Can there ever be an excuse for writing weltanschauung instead of worldview?

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Schadenfreude is good and useful because there's no real equivalent in English. But what's the point of weltanschauung?

― a.a. cummings, Friday, 12 March 2004 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

making yourself feel smart

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

it sounds great

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

What if you're writing in German?

― winterland, Friday, 12 March 2004 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Ein Märchen für dir.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I used the word glückschmerz in coversation the other day.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

were you at the Taco Bell drive thru?

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Wossat mean, Mr Nipper? Lucky...?

― Sarah (starry), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"Dude, there's Glucksmerz all over this bean burrito. EWWW!!!"

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

what's glücksschmerz?

― k (blue), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

You don't need and excuse to write in German, the language von liebe (I'm still learning it :))

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

btw, does weltanschauung really mean world view?

― k (blue), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Someone - Thomas Pynchon? - made the word "glückschmerz" up, I think, to mean something like "being pissed off at other people's happiness". We were talking about 'We hate it when our friends become successful' at the time.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

is there an excuse for "unheimlich"? I don't think there's a true English equivalent.

― pulpo, Friday, 12 March 2004 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Eerily enough, Pulpo, I disagree.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Uncanny!

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

no, I don't think "uncanny" or "eerie" don't quite have the same whiff of metaphysical dread about them.

― pulpo, Friday, 12 March 2004 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

unheimlich is eerily and/or extremely.

― k (blue), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

but i suppose you'd only use "unheimlich" in talking about art/culture/philosophy, unlike "weltangschaung"

― pulpo, Friday, 12 March 2004 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

not at all. it's used in the sense of "very".

― k (blue), Friday, 12 March 2004 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

(sorry, i meant in english, not german).

― pulpo, Friday, 12 March 2004 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think I've ever read 'weltanschauung' without thinking 'pretentious'. It may or may not mean exactly the same thing as 'world view', but that in any case is how people use it. Possibly you could use it when discussing Schopenhauer or Hegel without sounding pretentious, but otherwise... show me a sentence where it doesn't sound pretentious.

― a.a.cummings, Friday, 12 March 2004 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Show me a sentence where the phrase "world view" doesn't look pretentious.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 12 March 2004 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

actually you don't use it at all in german. you'd say philosophy instead.

― k (blue), Friday, 12 March 2004 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

If one is writing a paper for a class called "Identity and Modernity in 20th Century Latin American Art" I think "weltanshuaang" = guaranteed A.

― adam (adam), Friday, 12 March 2004 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

discussing Schopenhauer or Hegel without sounding pretentious
A tall order in itself. At least in L.A.

― Skottie, Friday, 12 March 2004 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

To avoid the pretetious aspects of "Weltanschauung" (capitalize people! It's a noun!), simply use the phrase "same difference" instead. This will keep you in touch with the common man.

― Skottie, Friday, 12 March 2004 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

i dunno, "weltanschauung" has that certain je ne sais quoi

― !!!! (amateurist), Friday, 12 March 2004 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Alternatively, when discussing Hegel or Schopenhauer, throw in the term "Schraubschluessel" to really get the party started.

― Skottie, Friday, 12 March 2004 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, there is absolutely no way to bring up Hegel without sounding like a pretentious ass anyway, unless you hapen to know some dude down the pub who is also called Hegel, so you might as well just go whole hog with the thing. I know a couple people who just bring up Hegel all the damn time for no good reason at all, everything is Hegelian philosophy somehow, "Well, that episode of Speed Racer which you are speaking of actually draws a lot on Hegel's theory of the blah blah blah" and I mean, I think I might respect them more if they just said "weltanschauung".

Tracer Hand once got really drunk and kept saying "weltanschmerzzzzzzz" in this creepy voice over and over again, that wasn't really pretentious at all and I quite enjoyed it.

― Allyzay, Friday, 12 March 2004 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"You know you're in the Ivy League when some ass relates the Care Bears to Kant's theory of the sublime" etc.

― Allyzay, Friday, 12 March 2004 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Or on ilx!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

It's kind of the same thing, buut with less rich people.

― Allyzay, Friday, 12 March 2004 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I try.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

To get rich, that is. Or free. Or die trying.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

there's no excuse for wang chung

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

...to not be rocketing up the charts

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Everybody read Kant tonight.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

dancehaus days

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 12 March 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

take your baby by the ears / and play upon her weltenschmertz

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 12 March 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

friend told me a joke just yesterday:

Der weinerschleiden. German for Vaseline.

― andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Saturday, 13 March 2004 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Tell him not to quit his day job.

― Broheems (diamond), Saturday, 13 March 2004 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

He's also going to record a solo project titled "Five Finger Fandango." Can he quit now?

― andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Saturday, 13 March 2004 01:13 (twenty-two years ago)

What did the five finger fandango say to the face?

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 13 March 2004 09:18 (twenty-two years ago)

there is absolutely no way to bring up Hegel without sounding like a pretentious ass anyway

I can't tell whether you want to put a ceiling on what we can say, read and think or whether you are calculating the effects of such talk on an imaginary/real audience. A ceiling is absolutely unacceptable but the calculation of effect isn't much better. If you've read Hegel and you're in a conversation in which referring to Hegel might help the conversation along, then why not just go ahead and do it? What's pretentious about that?

― run it off (run it off), Sunday, 14 March 2004 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

"Can there ever be an excuse for writing weltanschauung instead of worldview?"

well, since the english word 'worldview' did not exist prior to the translation of 'Weltanschauung', then maybe Weltanschauung is preferred - the concept is a German one, so why not use the German word?

― run it off (run it off), Sunday, 14 March 2004 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

antidisestablishmentarianism, muthas!

― Paul (scifisoul), Sunday, 14 March 2004 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

you know someone's loved mayer etc alot and doesn't want to go to bed when they're posting to this thread"

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 14 March 2004 10:30 (twenty-two years ago)

It's as inexcusable, as inexplicable, and as unpatriotic as using the Germanic expression 'Keep stumm!' when there's the perfectly good English phrase 'Keeping quiet'!

The heartwarming phrase 'Keep quiet!' has been in use for centuries in England's green fields and by her silvery coasts. Fishwives toss it merrily to and fro across baskets of fish, grocers bark it in markets, coal miners add merry Anglo-Saxon expletives to the phrase as they greet each other in cold northern towns at the crack of dawn. (Elgar begins to play softly in the background.) 'Keep fookin' quiet, Georgie!' they guffaw at each other as they descend in cage lifts deep into the bowels of England, risking their lives that we may sit in armchairs stroking our cats and warming our hands at the fire. It's thanks to the cheerful labour and stoical humour of these men and women, and countless like them, that we can sleep sound in the knowledge that the English tongue will never succumb to the beastly guttural vowels of the hun. If plain old, pure old English -- Anglo-Saxon English! -- is good enough for these men, it's good enough for me.

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 14 March 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i will respond with tin-eared sincerity:

i suppose one could argue that in an english-language context the word 'worldview' has been sufficiently overused and it might be difficult to invoke a specific meaning, in a philosophical context, using that term... and perhaps in that case the german word, by its very strangeness, can hold a more concrete meaning for rhetorical purposes. i've seen foreign words used in this manner, sometimes effectively. i.e. syuzhet and fabula instead of plot and story.

however sometimes certain authors do seem to pepper their writing with foreign phrases where it is immediately obvious that english equivalents would do as well--a common excuse here is simple wordplay, which is a fine excuse if it really is amusing wordplay. not always the case. often i encounter books and essays where whole phrases, or even paragraphs, are quoted from german or latin or whathaveyou, and left untranslated. in a european context, where so many readers can be expected to be polyglot, this makes a bit more sense; but in an american context, where people aren't likely to read anything other than english, it seems sort of self-defeating (i have the sense momus will say that it's americans who need to change their monoglot ways, and in a global sense that's probably true but in a local sense it's not an expedient solution). i should add that this practice seemed more common once upon a time (pre-1950s) where the readers of academic literature were a smaller group and could be generally expected to have had a classical education, i.e. reading latin and probably french and maybe german and italian too. but that sort of education is increasingly rare.

― !!!! (amateurist), Sunday, 14 March 2004 14:16 (twenty-two years ago)

"syuzhet" and "fabula", by the way, are russian formalist terms, which invoke a very specific theoretical context, a theory of art form and function. by comparison, in english, the words "plot" and "story" are used in so many different ways that one could see how using them would perhaps confuse the reader, although i think with careful writing it could be done. perhaps in russian "syuzhet" etc. have a similarly dispersed quality, i dunno.

in french you often read english words being used in place of french ones, not only in an advertising context where it's a combination of anglophilism and the need to stand out, but in academic or psuedoacademic contexts where, for instance, the english word "gesture" has a more concrete meaning--in a certain context--than the french word "geste".

― !!!! (amateurist), Sunday, 14 March 2004 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

how many times did i use the word "context" there?

― !!!! (amateurist), Sunday, 14 March 2004 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Another useful substitute is das Sportsuspensorium

― Skottie, Sunday, 14 March 2004 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

me = threadkiller

― !!!! (amateurist), Monday, 15 March 2004 10:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Fabula = new favourite word!

