What to do when your team sucks beyond belief? (hockey content!)

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So--I'm a Pittsburgh Penguin fan. For the last several years they've conducted themselves like the new CBA is going to save them. But it won't. They've the oldest building in the NHL. Pittsburgh's actually a pretty good hockey town, but one of ~400K--there just aren't enough people willing to pay these prices for a horrible team. Mario holds out hope that he'll play simply to sell tickets. But it's just not going to happen. I live in DC now--the Caps have a nice new arena and on paper had a solid team before the current fire sale. I'm not sure they'll survive either.

The strike/lockout is going to fucking kill the NHL. On the plus side, maybe the league will end up being scaled back to a size where the competition is better (24 teams maybe?) Who knows if ESPN will even bother covering it in the US--they've shown some loyalty, but now that they have the NBA, who knows?

I guess I'll have to become accustomed to Pittsburgh as a solid AHL town. Certainly we don't have the claim on the game that Winnipeg does, and look where it got them. But it's not fun to watch. And it could have happened differently.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Jesus man at least you have the promise of Lemieux. I'm from Chicago. The Blackhawks' games are blacked out locally because the owner is a greedy, worthless miser. I think on ESPN's ranking of sports franchises, they were the lowest out of 121 or something. Forget it man, I don't even know the name of a single Blackhawks player and their next entrance into the playoffs will occur long after the Cubs win the world series.

― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, you *had* Alex Zhamnov and Steve Sullivan. And as an Original Six club you're at least likely to continue to exist.

My girlfriend gets annoyed when we watch hockey and I point out all the ex-Penguins. Of course, she's a Yankee fan. . .

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

*waits patiently for El Diablo to contribute*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

*praying that El Diablo isn't an accursed Rangers fan*

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Well as a life-long Detroit Red Wings fan, I'm probably persona non grata on this thread, but I know what you're saying. I don't know what to do about it. I'm not proud of what the Wings do, not anymore. The first two championships were great, felt really earned, were by teams comprised largely of talent that was drafted and came up through the organization. But everything since then has been kind of disgusting.

A salary cap would be great but it's not going to happen. Still, hockey is one of those sports where a team can catch lightning in a bottle. The smaller market teams are competing. Look at Minnesota last year. Or Carolina two years ago. Or Atlanta and Tampa Bay this year. Buffalo made the finals a few years back.

So I don't know. There are definitely too many teams, though. Way too many.

― Broheems (diamond), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I was scanning the standings a few weeks back and there were about four teams listed that I didn't even know existed!

― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I don't like Shanahan. I don't like Chelios, but I respect him greatly for playing without an ACL. I don't like McCarty. But anyone who likes hockey has to love Stevie Yzerman. And I respect Cujo greatly for his professionalism this year.

Note that the "lightning in a bottle" teams never won. Carolina is a failing franchise. As will Tampa be despite finally having a good team.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:00 (twenty-one years ago)

i respect cujo for not openly weeping at every pres conference this season (up untill a month ago). he turned his back on my leafs and got his¡

i am also irritated at how the leafs get older every day. like, in the course of a day the leafs age… about 5 days.

― dyson (dyson), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Leetch? He's a regular spring chicken!

No, seriously, that was a good pick-up.

― Broheems (diamond), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

well, this year is kind of armageddon, isn't it? win now or they will be too old.

of course the leafs are a bunch of goons anyway

x-post agreed aboot Leetch

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

We have an enormous bronze statue of Wayne Gretzky here.... it's situated outside the continually rebranded Sports Centre, which itself is very near Wayne Gretzky Drive (actually a redundant, go-nowhere commuter freeway).

Sadly this bronzy effigy has done nothing to raise spirits among our current crop of well-intentioned but ill-fortuned Oilers. It all boils down to the fact that we just don't have the money to hang on to a squad of good players.

― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

leetch indeed = good. but i'd like to see, for once, the leafs get someone not in the "twilight" of their careers in one of these trades.

― dyson (dyson), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

they fail because they cast aside Wendel

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought this thread was going to be about my Blues :( At least the Pens have an excuse for being terrible, the Blues are doing their best Rangers impression. 60 million in salary and they might not even make the playoffs. Baseball can't start soon enough.

