All those sword & sorcery trilogies - do any ov them 'ave any literary merit whatsoever?¿?¿?¿

For laughs-a-minute -- Dennis McKiernan's 'Iron Tower' trilogy and its sequel two-parter 'The Silver Call.' The story I've heard -- McKiernan decided to write a sequel to LOTR about an attempt to retake Moria sometime in the Fourth Age, 'The Silver Call.' As a piece of fanfic, it's actually pretty good, but not the real thing, natch. The estate and publishers told McKiernan to pack sand, so he changed all the names and pitched it to other publishers. Their response: "Looks good, but seems like there's something missing, like a backstory. Why not write that first?" Hilariously, McKiernan did -- thus the 'Iron Tower' books, a complete and total rewrite of LOTR that *hurts*. One or two individual moments of flash don't save it from its insane, should-never-have-existed nature.

Which three? Tigana is still my hands down favorite.

I think Fiest is probably the best when it comes to writing stacks of books but them still being interesting and compelling.

Mmm...yes and no. I found the original Midkemia trilogy interesting but ultimately a slog, and haven't been tempted to progress further.

David Eddings would be second best.

He's (rather they're, since Leigh Eddings pretty much was cowriting everything, as David E. admits) far better than I first realized. The Rivan Codex was a bit of a revelation in that he had no airs about his work beyond simply writing a good story, not to mention his open love for Dunsany and his hilarious and pointed irreverence towards Tolkien. His books synthesize just about everything and get away with it beautifully.

I love all Conan books and Dragonlance books.

I've got some of Howard's originals around re: Conan, but that's it. Dragonlance I was *heavily* into in the mid to late eighties, second only to LOTR for near-obsession, but after all eight million spinoff novels I've left that behind. The original six books are still worthy enough, and Raistlin was the second great fantasy goth antihero (Elric being the first -- hey, nobody mentioned Moorcock yet).

Tanith Lee is my favourite writer but she wrote some pretty dodgy stuff in her early 20's.

Tanith is *wonderful*, I've been trying to get as much of her stuff as possible. The Arkham House collection is especially great.

Marion Zimmer-Bradley is pretty fantastic (she's even done a great trash romance novel or two). Anne McCaffery is another bloody good writer.

MZB I've still never read, but Anne ranks up there. I think she's suffering from Azimovitis with the continual extensions of the Pern story, but it could be worse.

To keep the Dragontorc up there happy ;-), Alasdair Gray -- recommendations? Gormenghast, Lem, and the Strugatskiis all grand, natch.

To keep the Dragontorc up there happy ;-), Alasdair Gray -- recommendations? "Unlikely Stories, Mostly"

"Lanark: A Life in Four Books"

"Poor Things"

"Something Leather" (NB this one a bit pervy in places)

Do let us know how U get on :)

I suspect loads of people will die. ;-) That nutty Dragon Reborn, he's always causing problems!

I am waiting to see what the presumed success of the LOTR films means, because just about any and every fantasy trilogy property will be snapped up if it hasn't already. Imagine the Thomas Covenant series with a power ballad soundtrack hit. Yeah!

I think david Eddings is also guilty of rehashing. I mean, the elenium was pretty much the belgariad all over again. how many times can a person read about chasing a magical stone all over a mythical world?

Robert Jordan wants to be Rand al'Thor.

A related question: Has anything in any of these books ever changed the way you view reality/your own life?

The only answer I have to that is Lackey's The Last Herald-Mage series which I read when I was 10 and caused me to realise I was gay.

Yep. Slightly bugged me for whatever reason -- Kay does similar alternate Europes, of course, but something about Williams' approach wasn't as sharp in my eyes. However, the one character who was the Eskimo equivalent -- Binabik, I think? -- was a nice riff on the expected types/stereotypes.

