004 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I almost forgot...
Anyone who can reproduce the 'forgery' on a 1972-73 typewriter gets $10,000 from this nincompoop:
http://defeatjohnjohn.com/2004/09/10000-question.htm

/v|ike Dixon (Mike Dixon), Saturday, 11 September 2004 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Rove not only has a history, he knows history - this event is quite similar, apparently, to one involving James Buchanan

recall another similar event in the 2000 race - the case of Juanita Lozano. Someone with the same name is now a residential mortgage lender for Texas Capital Bank. That bank's holding company, it just so happens, has a board member who was at Harvard with W. It also appears to be the successor bank to the BCCI-linked Texas Commerce Bank, which employed one Jeb Bush.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 11 September 2004 17:20 (twenty-one years ago)

CBS on Hodges:

""We believed Col. Hodges the first time we spoke with him. We believe the documents to be genuine. We stand by our story and will continue to report on it.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 11 September 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

pat cadell was just on tv. i'm pretty sure that he's not a winger pretending to be saddened by the endless trainwreck of the kerry campaign. i wish he was running for president.

dan (dan), Saturday, 11 September 2004 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

you want even more JFK references?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 11 September 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Pat Caddell was the pundit on MSNBC's Hardball that did nothing but complain about Gore and the Democrats, up to and through the 2000 election crisis. He was Zell pre-Zell.

Joshua Houk (chascarrillo), Saturday, 11 September 2004 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

LA Weekly: "Nobody crusades quite like Pat Caddell. He lost 49 states for Walter Mondale,
just as many for George McGovern, and all 50 for the New Coke."

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 11 September 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

US News: Docs released in February indicate that Bush did not receive enough points to satisfy his Military Service Obligation

Innocent Question - this is the Military Biography of George Walker Bush. Where is Alabama?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 12 September 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone who can reproduce the 'forgery' on a 1972-73 typewriter gets $10,000 from this nincompoop:
There's a 1970 Selectric I found in my uncles basement. I could forge up some documents in about 3 minutes. Does this guy pay in cash?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Sunday, 12 September 2004 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

The question is, how did Bush get an honorable discharge?

I dunno, how did this guy get one?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

the Bush memos were prepared at the time of a Nixon administration investigation of TXANG favoritism

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

this may be the closest we have to an answer thus far

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

now this is becoming clear to me. hypothesis - these docs are reproductions of docs that Bartlett and Allbaugh destroyed in the mid-90s, as Bill Burkett has said. perhaps Burkett is the source and/or the creator of these docs. some question his reliability. but now what may be his story about their existence is being corroborated by Killian's former Secretary. additional question - were there handwritten originals from which the original typewritten docs were produced and does CBS or Burkett have them? all of this would explain well why 1) so many are convinced that the CBS docs are 'forgeries', 2) the WH continues to play things very close to the vest, and 3) CBS stands by its story.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

and to go back to the letter at the top of the thread: "It should be noted that tampering with or changing Federal records is a criminal offense under Title 18, Chapter 101, Section 2071, and is punishable by fine and or imprisonment."

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Partisan Geriatric Texas Air National Guard Veterans for Indeterminacy.
xpost

Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 01:27 (twenty-one years ago)

both = indeterminate?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

the hits just keep on coming

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 02:16 (twenty-one years ago)

USAT gets another source on top of the Secretary

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 03:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Why do I feel like patting the back of my friends' hands, saying "Ohh, there there. It's over. They're fake. For 99% of normal unengaged Americans, Bush is cleared." I do pray for some kind of low dose cumulative toxicity, but I just don't see anything short of a picture of W with a needle in his arm, passed out in his flight suit next to an empty bottle and some lines on a mirror.

Look, a HURRICANE!

Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

btw, I'll lay off my cynicism, especially since I think you're doing a good job gabbneb!

Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 13:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Finally the Democrats are on the attack

So the Democratic National Committee has just issued a press release demanding that the Republican National Committee come clean on their involvement with the forged National Guard documents.

We know, we know! It's fucking brilliant! How can we possibly make a joke about this -- and yet we can't stop giggling. It's like a guy staring down the barrel of a gun demanding to see the bullets. It's campaign jujitsu! They're going to confuse Ed Gillespie to death. Right fucking on.

Gator Magoon (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I think my tolerance for politics is finally starting to wear thin

kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

possibly-related development noted here

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Weird thing about Roger Stone that I didn't know. He was running Al Sharpton's campaign

Machiavelli to thread!

Gator Magoon (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I enjoyed the monday nytimes article that accompanied the CBS/Rather story.

MILITARY SERVICE > Portrait of George Bush in '72: Unanchored in Turbulent Time

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/20/politics/campaign/20bama.html

(Jon L), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

eleven years pass...

wild horses couldn't drag me into this movie

https://theintercept.com/2015/10/27/george-w-bush-was-awol-but-whats-truth-got-to-do-with-it/

skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 27 October 2015 18:25 (ten years ago)


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