The strike/lockout is going to fucking kill the NHL. On the plus side, maybe the league will end up being scaled back to a size where the competition is better (24 teams maybe?)

Yeah, I agree with the second part. If it takes a strike to fix the economic mess the league is in, so be it. Hopefully some of the pro-offense adjustments will be made and the league can remarket itself when it starts up again as being "new and improved".

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:36 (twenty-one years ago)

the thing is--no group of north american major professional athletes have ever taken a pay cut as a whole before. and the money is simply not there to pay NHL players on the same scale as the NFL, NBA, etc. this is a fact that the players will not accept easily. i fear the worst.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I have a bad feeling it'll take at least a year (and probably two) to sink in. Maybe we'll get some hot international league action to hold us over.

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 6 March 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

What is with the Blues? Just like my Bruins of a year ago. Played great until the holidays and sucked therafter.

― jim wentworth (wench), Saturday, 6 March 2004 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

The theory is they were playing over their heads for the first third of the season and that they had a defense-first plan to this season which got shot to shit when MacInnis and Jackman (thanks, Bertuzzi, you dick) got knocked out for the year. Also they have Doug Weight playing with AHL caliber wingers, negating any hope for a second line. They need to sell/trade what they can before the deadline and get a jump on rebuilding for the post-lockout season.

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 6 March 2004 04:27 (twenty-one years ago)

GO KINGS.

― ModJ (ModJ), Saturday, 6 March 2004 04:43 (twenty-one years ago)

horray, the leafs just got even fucking older¡

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:55 (twenty-one years ago)

haha, yeah I thought of you as soon as I read that today...

― Broheems (diamond), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

This is a horrible day in vancouver. Stupid Canucks.

― Sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:15 (twenty-one years ago)

that's idiotic what happened.

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh man, yeah, I just finally saw the Bertuzzi hit. Unbelievable.

― Broheems (diamond), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 04:48 (twenty-one years ago)

They're bringing the cops into this now. Jeez.

― Leee the Lee (Leee), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 04:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Apparently life-threatening violence during a hockey game is suddenly against the law. Who knew?

― Sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Marty McSorley

― Bryan B Sure (Bryan), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:42 (twenty-one years ago)

so what do we think will happen with bertuzzi¿

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I absolutely think he should be suspended througout the playoffs. As far as the legal thing goes ... man, part of me really thinks he deserves to be charged, but I fear for what it would mean for the game. But hitting someone from behind is just bullshit.

― Broheems (diamond), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:03 (twenty-one years ago)

BRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Mookie, the Penguins are the asshole of the NHL. Find a new team.

― Chris 'The Velvet Bingo' V (Chris V), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope Bertuzzi goes to fucking jail for that shit. The McSorley incident was nothing compared to this. It was nothing anyway but a tap on the shoulder. F-Brashear.

― Chris 'The Velvet Bingo' V (Chris V), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't see what Bertuzzi did (I don't get a lot of hockey news here in the UK). Any highlights online?

I do feel sorry for Penguins fans. The stats this year are shocking. As a Leafs fan, I'm hoping the old men can just stay healthy enough this year, but I'm not holding my breath...

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't they have a team of old men last time they won a cup?

― ModJ (ModJ), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Rob, go to hockeyfights.com and search the video section under the "Bertuzzi Incident"

― Chris 'The Velvet Bingo' V (Chris V), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Found it. That is some brutal, brutal shit.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Sure is.

― Chris 'The Velvet Bingo' V (Chris V), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

But yeah, too many expansion teams. My theory is that any city that does not go below zero degrees celcius in winter should not be allowed a hockey team (Dallas, Florida, Tampa, Annaheim, LA, etc).

After culling those, bring back the Winnipeg Jets! Hell, bring back the Minnesota North Stars too...

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

'Anaheim', I mean. I NEVER want to see the Cup paraded through Disneyland.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey, the Pens are 5-2-1 in their last 8! And only 9 points out of next-to-last in the league! (Unfortunately, that's like 20% of their current point total.)

I don't think Tommy Salo was exactly what the Avs needed in goal. Has Bertuzzi even made an apology or anything?

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 15:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha, the official line was "Todd is soooo distraught, he can't even comment at this here press conference, I think that speaks to the level of his distress, don't you"?