First I ever heard of Mercedes Lackey was from the SCA-obsessed freaks I dealt with, and as the two most vocal fans were in a lesbian relationship, I'm not surprised to hear that the books gave Tim a bit of a revelation about sexuality. ;-)

Authors who trump the expectations? I'd still say Kay if only because the Fionavar books were his explicit Tolkien-style homage, and then he started working in a much more flexible concept of morality and shades of grey rather than black and white, removing quests against dark lords in favor of much more down to earth struggles. (Tolkien himself, I've recently realized, actually allows for temptation and moral struggle more than might initially be apparent, it just doesn't seem that way -- and most of the imitators miss that extremely crucial point, which is why their own plots and villians can seem so cardboard as a result.)

I'd also specifically recommend P. C. Hodgell, who wrote two fantastic fantasy novels, _God Stalk_ and _Dark of the Moon_, in the eighties. Strong lead female character, very inventive riff on the epic fantasy theme. The third novel in the series, _Seeker's Mask_, has only finally just come out -- I haven't read it, and haven't reread the older books in many years, so I think I'll be taking a refresher course soon. ;-) Michael Scott Rohan's _The Winter of the World_ trilogy is also worthy, a turn and twist on Earth's prehistory specifically working with the Ice Age as the setting, and investing what is called 'the Ice' itself with a brooding menace.

If I had to recommend some older figures as well, you can't go wrong with Lord Dunsany -- _The King of Elfland's Daughter_ is especially fascinating -- and E. R. Eddison, whose _The Worm Ouroboros_ is the one to start with (the Zimimavia books are also worthy, though, and actually contain my all-time favorite scene in epic fantasy of any type, with the creation and destruction of our own universe simply a moment in someone else's time).

Exception: the older ones like Tolkien and T.H. White, who remain great because of the humanity of their work. Otherwise, this genre is very dud and very long past the artistic expiration date.

Most obvious author I didn't include in my initial posts besides LeGuin -- Pullman.

The rebirth of the Dragonlance thread reminded me of an episode at the beginning of secondary school when I earnestly and at length tried to convince my English teacher that David Eddings was better than Joyce - he'd made me read Portrait of the Artist as a Young man and I was severely disappointed by the shortage of (a) quests (b) pages. I'm not sure I ever won him over.

taken in isolation ther's not much btwn them, but on bodies of work edding's aforementioned repetition of story let him down i feel

I'd read LOTR, I suppose Narnia and a few other once-offs before I first picked up a Sparhawk book, and Eddings was great for a while, certainly- but aside from the repetition, his nudge nudge wink wink towards the reader is annoying, the writing and characterisation aren't really all that, and I think his stuff is much more teenage fantasy than the stuff I tend to prefer.

It's great entry-level stuff though, I think I've come out a little harsher against him than I probably am tbh.

I'd find it hard to look beyond Tolkien in terms of quality of writing alone in fantasy, though imo it's not as important as story/characterisation compared to most other genres. Stephen King/Peter Straub's collaborations are up there too I think.

I am on book 3 of George RR Martin's series and it's OKAY. Some things are finally getting explained and fleshed out TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED PAGES after they were first introduced (the wights). Major characters disappear from the narrative for ONE THOUSAND PAGES (Robb). If you can get past this, the series has some nice surprises.

I wonder if Ned ever read "Lanark"

god I was annoying back in '01.

Haha I was just reviewing those old recommendations. I have not read Lanark yet but I did finally get around to reading Alan Garner years ago, who is fantastic.

Some things are finally getting explained and fleshed out TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED PAGES after they were first introduced

HI DERE to thread to talk about Steve Erikson's way of explaining things.

i never started book two, my defence is that i started steven erikson's instead. and black company collection since. and robert jordan fdied, which confusingly sped up the publication of book 13? of WOT

HI DERE is a valuable resource in this regard, there's threads out there somewhere with some good ilx recommendations

Urgent and key:

Taking Sides: Narnia vs Prydain

This is probably the most regularly updated Fantasy Books thread:

I love the fantasy genre, lots, and I want it to stop sucking (OR: recommend me fantasy stuff that does not suck)

Terry Pratchett is awesome, though. (Just finished Going Postal last night; Pratchett needs to keep inventing characters as opposed to continuously going back to Vimes and Granny.)
― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry),

jeez harsh to sb a good dude for a 6 yr old opinion, but i half considered it