TS: Franz Kafka vs Thomas Mann

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It's a modernist literature frenzy today!

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"THOMAS, BRING YOUR GONDOLA OVER HERE NOW!"

From Deaf in Venice.

― MikeyG (MikeyG), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

(hey enrique, we have ilb now y'know)

― pete s, Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Have you read 'Buddenbrooks'? Oh let's take lessons from 600 pages of a family diary! Kafka.

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Talk me through 'Buddenbrooks'. Is it excerpts from a diary? I've only read Kafka, who was okay.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Why have you classed them together, then?

― MikeyG (MikeyG), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Lukacs made me.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

It might as well be/he's trying to look clever

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Kafka's hardly a modernist, either

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Silly Sailor -- fuck off, I'm not, don't make assumptions based on shit-all.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

How is Kafka not modernist?

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok yr just aiming at gleaning observations on these writers then

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

How IS he? Aside for dates? Parables, pretty modernist!

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Modernist in Beckett 'failure of communication'/'absense of closure' sense.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

After the fact, fine yes he is then.

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, given that so much of his stuff was published posthumously it's all kinda 'after the fact' for poor old Franz.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Kafka didn't even want it to be published. That makes him post-modern, no?

― MikeyG (MikeyG), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

post-modern before the fact

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Didn't really care too much for either Magic Mountain or Death In Venice, but I only whizzed through when I was young and stupid (inspired mostly by having read Mann's great correspondence with Hermann Hesse) and probably didn't really understand them at all well. I dunno, maybe I should go back to them, but first I think I'd like to read Doctor Faustus and Confessions of Felix Krull, Confidence Trickster, both of which look fantastic. Actually, lots of that early German/Austrian modernism looks fucking great - Schnitzler, Musil, Broch, Junger und so weiter...

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Hm, I just bought Broch's trilogy thing recently and it's burning a whole in my shelves. Also: Joseph Roth. Musil looks kind of daunting...

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

On a side note, I often wondered what Wittgenstein made of Kafka, considering they were both born into the Austro-Hungarian empire at roughly the same time and also shared a fair few personality traits. Recently I read a biography of Wittgenstein (by Ray Monk, very good), and indeed someone did pass on a Kafka novel to him, curious as to what he would think. Apparently, Wittgenstein's unimpressed response was: "Why didn't he just write what he meant?"

― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Musil looks kind of daunting...

I know what you mean about Man Without Qualities, I've only dipped into it, it looks great but shit, it's vast... But, there are also a few shorter works by Musil too: Tonia, Young Torless, some other ones I forget...

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Hm. Shame Wittgenstein's considered such an authority on everything by some ppl.
Kafka for me too. Funnier than Mann.

― pete s, Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey Jonathan, if you're interested in both Wittgenstein and Kafka, have you read any Thomas Bernhard? I read Wittgenstein's Nephew about a year ago, it's a brilliant book. Just about to embark on Corrections (supposedly his masterpiece), which looks pretty daunting - written as one long unpunctuated sentence, as dense and dark as a pine forest.

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't read any Bernhard - I've heard of him though. Thanks for the recommendation!

― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Kafka worked as a clerk in an insurance agency, he was living cubicle hell near day one.

― earlnash, Tuesday, 10 February 2004 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I find both slightly dull. Of Mann, though, I've only read The MM and Felix Krull. Felix Krull is the much easier read, and more "comic", but it didn't quite take off for me. Maybe it was the translation.

I love Hesse, though: particularly Klingsor's Last Summer, Steppenwolf, Narziss and Goldmund, and, yes, I even love The Glass Bead Game, his masterpiece. Siddhartha and The Prodigy were a bit thinner, in my opinion.

― All Bunged Up. (Jake Proudlock), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

four years pass...

Interesting thread. Been thinking about...comparables to Kafka and I can't really, haven't read Thomas Mann though - might be good to start on next

Just finished Amerika and liked it a lot, tho not much talk of it on any of the kafka threads. Prob didn't like as much as the castle, but still enjoyed very much, like the idea of being trapped by something less physically overt. Prob re-read this week to get a better grasp of it all. Any opinions on Amerika?

― vaqueros, Sunday, 6 April 2008 17:10 (seventeen years ago)

should i read magic mountain? you don't love me yet is turning out to be a disappointment.

― youn, Sunday, 6 April 2008 17:12 (seventeen years ago)

I've only read shorts from Mann, but adored them. A couple of friends of mine rave about Buddenbrooks, so that's the one I'll go for next (after my backlog of about 10 other books, mind you).

― emil.y, Sunday, 6 April 2008 17:42 (seventeen years ago)

you all need to read Musil, Man Without Qualities, it is a journey.

― Ronan, Sunday, 6 April 2008 22:02 (seventeen years ago)

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