I heard this as "Todd, under the advice of team and personal counsel, is withholding comment pending investigation."

― Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 18:37 (twenty-one years ago)

The Avs needed Salo in case Aebischer went down to injury. I mean, would you trust your playoff run to Sauve?

I'm a Jersey fan since the early days. I remember wearing the old Christmas tree jersey around my Flyers lovin' high school. Impossible to believe that since they came into the league Jersey would win 3 cups before the Flyers could even get one.

― zaxxon25 (zaxxon25), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

But yeah, too many expansion teams. My theory is that any city that does not go below zero degrees celcius in winter should not be allowed a hockey team (Dallas, Florida, Tampa, Annaheim, LA, etc).

After culling those, bring back the Winnipeg Jets! Hell, bring back the Minnesota North Stars too...

Yes! Maybe I'm prejuidiced but I think it's ridiculous for a place like Tampa Bay to have a hockey team, I'd much rather have a team like the Jets or the North Stars any day...

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

move the coyotes to reykjavík¡

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

My patient wait is over! (She is not an accursed Rangers fan.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The Bertuzzi incident was horrible and ugly but the kid deserved to get his ass kicked for the Naslund hit. I just wish that Todd had taken him on face-to-face instead of nearly killing him the way he did. There are certain unspoken rules in hockey and one of the biggest is that you don't take runs at a team's, let alone the league's, best player. Back in the day nobody could touch Wayne, Mario or Stevie Y. Now, it's open season on the stars.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 11 March 2004 03:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Betuzzi was seriously crying at the press conference. He definitely should be suspended for the season, though it hurts me on a purely partisan level.
Jail would be an overreaction, I think.

― Sym (shmuel), Thursday, 11 March 2004 08:41 (twenty-one years ago)

He's gone for the rest of the regular season and the playoffs at least. No surprise.

― Bryan B Sure (Bryan), Thursday, 11 March 2004 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I think they should have suspended him for the rest of the calendar year--not that it matters, since there won't be a regular season in the fall. I wonder if he'll be invited to the World Cup...

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Thursday, 11 March 2004 15:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Doubt it. The suspension may extend into next season - Bettman's going to decide before training camp (if there is one).

― Bryan B Sure (Bryan), Thursday, 11 March 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Now it's what to do if your country sucks beyond all belief! Yikes!

― Bryan B Sure (Bryan), Friday, 12 March 2004 05:39 (twenty-one years ago)

"America has its share of dirty players, and certainly there are noteworthy Europeans who could be accused of the same, but clearly there is a trend here."

Oh come on. This Kelley article made my head hurt. Hockey has always been like this and I bet my life that the author thoroughly enjoys the roughness. Yes, the Bertuzzi his was nasty. If he had attacked him face-on, or gave the cheap shot but Moore was unhurt, then this wouldn't be an issue. I hate to sound like Don Cherry here, but if this dude doesn't like the game, the go watch golf or something.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Friday, 12 March 2004 10:39 (twenty-one years ago)

And I really do believe Bertuzzi was genuine in that press conference he gave. Yes he attacked Moore, but did he mean to break the guy's neck? Of course not. It was a dirty move as payback for a dirty move, and that's how it goes. He should have been suspended and he was. I mean christ, there's been some serious nastiness in the past:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/columns/top10/hockey_lowlights.html

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Friday, 12 March 2004 10:45 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.doncherryhockey.com/images/DonCherry.jpg

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Friday, 12 March 2004 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)

It's hard for me to talk about this thing, because when I was playing Bantam A this happened: a kid from Grandview sticked me in the collar, drew blood, and didn't get a call. Two shifts later I waited for him, submarined him hard, and hit him a few times, unforgivably, while he was down doing the funky chicken. I got suspended from tourny month and in the parking lot after the game the kid's dad threatened to kill me. It fucking sucked and they stripped my A - I ended up quitting during Junior. I didn't mean to hurt him at all, I was just so heated up I freaked. I don't think Bertuzzi meant to hurt Moore at all - if you look at the clip there's just no rage in the hit, it looks like a dirty but not bloodthirsty swing that he HIGHLY underestimated. Sometimes you swing with all your heart and dude is still standing, but sometimes you just want to send a message but end up doing some serious damage because you didn't set the controls right. I'm not apologizing for Bertuzzi but he's not a monster.