(No guessing for what contexts I will use it in though)

― Sarah (starry), Monday, 15 March 2004 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think you killed the thread Amateurist, I think it petered out because no one was that convinced that using 'worldview' was preferable to using 'Weltanschauung'

― run it off (run it off), Monday, 15 March 2004 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

sarah that new belt is fabula! so, should we order the crepes syuzhet?

― !!!! (amateurist), Monday, 15 March 2004 10:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Dude Ally I don't remember the weltschmerz incident at all! Are you sure that wasn't just like the sound of air being pushed through my lips into a puddle of beer on the table? Anyway, I like to the of ilX0r as a gesamtkunstwerk. That's why when I'm typing on here I wear a white jumpsuit with black writing on it, and replace some of the pictures on the wall with red X's.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:30 (twenty-one years ago)

You have truly tapped the zeitgeist.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 10:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, I like the thought of the zeitgeist running around at night in a white sheet scaring people. But that's just me.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 10:45 (twenty-one years ago)

That mental image is echt geil, Liz.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Erfurcht!!!

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 10:56 (twenty-one years ago)

English for runaways
[Englisch für Fortgeschrittene]

The Head-Off-Taker
der Hauptabnehmer

CircleWhoHeSentenceOffice
Kreiswehrersatzamt

Equaly goes it loose.
Gleich geht's los.

The motive holies the middle!
Der Zweck heiligt die Mittel!

My dear Sir singing club!
Mein lieber Herr Gesangsverein!

Sleepontrain
Schlafanzug

Have you already my gostop overmeadowed?
Hast du schon mein Gehalt überwiesen?

In my room is a train, and when I don't become another ceiling, I will undress.
Im meinem (Hotel-)Zimmer zieht's, und wenn ich keine weitere Decke bekomme, ziehe ich aus.

take you in eight
nimm dich in acht

and now I make me - me nothing, you nothing - out of the dust
und nun mache ich mich - mir nichts, dir nichts - aus dem Staub

to be heavy on wire
schwer auf Draht sein

Go-home-advice-corners
Geheimratsecken

Circle-run-together-break
Kreislaufzusammenbruch

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 11:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Mein lieber Herr Gesangsverein = karaoke master in Eeenglish!

― Mein lieber Herr Gesangsverein! (starry), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

worldview was too short
in haiku so i made do
with weltanschauung

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 11:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Ken, you're on fire today.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

St Pauli were the Weltpokalseigerbeseigers in 2002 when they beat Bayern Munich.

The Germans thus have a word for 'the main things Scots bang on about in response to England winning the Word Cup which is really quite childish'.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 11:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Ahhhhh portmanteau words I embrace you.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Or portmanteauwords, if you will.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the precision that the use of portmanteau words bring is the reason why the Germans are not funny. They can't do linguistic subtlety, and they don't appear to be obsessed with farting as a guilty secret of the human race, unlike us.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there a german portmanteau word meaning portmanteauwords?

Felix kubin used one in an interview but I can't remember it, even it's explaination : it was something about fighting your lazy dawg in the morning, if you win you get to get out of bed and if you lose you snooze or something like that, anyone know about that expression?

― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Innereschweinehundbekämpfung

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The assumption of the question is that you should always use an Anglo-Saxon word when it's available. This is a very silly idée reçue.

― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

How about denouement? Is 'ending' an adequate equivalent?

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Can there ever be an excuse for writing idée reçue instead of received wisdom?

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Or Je suis au-dessus de la lune, Garth. Or Je suis malade comme un perroquet...???

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 13:19 (twenty-one years ago)

"Can there ever be an excuse for writing idée reçue instead of received wisdom?"

I think it all depends on your Weltanschauung.

― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Oui, d'accord.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Mittelschmerz is a useful German word.

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

and sauerkraut

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

And there's a gulf of meaning between "lebensraum" and "living room".

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 15:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Sitting room? Parlour?

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 15:03 (twenty-one years ago)

"Denouement" isn't necessarily the end. It's just the moment after the climax when narrative tension is released. (So it is of course always spoken in la langue d'orgasme.)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 15:03 (twenty-one years ago)

la langue d'orgasme

Skidders to thread!

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 15:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Denouement follows la petite mort duh

― !!!! (amateurist), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 15:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Babelfish translates Innereschweinehundbekämpfung to Inside pig dog fight = this must be it! Thank you Colin.

― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Gern geschehen. I am, however, disturbed that you felt the need to confirm with the useless fish.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Short of asking for a precision, using the AquaticVertebrateOfConfusion was my only way of knowing if your answer was about my first question, my second, an x-post or a joke :-)

― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

My innerer Schweinehund could stomp Godzilla

― Frühlingsj4n (Wintermute), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

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