― LC, Friday, 12 March 2004 11:27 (twenty-one years ago)

take that, Maple Leaves!

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Friday, 12 March 2004 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

It's so hard for me to watch this game when people crawl out and start banging on pots and pans about how violent it is. And then say that "yes, there's violence in football, but not like THIS!"

At that point it's not so much that they don't watch, as much as they've never PLAYED any sport that demands as much as hockey does. The culture is so engrained in the game... it's hard to explain.

― ModJ (ModJ), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

thanks, mookie.
i really, really can't stand kidd. i wish we still had cory schuab as our back-up.

― dyson (dyson), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think Bertuzzi meant to hurt Moore at all - if you look at the clip there's just no rage in the hit, it looks like a dirty but not bloodthirsty swing that he HIGHLY underestimated. Sometimes you swing with all your heart and dude is still standing, but sometimes you just want to send a message but end up doing some serious damage because you didn't set the controls right. I'm not apologizing for Bertuzzi but he's not a monster.

But you ARE apologizing for his behaviour (you and all the other commentators prefacing sentences with, "I'm not saying what he did was forgivable, but..."). I mean, to say that "there's just no rage in the hit" seems wilfully ignorant of the fact that there was a
quote-unquote "bounty" on Moore's head.

Football and hockey are violent sports, yes, the point is that assaults and fighting and vicious physical attacks are tolerated (and encouraged) in hockey, and not in football or most other sports for that matter.

― don davies, Friday, 12 March 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

And you have to have "PLAYED" hockey to truly understand it? What crap. On the other hand, it'd be great if only people who played it were allowed to watch it. Maybe we can cordon them off in an arena once a week so they can all just beat the shit out of each other.

― don davies, Friday, 12 March 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

i've played hockey for 24 years, that hit was cheap as can be.

― Chris 'The Velvet Bingo' V (Chris V), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm going to the Kings/Sharks game Saturday with 2 Kings junkies.

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Now everyone's running me out of context, thanks.

― ModJ (ModJ), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:22 (twenty-one years ago)

The hit was cheap and gutless. Bertuzzi deserved a long suspension. Moore was no angel either, but will get (justifiable?) sympathy because of his injuries. The league are partially responsible. Bertuzzi is no monster. The law should not be involved in hockey. No, you needn't have played hockey, but you should at least understand the milieu of the game before pontificating (not aimed at anyone here, but at the vast majority of the US media -- did anyone see the laughable round able "discussion" on that crappy Dennis Miller show on this incident?).

There, that about covers it ;)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 12 March 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't get dennis miller - what was this "discussion" like¿

― dyson (dyson), Friday, 12 March 2004 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

here's a troll's view of the Bertuzzi incident

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Friday, 12 March 2004 20:04 (twenty-one years ago)

You wouldn't want Schwab as your backup cause he's injured as well, with a groin problem that may force him to retire. Jersey had to call up their 5-12 Albany goalie, of course he shut out the Pens in his first start ...

― zaxxon25 (zaxxon25), Friday, 12 March 2004 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

i am 2ice saddened by that news.

― dyson (dyson), Friday, 12 March 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

here is an interesting take on *bertuzzigate*.

[full disclosure:: i am a canuck fan,and in turn a fan of berts.although i don't like what he did, i do believe he is being made an example of and that the crime does not fit the punishment.]

― william (william), Thursday, 18 March 2004 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

"And you have to have "PLAYED" hockey to truly understand it? What crap. On the other hand, it'd be great if only people who played it were allowed to watch it. Maybe we can cordon them off in an arena once a week so they can all just beat the shit out of each other."

I respectfully disagree with the sentiments expressed here. There is nothing wrong with the assertion that there are certain elements and aspects of the game which are hard to understand for people who have never played. I don't think that ModJ is "apologizing" for the hit, he's just explaining it. Bertuzzi fucked up, and he got what he deserved. Nobody can believe that there was any intent to break Moore's neck. The last part of the above post is a prime example of the main problem with the whole incident. People who have never laced up a pair of skates or probably even watched a hockey game prior to this are weighing in with opinions and more often than not they're just talking out of their asses.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 18 March 2004 05:22 (twenty-one years ago)

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